When does rank become meaningless?

[puunui]

But therein lies the problem. If you are practicing under an independent instructor and have no contact with a larger organization outside of your dojo, how do you judge if you're getting good instruction? If your instructor has a high ranking from an organization, it is easy these days to check into the rank requirements of said organization. I was in exactly that position at one time. It wasn't until I started attending events and seminars with other organizations that I discovered the weaknesses in the training I received. Did my instructor have a high rank? Not in the art I was learning. His outlook was that rank was unimportant.

Sorry to hear about that. I don't sense bitterness from you, so you seem to have recovered from that unfortunate situation and are now on the right track. But there are a lot of people out there who aren't as fortunate as you are in that regard. Koryu is especially difficult because there are so few qualified teachers, and as well as many who wish to think they are qualified but are not, for whatever reason. I read somewhere that high level teachers from certain koryu do visit the US and give seminars, which I believe helps.

Of the arts that I study, Hapkido is similar in that there really are few qualified teachers out there who are able to take students past 1st or 2nd Dan. Fortunately some of the best have immigrated to the US, so that helps.

For taekwondo, because it is so much larger, there are more who are able to bring up students to higher levels. Plus the nature of taekwondo, which is that the village helps raise the children, makes it easier to get bits and pieces from this instructor or that one.

 

[Sukerkin]

There comes a point in life when the only things that AREN'T meaningless are roughage and comfortable shoes.

And indoor plumbing, soft toilet paper, good dentistry ...

 

[puunui]

And indoor plumbing, soft toilet paper, good dentistry ...

One's life choices are also not meaningless....

 

[Cyriacus]

The question then becomes, when do you decide?

Whenever you feel like it. It aint complicated.

I stopped caring about rank when I ranked up for the first time, and realised I didnt get any better as a result. It was just a rank. I was still doing the same stuff. It was a gateway to learning more patterns.

 

[Carol]

Whenever you feel like it. It aint complicated.

I stopped caring about rank when I ranked up for the first time, and realised I didnt get any better as a result. It was just a rank. I was still doing the same stuff. It was a gateway to learning more patterns.

But that reads to me as if it is the advancement in rank that has become meaningless, and not the rank itself. Nothing wrong with that. A senior in the arts might not be focused on that either. Perhaps the are more interested in helping their black belts open their own school. Or they want to follow a calling that might not result in rank advancement -- such as holding free classes at a church for the disabled, or writing a book detailing what they have learned.

Perhaps the expression is hyperbole, but personally I prefer clarity. For a rank to be truly meaningless, that to me sounds more like a situation where the person has lost interest in the arts and has moved on. Perhaps they had a bad experience, or perhaps the found something new that captivated them more than training does...although this is something that I think would be more characteristic of a younger person in the arts, not a person of substantial rank like Puunui describes.

 

[Buka]

But that reads to me as if it is the advancement in rank that has become meaningless, and not the rank itself. Nothing wrong with that. A senior in the arts might not be focused on that either. Perhaps the are more interested in helping their black belts open their own school. Or they want to follow a calling that might not result in rank advancement -- such as holding free classes at a church for the disabled, or writing a book detailing what they have learned.

Perhaps the expression is hyperbole, but personally I prefer clarity. For a rank to be truly meaningless, that to me sounds more like a situation where the person has lost interest in the arts and has moved on. Perhaps they had a bad experience, or perhaps the found something new that captivated them more than training does...although this is something that I think would be more characteristic of a younger person in the arts, not a person of substantial rank like Puunui describes.

I think the opposite is true for many folks. Sometimes, the longer a person studies the arts, the less they care about what's around their waist. Even those that are parts of large Martial organizations don't seem to care. Sure, they wear their belt proudly, and they go through the awarding of another stripe by their organization, and all the accolades of the night that go with it, but speaking with them privately, away from all the rigmarole, they really don't give a damn. A lot of them, anyway.

What they do care about is the art, about learning and teaching, about helping people, about empowering students, beginners and advanced alike. They love the arts more than they ever did. They appreciate the rank and file system, for it is part of what they are involved in, and they know how rank can be used as a yardstick for members of their student body. But as for their own rank? Mezza mezza.

 

[Cyriacus]

But that reads to me as if it is the advancement in rank that has become meaningless, and not the rank itself.

Not what I said. Advancing in Rank doesnt make You better at anything. Oftentimes it just means Youll learn some new stuff.

