When does rank become meaningless? Usually we hear of people saying this, but I think that it comes mainly from those with higher rank. For beginners, obviously rank has meaning, because beginners often times only get to learn material that the teacher deems appropriate for that particular rank. Is there a point where rank becomes meaningless? If so, when is that point?
When does rank become meaningless?
- Thread starter puunui
- Start date
Modesty and humility should be trade marks of a well seasoned practitioner. I don't think they forget what it took to get where they are at, there is just no need to advertise it.
Rank never becomes meaningless. If it did, nobody would test for the highest ranks.
How important rank is depends, in large part, on the individual. For some, it is everything. For others, it's just a sign that they've taken another step along their path.
But it's never meaningless.
How important rank is depends, in large part, on the individual. For some, it is everything. For others, it's just a sign that they've taken another step along their path.
But it's never meaningless.
Outside of the dojo, rank has little or no meaning. It is a convenient way to understand one's place in an insulated world of specialized training, and that of others.
It also has no meaning once they throw dirt on your face.
It also has no meaning once they throw dirt on your face.
sfs982000
Master Black Belt
I would agree with the above posts that rank never really become meaningless. At the lower ranks it does determine what material you're taught and helps organize the pecking order within your class. With the higher level ranks it still could determine what forms/katas are required (depending on your organization), but at the same time there does come a point in my opinion that rank becomes secondary to either the love of practicing or teaching.
- Thread Starter
- #6
Thanks for the replies. I was thinking more along the lines of internal dialog. For example, I know there are people out there who have been training for what they might feel is a long time, but circumstances are such that they are unable to obtain rank promotions on a timely basis. And yet they see others who have trained for shorter periods of time receive rank higher than theirs, right or wrong. They may have kept up their studies, bought and read books, watched youtube, read webpages, interacted with others in person and online, but still nothing. And that can lead to some feelings of resentment or create a need to overcompensate by trying to "prove" their knowledge and ability. I think in some cases promotion relieves some of those feelings, but in other cases nothing seems to work.
I was wondering if there is a point in the journey where the person feels that none of that matters, and if so, at what point?
I was wondering if there is a point in the journey where the person feels that none of that matters, and if so, at what point?
dancingalone
Grandmaster
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It depends on the art, the local customs and expectations, and the individual goals of the person.
I have very tangible reasons for wishiing to attain 4th dan in taekwondo since I cannot obtain certification for my students on my own without the distinction. As a school owner I need that ability sooner or later, preferably sooner. I suppose once I reach that level, further rank within TKD will have little meaning for me, other than as a nice mark of recognition,
I have never been overly concerned with what rank I possessed before. Knowledge and skill has always been more important to me than dan levels or pretty certificates. It took me 7 years to reach nidan after getting my shodan in Goju-ryu karate and I didn't chafe at all about it since my teacher continued to teach me new material normally reserved for higher ranks all during the whole time. If he hadn't, I might have been resentful to be honest.
shihansmurf
Black Belt
I would have to say when the attainment of rank becomes more important than the skill and knowledge the rank is supposed to represent. Some folks keep chasing the next shiney belt/red stripe/trophy/whatever and loose focus on what the rank represents.
For me, the last time a test was really important to me was for 3rd Dan. I was badgered into the test for 4th, and if it hadn't been so important to my teacher that I make 5th prior to his death I wouldn't have tested. I don't see any reason to advance to 6th or higher. Additionally, there are only a handfull of people that I respect personally enough to value their assessment of my skill and knowledge that I don't concern myself overly much with putting on anything more than I have. There are a couple of people that I look on as teachers, but aside from them, I can't see accepting rank from anyone at this point.
Besides, the only belt that really matters in the WWE World title and I don't want to fight Hulk Hogan. He is a big dude.
Mark
P.S. I know that Hogan isn't the champ but I have no idea who is. Besides, I'd rather fight him than Ric Flair. Woo!
For me, the last time a test was really important to me was for 3rd Dan. I was badgered into the test for 4th, and if it hadn't been so important to my teacher that I make 5th prior to his death I wouldn't have tested. I don't see any reason to advance to 6th or higher. Additionally, there are only a handfull of people that I respect personally enough to value their assessment of my skill and knowledge that I don't concern myself overly much with putting on anything more than I have. There are a couple of people that I look on as teachers, but aside from them, I can't see accepting rank from anyone at this point.
Besides, the only belt that really matters in the WWE World title and I don't want to fight Hulk Hogan. He is a big dude.
Mark
P.S. I know that Hogan isn't the champ but I have no idea who is. Besides, I'd rather fight him than Ric Flair. Woo!
