Interact with quality martial artists.

[Blindside]

If we agree with that "strength can defeat 10 best techniques" then that equation will change. In my example, the low level guy was not stronger and faster.

So your example was essentially " a bigger, stronger, faster more experienced guy will beat a weaker, slow, less experienced guy." Uh, OK, I am not sure that is exactly news. Now did the that slower, weaker less experienced guy get better against other fighters?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

So your example was essentially " a bigger, stronger, faster more experienced guy will beat a weaker, slow, less experienced guy." Uh, OK, I am not sure that is exactly news. Now did the that slower, weaker less experienced guy get better against other fighters?

Of course he could defeat someone with less skill and less ability. If we remove strength, the following is always true.

know how > fast > slow > don't know how

So when a pretty girl reject you (general YOU), what you have learned are:

you are not

- good looking enough,
- educated well,
- rich enough,
- ...

If you decide to change that, that girl's rejection can be a good thing after all. If you just give up and lose your self-confidence, that will be a bad thing. IMO, to "interact with quality MAists" can be the same as to "date a pretty girl".

 

[drop bear]

They may learn the technique (the 1st 50%) exactly the same way. But their "ability (the other 50%)" may be different. The high level guy may be stronger, faster, ...

It may be the years of honing his technique against quality oponants.

 

[drop bear]

Of course he could defeat someone with less skill and less ability. If we remove strength, the following is always true.

know how > fast > slow > don't know how

So when a pretty girl reject you (general YOU), what you have learned are:

you are not

- good looking enough,
- educated well,
- rich enough,
- ...

If you decide to change that, that girl's rejection can be a good thing after all. If you just give up and lose your self-confidence, that will be a bad thing. IMO, to "interact with quality MAists" can be the same as to "date a pretty girl".

how to handle rejection.
How Should I Deal With Rejection By Women

But if you want to pick up a girl courting loss is the best way. You are not going to loose confidence if you accept you wont date every girl you talk to.

 

[Transk53]

If you decide to change that, that girl's rejection can be a good thing after all. If you just give up and lose your self-confidence, that will be a bad thing. IMO, to "interact with quality MAists" can be the same as to "date a pretty girl".

Not really true at all. That a sweeping statement against a quality martial artist and a pretty girl.

 

[MJS]

Is possibly one of the more underrated concepts relating to martial arts advancement and personal advancement.

Find good fighters. Fight them. And be humbled by them. A constant quest to be the small fish in the big pond.

Which i accept is hard because it is much nicer to win all the time.

Agreed! While I admit that my initial journey in the arts was a bit tainted for lack of better words, lol, I do give credit where it's due, so if it wasn't for my initial teachers, I'd never have come across the fantastic people that I currently have in my life today. Unfortunately, while I don't always get to see these people on a regular basis, I am thankful for the lessons that I did have with them. It's funny, because sometimes the best people out there, are the ones that don't necessarily draw tons of attention to themselves.

 

[Chris Parker]

You probably train differently for different results.

I train to learn the arts I'm training. Believe it or not, fighting skill, in and of itself, isn't really that much of a factor… for a few reasons… one of which being that, well, it's rather irrelevant.

Honestly i doubt that.

Ha, okay… then I will simply defer to my years of experience, knowledge, and understanding of what I'm talking about… I've done the sports thing, I've done the sparring thing, and I've done the Koryu mental beatdown thing… and trust me, I can have you in tears from simply telling you how you're doing… far easier than by "beating" you in sparring…

i agree. I am suggesting it is an important element but not the only one.

I am focusing on one aspect.

It's not just that… it's that you're focusing on only one aspect of only one context, and only one approach. It's not the only, nor indeed the best, most universal aspect. Again, the basic idea (work with those better than you that can help you improve, through example, demonstration, or whatever) is right and good… but, again, is simply the way things work… but the idea of "fighting" them is of very limited relevance and effectiveness, depending on the system, your level, and the way the "fight" goes down.

It is not natural.
It is more natural to dominate lesser talented people.. It is easier and the rewards are quicker.

Look, to be honest, that's only more "natural" for people who would be identified as thugs and bullies… so… no.

I find i will instinctively take the easier fight. Especially in a club situation where i could choose to partner with a serious guy who is going to grind me for five minutes.