Nothing wrong with that. A senior in the arts might not be focused on that either. Perhaps the are more interested in helping their black belts open their own school. Or they want to follow a calling that might not result in rank advancement -- such as holding free classes at a church for the disabled, or writing a book detailing what they have learned.

We must know very different people. Opening their own Schools, yeah. But Ive never even heard of the other stuff.

Perhaps the expression is hyperbole, but personally I prefer clarity. For a rank to be truly meaningless, that to me sounds more like a situation where the person has lost interest in the arts and has moved on.

Rank is not Experience. Rank is not Skill. Why do You think people get so uptight about 1 year kid Black Belts? Because Theyre comparing them to people whove ground their way through years of hard training for the same thing. Does it make the Kid equally skilled? Equally able to USE what They have learnt? Just because Theyre wearing a Black Belt? Put a Black Belt around My waist, and it isnt going to instill Me with some kind of unfounded skill.

Perhaps they had a bad experience, or perhaps the found something new that captivated them more than training does...although this is something that I think would be more characteristic of a younger person in the arts, not a person of substantial rank like Puunui describes.

*nods

 

[Carol]

Why do You think people get so uptight about 1 year kid Black Belts? Because Theyre comparing them to people whove ground their way through years of hard training for the same thing.

Well...if rank is meaningless, then why would it matter if a 1 year old has it? Alternatively, why would it matter that one has to be a black belt to begin teaching? I think rank has meaning to a lot of people. It might not be the same meaning...but it has meaning, nonetheless, wouldn't you say?

We must know very different people.

A whole 'nother world....er...hemisphere, at least :lol:

 

[sfs982000]

But therein lies the problem. If you are practicing under an independent instructor and have no contact with a larger organization outside of your dojo, how do you judge if you're getting good instruction? If your instructor has a high ranking from an organization, it is easy these days to check into the rank requirements of said organization. I was in exactly that position at one time. It wasn't until I started attending events and seminars with other organizations that I discovered the weaknesses in the training I received. Did my instructor have a high rank? Not in the art I was learning. His outlook was that rank was unimportant.

That is a very good point as well. There are benefits with having contact with a larger oganization in the sense that it is easier to verify credentials and having your ranking recognized nationally and/or internationally within your organization. That is also a problem as well because just you're recognized as a certain grade/rank in one organization doesn't necessarily mean you'll be recognized anywhere near that rank somewhere else. I guess the point that I was trying to make with that post was that it's up to the individual student to determine that they're getting the training that they're looking for. You brought up an excellent point that you discovered later on after attending seminars and events and networked with other martial artist that you discovered that there were weaknesses in the training that you recieved. Then again I'm sure that there are other students that are/were perfectly content with the exact same kind of training that they recieved.

 

[Cyriacus]

Well...if rank is meaningless, then why would it matter if a 1 year old has it? Alternatively, why would it matter that one has to be a black belt to begin teaching? I think rank has meaning to a lot of people. It might not be the same meaning...but it has meaning, nonetheless, wouldn't you say?

***EXACTLY***

A whole 'nother world....er...hemisphere, at least :lol:

Yay, We seem to be in inadvertant agreement!

 

[Instructor]

I am working on the next rank, not because of the rank but because I want to increase my knowledge. Really rank is just an artificial system for a teacher to see where a student is in relation to his peers. I personally think that most styles have gotten seriously sidetracked by the trappings of success and lots of stripes on a belt are an example of that.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Rank is both meaningful and meaningless at the same time.

It is meaningful because for one, a meaning has been assigned to it by whomever it was that issued it. It is means to the person that it is bestowed upon that they have met the requirements set by their school or organization to have the rank. It will always have that meaning.

It is meaningless because you do not need it to train or to get better; rank is simply an arbitrary designation for where one is in their training.

As for the importance of rank, rank is important within an organization if you wish to have certain rights, such as issue dan certificates or participate at certain levels of competition. Rank is important to the individual because it generally indicates that they have achieved a personal goal. For some, it is a means of having their ego stroked.

It becomes unimportant when you either have all of the organizational rights that you need or when you reach a point in your personal journey that you no longer need rank to prop up your ego.

 

[Master Dan]

Rank or the pursuit there of should be important becasue it requires additional training maintianing health and continued education. Our GM stressed that you should never stop learning till the day you die. I see to many over 40 to 60 giving up to pain and bad health. To many times saying it dosn't matter anymore is do to being to out of shape or motivated to train. If sport and jumping like a kid was all you had then rank has no motivation. Self healing injuries and other issues should be part of higher rank. I want to teach when I am 90 should I live that long.

