Does a 2-year TKD black belt know TKD better than a 10-year BJJ black belt knows BJJ?

[HighKick]

Trying to relate bjj to other arts and saying a belt is more meaningful is a bit absurd. There are plenty of striking arts that take more than 5 years to get to black belt. Not all bjj or tkd schools are the same quality either. What is meaningful is in the eye of the beholder.

Agree. What U/skribs is not considering is how very few high, high belts there are in BJJ (or similar). Without a doubt, TKD has a massive commercial trend up to 1st Dan. Hard stop, now way to disagree with this. And by sheer numbers, there are considerably more <4th Dan's in TKD, But then the trend changes tremendously. And it 'evens out' with other styles in regard to belt time and time in training. Not to mention the longevity quotient.

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

I have heard some say that by Blue Belt most BJJ techniques have been learned. The ability to apply them - that is a far different issue.

 

[skribs123 143]

I have heard some say that by Blue Belt most BJJ techniques have been learned. The ability to apply them - that is a far different issue.

I think it depends on the school. I'm a 1-stripe purple belt. I'm still pretty lost in a handful of the less common positions, such as north/south or 50/50. There's a lot of techniques that I've not even managed to do very well in drills, let alone in rolls.

I've won a couple of competition matches as a purple belt, so I don't feel like I was promoted beyond my ability. But I don't feel I've really learned most BJJ techniques yet.

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

I think it depends on the school. I'm a 1-stripe purple belt. I'm still pretty lost in a handful of the less common positions, such as north/south or 50/50. There's a lot of techniques that I've not even managed to do very well in drills, let alone in rolls.

As I indicated there is "Knowing" and then there is the ability to apply the knowledge. To paraphrase Picasso. "Learn the concepts like a scholar, but apply them like a professional".

 

[skribs123 143]

As I indicated there is "Knowing" and then there is the ability to apply the knowledge. To paraphrase Picasso. "Learn the concepts like a scholar, but apply them like a professional".

And I would say a lot of these places I'm lost I don't even "know", let alone know.

 

[Tony Dismukes122 18]

I have heard some say that by Blue Belt most BJJ techniques have been learned. The ability to apply them - that is a far different issue.

This may have been true 20-30 years ago. But over the last couple of decades there has been an explosion of technical development in BJJ. As a 3rd degree black belt 26 years into my BJJ journey, I still can't keep up with the proliferation of new techniques, tactics, and positions. The best I can do is try to maintain a general overview awareness of most of the newer developments, even if many of them I haven't had a chance to personally try yet.

 

[skribs123 143]

This may have been true 20-30 years ago. But over the last couple of decades there has been an explosion of technical development in BJJ. As a 3rd degree black belt 26 years into my BJJ journey, I still can't keep up with the proliferation of new techniques, tactics, and positions. The best I can do is try to maintain a general overview awareness of most of the newer developments, even if many of them I haven't had a chance to personally try yet.

I'd argue the answer is somewhere in the middle. For example, I recently found on Instagram a new ankle lock from deep half guard. I was workshopping it with some of the other purple/brown belts, and it was new for all of them. I've tried it in the gym on some white, blue, and black belts, and I was able to hit it on some of the white and blue belts, but other white/blue and the black belts were able to defend it, despite not having seen it before.

Many of them (including the black belt) didn't even know what I was going for. The black belt thought I was going for a knee bar. Many of the white belts were just controlling my hands and trying to get their leg free to pass my guard.

I'd say not knowing this specific ankle lock isn't a big knock on someone about their jiu-jitsu ability. But if (like me) your best attack in north/south is "just go back to side control", then I think you've got a big gap in your game.

 

[Darren1]

i think if you can understand leverage and can apply that, that's half the battle its more of what you come up with then anything.

 

[MadMartigan115 30]

This may have been true 20-30 years ago. But over the last couple of decades there has been an explosion of technical development in BJJ. As a 3rd degree black belt 26 years into my BJJ journey, I still can't keep up with the proliferation of new techniques, tactics, and positions. The best I can do is try to maintain a general overview awareness of most of the newer developments, even if many of them I haven't had a chance to personally try yet.

Would some of these new and esoteric tactics and setups really be considered core to the art now? Wouldn't those rare movements more accurately be described as nice to know... if you want?
Kinda like learning to perform a jumping 720 degree tornado kick in TKD. It's cool if you can pull it off, but in no way is it required to earn a black belt (at any degree). At It's core, it's just a jumping turning kick with extra setup and flair.