Really? To be blunt, that sounds like you have a bit of an issue with your ego when it comes to training then… and value "feeling good" over actually learning and developing… as I said, this is all just pretty much the standard, which is coming across as some kind of major revelation to you… this could be why.

 

[Transk53]

Really? To be blunt, that sounds like you have a bit of an issue with your ego when it comes to training then… and value "feeling good" over actually learning and developing… as I said, this is all just pretty much the standard, which is coming across as some kind of major revelation to you… this could be why.

I believe drop bear means club as being a venue, or what we call such a thing as standard work speak.

 

[drop bear]

Really? To be blunt, that sounds like you have a bit of an issue with your ego when it comes to training then… and value "feeling good" over actually learning and developing… as I said, this is all just pretty much the standard, which is coming across as some kind of major revelation to you… this could be why.

No it doesn't you are misreading the post and the intent. And feeling good is not about ego.

You have to understand the level of sparring we do. It is hard. We move up to 80% contact do five minute rounds and i spar pro fighters.

Look they are good guys but I really don't want to jump in a cage and get flogged by them for five minutes.

Unfortunately to get good it is a necessary part of training.

 

[drop bear]

Look, to be honest, that's only more "natural" for people who would be identified as thugs and bullies… so… no.

where did you train sports fighting? Because it will give me an idea of the sort of environment you are thinking when you said you have experience in it.

A lot of sports fighting clubs have classes for non fighters. So you can have experience in sports fighting and not really have experience in sports fighting.

 

[drop bear]

It's not just that… it's that you're focusing on only one aspect of only one context, and only one approach. It's not the only, nor indeed the best, most universal aspect. Again, the basic idea (work with those better than you that can help you improve, through example, demonstration, or whatever) is right and good… but, again, is simply the way things work… but the idea of "fighting" them is of very limited relevance and effectiveness, depending on the system, your level, and the way the "fight" goes down.

Most successful fighters spar good guys. So it is defiantly the trend. Myself and a few other posters have suggested why it is an essential element to becoming better. You can argue the logic but. You cant appeal to authority here.

You are not a successful fighter and do not train successful fighters. So your recommendations are of course taken with a grain of salt. If you had a reason for it and it made sense I would consider it. But not just accepted as a statement of Chris fact.

 

[drop bear]

Ha, okay… then I will simply defer to my years of experience, knowledge, and understanding of what I'm talking about… I've done the sports thing, I've done the sparring thing, and I've done the Koryu mental beatdown thing… and trust me, I can have you in tears from simply telling you how you're doing… far easier than by "beating" you in sparring…

I would be really interested in what you mean by "done the sparring thing"

I don't know what your years of experience count for here. Years of experience is not a get out of jail free card. It is the basis in which you can explain your point. I have years of experience but some of that isn't very effective experience. That is sometimes just the way of martial arts. You do it because they did it and nobody ever really thinks about it.

People want martial arts to work. I want martial arts to work. Sometimes it just doesn't. And fighting quality guys is the best way for me to find out if it works or not.

 

[drop bear]

I train to learn the arts I'm training. Believe it or not, fighting skill, in and of itself, isn't really that much of a factor… for a few reasons… one of which being that, well, it's rather irrelevant.

And that is the difference in focus. If you are not training for fighting skill then of course your methods will be different as well as your results will be different.

If you are trying to preserve an art form fighting quality guys is the last thing you want to do. Because either your art form will get changed or you will get beat up a lot.

 

[Drose427]

And that is the difference in focus. If you are not training for fighting skill then of course your methods will be different as well as your results will be different.

If you are trying to preserve an art form fighting quality guys is the last thing you want to do. Because either your art form will get changed or you will get beat up a lot.

Most successful fighters spar good guys. So it is defiantly the trend. Myself and a few other posters have suggested why it is an essential element to becoming better. You can argue the logic but. You cant appeal to authority here.

You are not a successful fighter and do not train successful fighters. So your recommendations are of course taken with a grain of salt. If you had a reason for it and it made sense I would consider it. But not just accepted as a statement of Chris fact.