Given the business side of TKD rank is everything related to marketing inflating rank any way possible ive have seen 4th dans run to USAT or others to get a 7th Dan and call themselves GM's so they can attract more paying customers even 1st Dans going out and creating the illusion of higher rank to operate thier own Dojangs.

Who signed your higher rank should also matter

 

[Twin Fist]

if you never want to teach? anything after 1st dan is just gravy

if you are gonna be a teacher? you have to have the rank to promote your students....

other than those two issues? rank never means anything

 

[Sukerkin]

That's a good point about the requirements of rank for promotion making.

My sensei is a sixth dan renshi which, according to the strict interpretation of the rules and customs governing our art means that 3rd dan is as far as I am going for now, unless a panel is assembled for the purpose of promoting me. The only reason why that bothers me a little is that when my sensei passes and, if I so decide, I carry on teaching, then I shouldn't really even be grading people to shodan, let alone nidan

 

[clfsean]

See that's what I like about TCMA's. There are no "ranks". That's a western thing we imposed on it & now the PRC is running with the notion with the Duan system.

In TMCA, there are no ranks. There's -- the teacher then the student. You know your role from day one. Everybody there is your sihing or sijye. Anybody comes in after you is your sidai or simui. Questions about skill or position relevent to training was (still is at times) handled literally "hand to hand".

Rainbow colors, titles, associations, etc... keep it. Simplicity rules.

Just my $.02 or whatever its value is today.

 

[Carol]

See that's what I like about TCMA's. There are no "ranks". That's a western thing we imposed on it & now the PRC is running with the notion with the Duan system.

In TMCA, there are no ranks. There's -- the teacher then the student. You know your role from day one. Everybody there is your sihing or sijye. Anybody comes in after you is your sidai or simui. Questions about skill or position relevent to training was (still is at times) handled literally "hand to hand".

Rainbow colors, titles, associations, etc... keep it. Simplicity rules.

Just my $.02 or whatever its value is today.

There aren't any in many FMAs either, but if I were to ever get to the point where my instructor felt I was strong enough to be a teacher, that would certainly have meaning for me. A rank doesn't have to be a belt color or dan grade for it to have meaning.

 

[Flying Crane]

When does rank become meaningless? Usually we hear of people saying this, but I think that it comes mainly from those with higher rank. For beginners, obviously rank has meaning, because beginners often times only get to learn material that the teacher deems appropriate for that particular rank. Is there a point where rank becomes meaningless? If so, when is that point?

Rank becomes meaningless as soon as you realize that it really is meaningless. Until you realize this for yourself, it has whatever meaning you assign to it.

 

[Jenna]

Thanks for the replies. I was thinking more along the lines of internal dialog. For example, I know there are people out there who have been training for what they might feel is a long time, but circumstances are such that they are unable to obtain rank promotions on a timely basis. And yet they see others who have trained for shorter periods of time receive rank higher than theirs, right or wrong. They may have kept up their studies, bought and read books, watched youtube, read webpages, interacted with others in person and online, but still nothing. And that can lead to some feelings of resentment or create a need to overcompensate by trying to "prove" their knowledge and ability. I think in some cases promotion relieves some of those feelings, but in other cases nothing seems to work.

I was wondering if there is a point in the journey where the person feels that none of that matters, and if so, at what point?

That is an interesting question.

I think rank is an external validation of the training and effort one has put in.

I think rank is only relevant against others that are also ranked by the same system.

In the example you have given, I wonder is there a reason a practitioner has not achieved the rank that is concomitant with their level of skill and time served? If so, then perhaps they have a valid reason to be resentful. If so then I think the basis for their resentment should be delved into. I am guessing that resentment itself suggests that rank is not meaningless to that person at that point. I think when it drifts into meaningless is when they have let go of the resentment for not achieving the rank they feel they deserve.

 

[sfs982000]

When I was stationed in Korea back in 92' to 93' I studed an art call Do Hop Sool and all the students wore black gis and black belts. The sabunim recognized a gup rank system, but you didn't get a new belt with each promotion and once you reached 1st Dan you recieved an embroidered black belt. I thought that it was an interesting concept how he ran his school and it didn't mean our training was any less intense, he just taught us the material for each gup rank and tested us when he thought we were ready, there was no set schedule and no testing fees. I really enjoyed the idea that our belts were really and truly only there to hold our gi tops closed.