Reclaiming Tai Chi

[Appledog50 23]

Hi guys! I think it's time to reclaim Tai Chi. There has been some effort on this front by the Practical method people; the Wu and Yang families have done an excellent an honorable job preserving their family style apart from the public "style" style, as has Chen (oddly enough to a lesser extent). The other families IIRC are going strong, but don't have a loud voice. But besides the families, there is sufficient grift in the Tai Chi community both from within (people teaching beyond their skill level) and from outside (people using Tai Chi to advertise some other martial art). The latter particularly bothers me because it is incredibly dishonest to bait and switch people by promising them an education in Tai Chi and then locking them down into something else -- or more often than not, sadly, a wet noodle nothingburger. The issue is made worse with the move to freeform push hands; this represents an abandonment of the 13 postures and removes push hands as a valuable training method in Tai Chi.

For a while I have been considering a new sports body and I hit upon the idea of an open, permission-less rating system for push hands using standard ELO rating math certified by a witness. Only fixed push hands can be rated in this system and each style of push hands has it's own rating -- this is to deny the opportunity for people to game the system by introducing heterodox mechanics into a match. Therefore freeform push hands is not allowed as the goal of the exercise is not to compete in the sense of modern competitive push hands; the goal is not to cause the opponent to move his foot, lose his balance or fall over. The goal is to break the opponent's use of the 13 postures. If someone is taken out of the 13 postures and it is not immediately corrected, or movement stops (clench) both competitors lose the round (there is no winner). This simple rule change states the obvious; neither party could use the 13 postures to deal with the situation so both of them lost. Within this framework, causing the opponent's foot to move is a point (win). Causing the opponent to hip hinge is probably also a win; that part is under construction.

The math is simple and does not require a central authority. However, I think creating a trust network would be a trivial confidence anchor to the ratings. The system is trustless but can accept trust; any claim is valid however it has no credibility in and of itself unless: a) both parties agree and/or b) there is a witness to the match (which you trust). You do not even need to trust the sports body organizer in this system if you don't want to. Other than that the math is simple and everyone enters the system at 0. This is a second line of defense; if you don't even have a match history you can't claim an advanced rank or rating; for people with a high rating it is assumed they would have met and pushed with a large number of people and would have accumulated a large amount of trust in the system.

The system is used for calculating the probability of someone being able to retain their posture using the 13 postures in a match of fixed push hands. After a series of matches, it should be decided who is the winner by both parties. If a witness is present this adds trust because a witness lends a path of trust to the match.

How trust works is simple. If you know someone and trust them, you mark it as such in the system. If you witness a match you are "trusting" the match. Therefore if someone trusts you and you trust a match there is a level 2 trust between you and some match. The math for this is exceedingly simple and is used on chess and go servers worldwide.

implementing it is one thing, using it is another. Using it does not require participating in any kind of online system and there is no signup. You simply claim to be a certain rating and you use that rating to compare yourself with others. If you claim to be rating 2500 (approx. 5 kyu) you should win/lose 1/3 ro 2/3 of your matches with another 5 kyu (or so). If you win 3 in a row your rating is higher than the opponent and if you lose 3 in a row your rating is lower (casual rule of 3's). Once a sufficient number of people in a local group begin using this system it will self regulate. All that is needed to anchor the system is sufficient contact between different groups. For this purpose a central authority can be created solely to anchor the system, as it does not actually matter what your rating number is so long as it organizes you in your local group.

I've already said enough that this system could go viral and fix the entire Taijiquan community in one day. All that is necessary is that you claim to be of a certain rank. To begin I will claim the rank of 20 kyu. (~1000 ELO). This system starts at 30 kyu and 16 kyu is the range where initiative (here we will say neigong) is discovered. Anchoring myself at 20 kyu is done solely to demarcate between brute force and the use of neigong while not allowing too much rank inflation in case someone tries to game the system before a critical mass is established.

All that is needed to implement this system is for you to claim a rating. I suggest most modern American Tai Chi teachers who learned Tai Chi inside the USA, Canada or Europe claim a rank of 10 kyu and set their students at 16 kyu to start.

This system does not require anyone to agree with it to be useful, thrive and survive. It is trustless and permissionless and is literally an overlay on top of what we already do in Tai Chi. The benefit of adopting it is that it will push out anyone who is teaching fraudulent taijiquan. Among those of us who learn and practice real, authentic taijiquan, there is absolutely no reason not to adopt this system. Even if you disagree with the system and reject it, the fact that you know authentic tai chi means you technically have a rating even if you do not acknowledge it. This means people can be rated by those who participate in the system even if they choose not to participate in the system. All that is required is that a participant enters the match in the system.