Some people obviously put more feeling into their rank than others. Sure, everytime I test for a new rank, I'm excited, and certainly happy if I am fortunate to pass.
I'm not a rank whore. When I'm ready, I'm ready. IMO, the rank simply shows where one is in their art. Often times, I think that people are more concerned with just getting a new belt, rather than making sure they don't suck...but thats just my opinion. 
At a certain point rank becomes political. At this rank you can sit on a grading panel, at this rank you may teach, at this rank you may be on the national committee, these are all useful in the expansion of a art, yes your MA skills are important, but you committment and dedication to the development of an organisation are also equally important.
In my opinion, rank becomes insignificant at black belt, because then you are open to all methods of training and techniques.
Also, I lost all interest in rank two years ago when I was 16. Everyone was talking about testing one day and something just snapped in my mind "What's the point? I'm still going to be learning the same stuff and training the same way. Really rank just gives me a higher spot in line".
And that is why I have not obtained my TKD third degree yet. For a good year or two I didn't even have the desire to test ( midterm ). Actually I still don't, I just want my third before I go off to college just to tell people I have it.
However, I can't imagine becoming a white belt again. I know i will have to at some point when I start a new art...but I'll hate not being able to do what the black belts are doing.
Also, I lost all interest in rank two years ago when I was 16. Everyone was talking about testing one day and something just snapped in my mind "What's the point? I'm still going to be learning the same stuff and training the same way. Really rank just gives me a higher spot in line".
And that is why I have not obtained my TKD third degree yet. For a good year or two I didn't even have the desire to test ( midterm ). Actually I still don't, I just want my third before I go off to college just to tell people I have it.
However, I can't imagine becoming a white belt again. I know i will have to at some point when I start a new art...but I'll hate not being able to do what the black belts are doing.
The first of the month marks the start of my forty third year in martial arts. A lot of my black belts don't even care about rank anymore. Some care about that new stripe....for about five minutes during that wonderful moment when everyone gives them a polite golf clap.
There comes a point in life when the only things that AREN'T meaningless are roughage and comfortable shoes.
There comes a point in life when the only things that AREN'T meaningless are roughage and comfortable shoes.
sfs982000
Master Black Belt
Well put, that pretty much sums it up in a nutshell.
- Thread Starter
- #16
The question then becomes, when do you decide?
- Thread Starter
- #17
What if someone claims to have been practicing for decades and does not get to sit on a grading panel, is not part of a national committee (if their art has such a thing) and teaches but cannot award any "official" rank, because their instructor broke away and is only a lower rank him/herself? You are doing your best but financial or personal circumstances won't allow you to travel to the mother country, nor receive the type of exposure to high level practitioners that would allow one to receive instructor level or higher certification. Or perhaps you have attempted to build higher level relationships, only to be politely but firmly turned away.
Do you decide at that point that rank is unimportant? Unimportant for who?
sfs982000
Master Black Belt
That is what I've been told as well, as far as the higher ranks being more political and also being based on overall contributions to the art/organization/system. I think commitment and dedication to developing an organization is important, but bottom line for me is that the individuals MA skills are solid. As a student I'd much rather study under a solid 3rd or 4th Dan than a mediocore 5th or 6th Dan. If ranking became a issue then as a student you would have to understand that particular instructor could only promote you so high before you would have to branch off and study somewhere else.
I see nothing wrong with both sides of the coin as far as doing your best to advance in your said organization and making it stronger as well as branching out independently and passing the art along, as long as the instructors have solid skills. Personally I don't mind if my black belt certificate comes from a major organization/association or if it's from in-house signed by my instructor, so long as I get good instruction and believe that I truly earned my rank.
But therein lies the problem. If you are practicing under an independent instructor and have no contact with a larger organization outside of your dojo, how do you judge if you're getting good instruction? If your instructor has a high ranking from an organization, it is easy these days to check into the rank requirements of said organization. I was in exactly that position at one time. It wasn't until I started attending events and seminars with other organizations that I discovered the weaknesses in the training I received. Did my instructor have a high rank? Not in the art I was learning. His outlook was that rank was unimportant.
It depends.
I know some in the color belts who just want to train and will only test when pushed. I was one of those.
I know some that stop training at black belt. They achieved their target and the rank they wanted. So they stopped training. The rank was a check box and at the end of the day really meaningless.
I know some that gain a few ranks and do not want to test anymore. Some because of politics. Some because they are not healthy enough for the physical requirements and other reasons as well.
Some because they are happy with where they are at. Others because they just cannot get promoted due to politics or other reasons. If you cannot get promoted, you accept it and move forward. So if you do not want to be negative or seem negative you can say you do not care about more rank.