Where is the line between fundamental requirements... and just another cool setup?

 

[skribs123 143]

Would some of these new and esoteric tactics and setups really be considered core to the art now? Wouldn't those rare movements more accurately be described as nice to know... if you want?
Kinda like learning to perform a jumping 720 degree tornado kick in TKD. It's cool if you can pull it off, but in no way is it required to earn a black belt (at any degree). At It's core, it's just a jumping turning kick with extra setup and flair.

Where is the line between fundamental requirements... and just another cool setup?

There's a couple of differences here. The 720 tornado kick takes a long time to develop and is usually easy to see coming a mile away. Getting hit with it by someone good at it is going to be rare. These new BJJ tactics and setups can blindside you out of nowhere if you're not ready for them.

Additionally, a 720 tornado kick is worth the same amount of points as a regular tornado kick. If it lands, you lose a few points and keep going. In BJJ, a well-executed technique usually gives you a submission (immediate win) or a positional advantage, which is much harder to come back from. Coming back from a TKD match where you're down by 3 means you need to land a couple of basic kicks on the opponent. Coming back from a BJJ match where your opponent hit a sweep into mount means you're down by 7 and you need to get out of mount before you can try to score.

 

[skribs123 143]

One other thing, sometimes these new things become the meta, at least for a short time.

 

[Earl Weiss120 20]

This may have been true 20-30 years ago. But over the last couple of decades there has been an explosion of technical development in BJJ. As a 3rd degree black belt 26 years into my BJJ journey, I still can't keep up with the proliferation of new techniques, tactics, and positions. The best I can do is try to maintain a general overview awareness of most of the newer developments, even if many of them I haven't had a chance to personally try yet.

When is something a Technical development, variation or refinement versus a Truly a new technique?

 

[skribs123 143]

When is something a Technical development, variation or refinement versus a Truly a new technique?

People don't even agree on categorizations within the realm of existing techniques. I'm sure Tony and I probably have different methods of categorizing guards, or armlocks, or something else.

Even my Professor and I don't fully agree. He believes the Americana and Kimura are the same technique just from a different angle, where I believe they're two separate techniques. But it doesn't matter that we quibble over the details.

 

[MadMartigan115 30]

People don't even agree on categorizations within the realm of existing techniques. I'm sure Tony and I probably have different methods of categorizing guards, or armlocks, or something else.

Even my Professor and I don't fully agree. He believes the Americana and Kimura are the same technique just from a different angle, where I believe they're two separate techniques. But it doesn't matter that we quibble over the details.

I have to agree with you over your professor on the Americana vs kimura... based on the fact that the injury caused by finishing the move would be different for 1 vs the other... now the omaplata, that I would say is the same as a kimura... just with a different setup.

 

[MadMartigan115 30]

There's a couple of differences here. The 720 tornado kick takes a long time to develop and is usually easy to see coming a mile away. Getting hit with it by someone good at it is going to be rare. These new BJJ tactics and setups can blindside you out of nowhere if you're not ready for them.

Additionally, a 720 tornado kick is worth the same amount of points as a regular tornado kick. If it lands, you lose a few points and keep going. In BJJ, a well-executed technique usually gives you a submission (immediate win) or a positional advantage, which is much harder to come back from. Coming back from a TKD match where you're down by 3 means you need to land a couple of basic kicks on the opponent. Coming back from a BJJ match where your opponent hit a sweep into mount means you're down by 7 and you need to get out of mount before you can try to score.

That may be, but I was really just looking to put an analogy together. The point I was trying to make remains though.

No one lost their black belt when the rubber guard was invented, nor should they. The core of any art is the fundamentals.

While an art can evolve... adding unlimited new setups, and calling every new variation a 'core technique' I think bloats everything, and moves away from building a strong understanding of the basic principles that should be the real standard for everything.

 

[skribs123 143]

That may be, but I was really just looking to put an analogy together. The point I was trying to make remains though.

No one lost their black belt when the rubber guard was invented, nor should they. The core of any art is the fundamentals.

While an art can evolve... adding unlimited new setups, and calling every new variation a 'core technique' I think bloats everything, and moves away from building a strong understanding of the basic principles that should be the real standard for everything.

Yeah, but there's also less of that happening in TKD, because the options are much more limited when you're not allowed grips and you have to stay standing.