This has been a bit of a ramble but I think it has struck the right foundation. I'll keep chipping away at the diamond stone, any thoughts are welcome.

Rough markers; this is an estimate, and will self-regulate in use:

• 30 kyu -- first push hands match (0 ELO)
• 20 kyu -- likely the first inkling of neigong applied to push hands (~1000 ELO)
• 10 kyu -- Teacher in the school
• 1 kyu/1 dan (Shodan) national tournament winner
• 5 dan-6 dan -- Top amateur rank, with 7 dan being possible (but unlikely; in practice people rarely get to this level)

After this there are 9 professional dan ranks. You will note this is very similar to the duan system. That's intentional, but this is a ratings system not a ranking system.

 

[Kung Fu Wang145 175]

In Taiji push hand, when you push me, I can:

1. yield, and guide your pushing force into the emptiness.
2. borrow your pushing force, grab/pull your arm, add in leg skill, and take you down.

Why do I want to do just 1 and not 2?

When people ask you this question, what will be your answer?

 

[blindsage8 2]

I'm not really interested in this at all as a Taiji practitioner and teacher, but I am curious why you would use Japanese ranking terms for a Chinese martial art.

 

[Kung Fu Wang145 175]

neither party could use the 13 postures to deal with the situation ...

Why don't we ever see Taiji people use Peng like this in their Taiji PH?

 

[Xue Sheng136 7]

I'm not really interested in this at all as a Taiji practitioner and teacher, but I am curious why you would use Japanese ranking terms for a Chinese martial art.

My Taijiquan shifu, when he found out the Yang family was using belt ranking systems.... he said..... they're crazy... and I agree.

 

[windwalker099145 175]

Among those of us who learn and practice real, authentic taijiquan, there is absolutely no reason not to adopt this system.

Who has told you what you practice is the real, authentic Taijiquan?

@kungfuwang measures his Taiji through combat— some have argued that what he teaches is not Taiji.

Historically, consider this traditional account of Yang Luchan (1799–1872):

"When asked whether Taijiquan could actually be used to fight, Yang replied:

'There are three kinds of people I cannot fight: those made of copper, those made of iron, and those made of wood. Apart from them, I can fight anyone.'

Yang then challenged Yang to face Instructor Liu, a man reportedly capable of lifting 500 catties. Liu charged fiercely toward Yang, who led his force into emptiness with his right hand and, with a single strike of his left, reportedly threw Liu more than three zhang away."

Whether historically accurate or not, the account illustrates an important distinction.

Yang was not demonstrating proficiency in a prescribed push-hands exercise. He was expressing his Taiji ability in response to someone using a different martial method.

Fixed push hands can be a valuable training method, but proficiency in that exercise does not necessarily establish someone's understanding of Taiji.

 

[windwalker099145 175]

Yang then challenged Yang to face Instructor Liu,

typo:

"Zhang then challenged Yang to face Instructor Liu"

 

[Appledog50 23]

Fixed push hands can be a valuable training method, but proficiency in that exercise does not necessarily establish someone's understanding of Taiji.

According to Feng Zhiqiang and many others, push hands (not necessarily fixed) can server as the sole demarcator of skill in Taijiquan. For example, in a 2025-11-11 article Hai Chen writes:

太极拳习练者都知道，太极拳作为一种武术功夫，其主要技法的训练和应用都要通过“推手”来实现。因此，“推手功夫”就成为“太极功夫”的唯一试金石了。

"Tai Chi practitioners all know that, as a martial art, the training and application of its main techniques are achieved through "pushing hands." Therefore, "pushing hands skills" become the sole touchstone for mastering Tai Chi."

Why don't we ever see Taiji people use Peng like this in their Taiji PH?

This isn't peng, though: it started from outside contact range and you instantly applied a technique without any response from the opponent. Let me rephrase something I said earlier to add clarity; The point loss occurs here because the opponent was unable to deal with the technique using the 8 energies/5 steps. The problem is, you began the technique from a known position outside of the fixed step format, so your own point is invalid.

In Taiji push hand, when you push me, I can:

1. yield, and guide your pushing force into the emptiness.
2. borrow your pushing force, grab/pull your arm, add in leg skill, and take you down.

Why do I want to do just 1 and not 2?

When people ask you this question, what will be your answer?