Both of these points have some big flaws.. There are lost of schools and MA's who dont sport fight often, dont free spar full contact, don't spar successful sport fighters or train them, and can still defend themselves with relative ease. Are they not good fighters because they arent sparring other people within a specific ruleset? Free-Sparring is a good tool, but just that. while I believe it is important, its far from the most important aspect in terms of SD. If you dont have the hang of moves and concepts of SD where there arent rules, free sparring 24/7 under X number of rules isnt going to help you. Being able to free spar within a ruleset doesn't mean you'll be able to defend yourself. Even boxers panic. Most MMA gyms dont cover SD as deeply as many TMA schools. Whereas the TMA schools dont train for MMA. You need to evaluate what you're labeling as "fighting".

If I remember right, Chris Parker doesnt do free sparring. But he does do SD on resisting opponents. If he's able to defend himself, is he still not a successful fighter simply because he doesn't sport fight? I'm noticing a trend where, although you're nice about it and far from rude, you hold sport fighting above all other types of training. But this is a huge flaw. 1. People were defending themselves long before sport fighting. Heck, they were long before TMA's. 2. There are a lot of things you will never learn training for a respective sport unless you personally take out the time to step outside your comfort zone. Your standard MMA gym isn't teaching knife defense or awareness training. They may offer it through their BJJ or if they have a TMA, but it's not part of the Cage Fighting Curriculum.

Just something to think about while you and Chris butt heads

 

[drop bear]

Both of these points have some big flaws.. There are lost of schools and MA's who dont sport fight often, dont free spar full contact, don't spar successful sport fighters or train them, and can still defend themselves with relative ease. Are they not good fighters because they arent sparring other people within a specific ruleset? Free-Sparring is a good tool, but just that. while I believe it is important, its far from the most important aspect in terms of SD. If you dont have the hang of moves and concepts of SD where there arent rules, free sparring 24/7 under X number of rules isnt going to help you. Being able to free spar within a ruleset doesn't mean you'll be able to defend yourself. Even boxers panic. Most MMA gyms dont cover SD as deeply as many TMA schools. Whereas the TMA schools dont train for MMA. You need to evaluate what you're labeling as "fighting".

If I remember right, Chris Parker doesnt do free sparring. But he does do SD on resisting opponents. If he's able to defend himself, is he still not a successful fighter simply because he doesn't sport fight? I'm noticing a trend where, although you're nice about it and far from rude, you hold sport fighting above all other types of training. But this is a huge flaw. 1. People were defending themselves long before sport fighting. Heck, they were long before TMA's. 2. There are a lot of things you will never learn training for a respective sport unless you personally take out the time to step outside your comfort zone. Your standard MMA gym isn't teaching knife defense or awareness training. They may offer it through their BJJ or if they have a TMA, but it's not part of the Cage Fighting Curriculum.

Just something to think about while you and Chris butt heads

See i go the other way with that theory. If you cant be successful sparring with rules how are you going to fair in a fight without them. If you are successful with rules then you will be more successful when the rules are not holding you back.

Now that is not a reason to abandon survival or street methods but it is a reason to train in a system that is at the very least starts with good fighting basics.

Ok SD on resisting opponents is sport as i imagine you are describing it. Very few people when they say SD. Are suggesting that you go out and get practice mugged. So it becomes training in a gym under a rule set.

wrestling is one of the oldest martial arts. Sumo pretty much predates most Japanese systems. So i would suggest sort fighting is as old as any system and possibly older.

But yes mma does not cover everything required to do be well rounded in self defence. But here i advice people seek out quality guys. So if you want to stay out of jail. Legal advice from a qualified lawyer who has gone though it would be better than the advice from your self defence coach.

Specifically regarding knife defence is tricky. Because there is so much theory and misinformation. And so little real data.

 

[Drose427]

See i go the other way with that theory. If you cant be successful sparring with rules how are you going to fair in a fight without them. If you are successful with rules then you will be more successful when the rules are not holding you back.

Now that is not a reason to abandon survival or street methods but it is a reason to train in a system that is at the very least starts with good fighting basics.

Ok SD on resisting opponents is sport as i imagine you are describing it. Very few people when they say SD. Are suggesting that you go out and get practice mugged. So it becomes training in a gym under a rule set.

wrestling is one of the oldest martial arts. Sumo pretty much predates most Japanese systems. So i would suggest sort fighting is as old as any system and possibly older.