It doesn't matter because this format is not about open combat. Above, windwalker also tried to frame it as combat ("Yang was not demonstrating proficiency in a prescribed push-hands exercise."). But we all know push hands is not combat, it is a training method. So applying the freeform rules of combat to push hands (i.e. freestyle push hands) where people are unable to clearly identify peng, lu, ji, an, etc. allows a bait and switch where someone can claim any technique is valid in push hands -- and this is precisely the problem which is destroying push hands today.

What this system does is that it does not score you for your #2 above. It scores the opponent for being able to use the 8 energies to deal with your arm drag. You see, you can do whatever you want. The issue is not being able to do what you did in your example. The rules will simply not assign you a point because you set up a technique that is outside the rules. How do you know? Simple, you moved your foot first. It's very clear from the video, you moved your right foot first which means this isn't valid in fixed step push hands.

You may instead ask, 'why don't two people just agree to co-operate so both win?' this doesn't do anything though, it just means the two are evenly matched. A point is scored when someone "tries some ****" (btw, there is a known list of ****, but for argument's sake we can include **** that isn't on the list for kicks) and the opponent is either thrown/captured or is able to deal with it. If the opponent is thrown it is not that you scored a point, it is that they scored a loss. There are no wins here. There is only the ability to maintain composure. If you lost composure you get marked a loss.

The question is, if you go in for an attack and you succeed, did you do it within the rules of taijiquan push hands? The demarcation line is simple. How did the technique start? Was it executed from fixed step push hands, or was there some kind of "freestyle" clinch and then random jerking motions? If so, both parties experience a loss for the point. Again, this is not designed to test combat efficacy. This is designed around the concept of push hands itself -- are you able to employ the 8 energies to return to the circle, or not? If you can't, then you lose. Invest in loss.

Therefore how do we know your #2 is invalid? It's not because it worked, it's because you added in leg skill. This invalidates it as peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, kao.

Finally a word of friendship for Xue Sheng and blindsage. First it's framed in japanese terms because the analogy is Go (i.e. Weiqi) and in English we use Japanese terms for Go because the Japanese introduced Go to the west. You can use whatever terms you like, it's a number (an ELO rating, essentially).

Secondly, the issue with a belt system is it's an arbitrary pidgeonhole where you have to start defining things that weren't originally defined in the art, such as the order in which certain forms or techniques are taught. So a belt system can work for seinority but isn't really a strong overlay for most Chinese styles. OTOH, a ratings system which can be drop-in over things you already do (fixed step push hands) means you don't even have to use it to be a part of it; you either engage in fixed step push hands with people in your school and local community. or you don't. If you do, then theoretically you already have a rating, it just hasn't been calculated yet. This is the beauty of the system; it's just math over what you are already doing.

The big reveal is that it shines a light on a very uncomfortable place for a lot of american/euro tai chi players; they aren't really doing push hands properly so it isn't that they choose to participate or not, they simply can't participate. For those people it is fine, they can do whatever they are doing and be happy, but it must be understood that they aren't really practicing "authentic taijiquan". I'll explain, finally, what this means. If Taijiquan is the employ of the 13 energies, then if you cannot or will not demonstrate these energies, you are not doing "authentic taijiquan". Taijiquan is one of the very few systems which has become so open that even a dilletante can recognize this statement as accurate after a modicum of research. After all, how can you learn to fight using Taijiquan if you can't hold your ground in fixed step push hands? Isn't this a rather basic exercise?

new slogan: "Bro do you even push?"

 

[Kung Fu Wang145 175]

Was it executed from fixed step push hands?

Taiji has moving step push hand too.

 

[Appledog50 23]

Who has told you what you practice is the real, authentic Taijiquan?

What else would it be? I never learned anything else. Now I will ask you a question instead. "How can you come up with a method to work on something you do not know?" If you can answer this question then you will know who told me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang145 175]

you added in leg skill. This invalidates it as peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou, kao.

"Leg skill" is so important in combat. All MA styles should emphasize on it.

When Li Jing-Lin used Taiji "diagonal fly on GM Chang Tung-Sheng, GM Chang countered him with SC "body squeeze". Both skills are exactly the same. GM Chang defeat Li because Li didn't control GM Chang's back leg, but GM Chang did control Li's back leg.

By adding

- Peng with "outer hook".
- Lu with "leg spring".
- Ji with "scoop kick".
- An with "inner hook".

A push will become a throw. Instead of pushing your opponent away, you can take your opponent down right below your knees.

 

[Same Trick90 41]

Hi guys! I think it's time to reclaim Tai Chi. There has been some effort on this front by the Practical method people; the Wu and Yang families have done an excellent an honorable job preserving their family style apart from the public "style" style, as has Chen (oddly enough to a lesser extent). The other families IIRC are going strong, but don't have a loud voice. But besides the families, there is sufficient grift in the Tai Chi community both from within (people teaching beyond their skill level) and from outside (people using Tai Chi to advertise some other martial art). The latter particularly bothers me because it is incredibly dishonest to bait and switch people by promising them an education in Tai Chi and then locking them down into something else -- or more often than not, sadly, a wet noodle nothingburger. The issue is made worse with the move to freeform push hands; this represents an abandonment of the 13 postures and removes push hands as a valuable training method in Tai Chi.

For a while I have been considering a new sports body and I hit upon the idea of an open, permission-less rating system for push hands using standard ELO rating math certified by a witness. Only fixed push hands can be rated in this system and each style of push hands has it's own rating -- this is to deny the opportunity for people to game the system by introducing heterodox mechanics into a match. Therefore freeform push hands is not allowed as the goal of the exercise is not to compete in the sense of modern competitive push hands; the goal is not to cause the opponent to move his foot, lose his balance or fall over. The goal is to break the opponent's use of the 13 postures. If someone is taken out of the 13 postures and it is not immediately corrected, or movement stops (clench) both competitors lose the round (there is no winner). This simple rule change states the obvious; neither party could use the 13 postures to deal with the situation so both of them lost. Within this framework, causing the opponent's foot to move is a point (win). Causing the opponent to hip hinge is probably also a win; that part is under construction.

The math is simple and does not require a central authority. However, I think creating a trust network would be a trivial confidence anchor to the ratings. The system is trustless but can accept trust; any claim is valid however it has no credibility in and of itself unless: a) both parties agree and/or b) there is a witness to the match (which you trust). You do not even need to trust the sports body organizer in this system if you don't want to. Other than that the math is simple and everyone enters the system at 0. This is a second line of defense; if you don't even have a match history you can't claim an advanced rank or rating; for people with a high rating it is assumed they would have met and pushed with a large number of people and would have accumulated a large amount of trust in the system.

The system is used for calculating the probability of someone being able to retain their posture using the 13 postures in a match of fixed push hands. After a series of matches, it should be decided who is the winner by both parties. If a witness is present this adds trust because a witness lends a path of trust to the match.

How trust works is simple. If you know someone and trust them, you mark it as such in the system. If you witness a match you are "trusting" the match. Therefore if someone trusts you and you trust a match there is a level 2 trust between you and some match. The math for this is exceedingly simple and is used on chess and go servers worldwide.

implementing it is one thing, using it is another. Using it does not require participating in any kind of online system and there is no signup. You simply claim to be a certain rating and you use that rating to compare yourself with others. If you claim to be rating 2500 (approx. 5 kyu) you should win/lose 1/3 ro 2/3 of your matches with another 5 kyu (or so). If you win 3 in a row your rating is higher than the opponent and if you lose 3 in a row your rating is lower (casual rule of 3's). Once a sufficient number of people in a local group begin using this system it will self regulate. All that is needed to anchor the system is sufficient contact between different groups. For this purpose a central authority can be created solely to anchor the system, as it does not actually matter what your rating number is so long as it organizes you in your local group.

I've already said enough that this system could go viral and fix the entire Taijiquan community in one day. All that is necessary is that you claim to be of a certain rank. To begin I will claim the rank of 20 kyu. (~1000 ELO). This system starts at 30 kyu and 16 kyu is the range where initiative (here we will say neigong) is discovered. Anchoring myself at 20 kyu is done solely to demarcate between brute force and the use of neigong while not allowing too much rank inflation in case someone tries to game the system before a critical mass is established.

All that is needed to implement this system is for you to claim a rating. I suggest most modern American Tai Chi teachers who learned Tai Chi inside the USA, Canada or Europe claim a rank of 10 kyu and set their students at 16 kyu to start.

This system does not require anyone to agree with it to be useful, thrive and survive. It is trustless and permissionless and is literally an overlay on top of what we already do in Tai Chi. The benefit of adopting it is that it will push out anyone who is teaching fraudulent taijiquan. Among those of us who learn and practice real, authentic taijiquan, there is absolutely no reason not to adopt this system. Even if you disagree with the system and reject it, the fact that you know authentic tai chi means you technically have a rating even if you do not acknowledge it. This means people can be rated by those who participate in the system even if they choose not to participate in the system. All that is required is that a participant enters the match in the system.

This has been a bit of a ramble but I think it has struck the right foundation. I'll keep chipping away at the diamond stone, any thoughts are welcome.