But yes mma does not cover everything required to do be well rounded in self defence. But here i advice people seek out quality guys. So if you want to stay out of jail. Legal advice from a qualified lawyer who has gone though it would be better than the advice from your self defence coach.

Specifically regarding knife defence is tricky. Because there is so much theory and misinformation. And so little real data.

For the first part easily. I cant step in the cage. Reason being, last time I heard of and did this with my MMA friends, I instinctively tried to do the SD techs I've drilled into my head. I.E. When they try to clinch, I headbutt, and stomp down on the knee. shin, and foot. After a bit of adrenaline gets in my system, when theyd shoot, the first thing Id try to do after a sprawl was a downward punch or elbow to the back of the head. After the first couple times, I was able to catch myself but it was really affecting my ability to spar under their ruleset.

When we split it up, which is how most gyms actually train for those who dont know, it wasn't that bad. Mostly with grappling, because after I hurt my shoulder the only grappling and rolling I do is SD oriented. Instead of worrying about scoring and protecting myself from being scored on, Im drilling sprawling, getting back to a neutral position, and never stopped attack with something no matter what. With striking, I work with 3 different rulesets so I dont get so used to one that it becomes how I fight.

I cant box anymore either, because Ive put so much time trying to get all 4 limbs working as one that I kick, which is obviously a no-no.



Training for specific set of rules as your focus is a restriction.


Second, your implication that for a school to have good fighting basics must be sport oriented is very flawed. The military doesnt teach sport fighting, yet I'd doubt your typical Sport fighter could beat up a Marine.

Third, not sure what youre going for. Theres little difference between a drunk guy in the parking lot swinging at you and someone else twice as large as you coming for blood in a training hall.

Fourth, yes but cavemen were defending themsels from other cavemen long before Greco-Roman wrestling. Before sport or style. Animals fend off predators in the wild, are they not really fighting for their life because they dont train in sport?

Fifth, you basically just proved my point. Sport training isnt the "best" way to go about learning to defend yourself. It cant be since you have to add SD training to it. Your argument of "Sport fighting is the best method" is essentially the same as saying style X is better than style y because we do this and you do not. Or, you do it a different way.

Yes, theres a lot of theories. But there are also many simple concepts to understand techs to learn so that you at least have some knowledge or idea of how to respond. But i've never seen it in an MMA gym. I have no doubt, gyms with a separate SD program will have it. But I;ve never seen it as part of a Sport curriculum under any style. Aside from the minute possibility you need it in SD, you probably will never use or see it in a tournament, so why should a sports school teach it?

Another problem, I did Bullpin sparring and 2 v 1 kickboxing with my MMA friends. It didnt end well. They spent so long training to focus on one opponent and blocking out the rest, because in the ring they'll never fight 2. They had a hard time balancing it out. Whereas in 5 years of SD focused non sport style, my heads on a swivel. WE teach to always be aware and take note of everyone and everything in any given place, the mantra "have a way to kill everyone you see." They hadn't even heard that from their coaches.

Obviously, regardless of your style, cross training and exposure are the 2 most important things. But the idea that Sport Training is a necessity is a fallacy.

 

[drop bear]

Second, your implication that for a school to have good fighting basics must be sport oriented is very flawed. The military doesnt teach sport fighting, yet I'd doubt your typical Sport fighter could beat up a Marine.

just this one specifically.
Of course your typical sports fighter can beat up a marine. Why would you think otherwise?

 

[tshadowchaser]

If you cant be successful sparring with rules how are you going to fair in a fight without them. If you are successful with rules then you will be more successful when the rules are not holding you back.

I have known many street fighters (gang members, bikers, etc.) in my day and not a one of them would have been any good fighting within a set of rules but they sure could kick butt in the street or in a bar.

 

[Drose427]

I have known many street fighters (gang members, bikers, etc.) in my day and not a one of them would have been any good fighting within a set of rules but they sure could kick butt in the street or in a bar.

They really are two different monsters entirely

 

[drop bear]

I have known many street fighters (gang members, bikers, etc.) in my day and not a one of them would have been any good fighting within a set of rules but they sure could kick butt in the street or in a bar.

yeah but how did these street fighters get good?

Because if it ends with something something fight quality guys........