Rough markers; this is an estimate, and will self-regulate in use:

• 30 kyu -- first push hands match (0 ELO)
• 20 kyu -- likely the first inkling of neigong applied to push hands (~1000 ELO)
• 10 kyu -- Teacher in the school
• 1 kyu/1 dan (Shodan) national tournament winner
• 5 dan-6 dan -- Top amateur rank, with 7 dan being possible (but unlikely; in practice people rarely get to this level)

After this there are 9 professional dan ranks. You will note this is very similar to the duan system. That's intentional, but this is a ratings system not a ranking system.

You live in Taiwan ? You can test run this system with the Taiwan TJQ/Wushu community ?

 

[Same Trick90 41]

My Taijiquan shifu, when he found out the Yang family was using belt ranking systems.... he said..... they're crazy... and I agree.

30 kyu grades as suggested for this new test system proposed, that’s a crazy amount of grades, not even the Japanese do it that way.

 

[Same Trick90 41]

The big reveal is that it shines a light on a very uncomfortable place for a lot of american/euro tai chi players; they aren't really doing push hands properly so it isn't that they choose to participate or not, they simply can't participate. For those people it is fine, they can do whatever they are doing and be happy, but it must be understood that they aren't really practicing "authentic taijiquan".

How about yours TJQ are you mixing it with other methods, I recall you mentioned Tan-tui, is that an authentic taijiquan ?

 

[Same Trick90 41]

30 kyu grades as suggested for this new test system proposed, that’s a crazy amount of grades, not even the Japanese do it that way.

I’m not into board games so I came to my mind to check this online, and yes indeed there are 30 kyu grades in the board game of Go, and it was introduced by a Japanese, but why should stuff from board games be introduced as rankings for martial arts ?

 

[windwalker099145 175]

"Leg skill" is so important in combat. All MA styles should emphasize on it.

All can view and see the skill you write about.. Even though they may not agree....
Seems like some one claiming " it must be understood that they aren't really practicing "authentic taijiquan". would want to show what they write about,,,,

How about yours TJQ are you mixing it with other methods, I recall you mentioned Tan-tui, is that an authentic taijiquan ?

Yes it is kind of strange....

Posting from Taiwan, where there are established Taiji communities, experienced teachers, and practitioners from different lineages.

Why not introduce his rating system locally, test it with experienced practitioners, and see whether they find it useful?

That would provide something his written proposal cannot: practical feedback from the very people whose skills he proposes to evaluate.

 

[windwalker099145 175]

It seems to me that what is being proposed here is the creation of a closed loop.

A closed loop is a system that only references itself. It defines its own rules, sets its own standards, and rewards compliance with those standards. It does not require input from the outside world to validate its claims. It only requires that the participants agree to play the game.

In the past, Taijiquan was an open loop.

It was tested against the outside world. It was tested in encounters with other arts, other methods, other bodies. Yang Luchan did not test his art against a fixed drill. He tested it against an Instructor Liu who charged at him with a different method. The art evolved because it had to answer to reality, not to a rulebook.

What happens when you close the loop?

 

[windwalker099145 175]

Why don't we ever see Taiji people use Peng like this in their Taiji PH?

Because it would not work the same way against someone with the appropriate Taiji skills.

If the student had open shoulders and a relaxed, connected body, he would be free to change rather than become locked into the position shown in the clip.

This doesn't mean the technique is invalid. It simply means that what works depends on the skill level and abilities of the person one encounters.

 

[Xue Sheng136 7]

30 kyu grades as suggested for this new test system proposed, that’s a crazy amount of grades, not even the Japanese do it that way.

I thought the 4 we had back in my Jiujitsu days was enough… then pre Olympic TKD had 6, i think, and i thought it was getting out of had then. Since then it’s gone off the rails… and 30…. That’s just silly

 

[Kung Fu Wang145 175]

Because it would not work the same way against someone with the appropriate Taiji skills.

If the student had open shoulders and a relaxed, connected body, he would be free to change rather than become locked into the position shown in the clip.

This doesn't mean the technique is invalid. It simply means that what works depends on the skill level and abilities of the person one encounters.

To counter arm wrapping is easy. All you need is to rotate your arms the same direction as your opponent's arms is rotating. This way, your opponent's arms will wrap into the thin air. The question is, when you do that, your opponent can reverse his arms rotation direction too.

It's up to who is better in changing. Your arms can be either under your opponent's arm (under hook), or over your opponent's arm (over hook). You don't care one way or another.