MMA and similar arts are not true Martial Arts?

[drop bear]

Everything someone learns in an MMA gym comes from a specific separate style. Call it whatever you want, but when it's picture perfect, unchanged from style A, it's Style A. Not some "new martial art" because you say so or therest a new venue.

Wait a second. It is picture perfect only because you say so. Which I fundamentally disagree with.

And most martial arts are derivative of something else. So how is mma different in that respect?

 

[Drose427]

What if I win a karate competition? They have them that don't require kihon or bunkai. Then i would be a karate expert.

Nobody has said anything about experts but you.......

Sparse gyms having a belt system doesn't speak for MMA as a whole.

I'll say it one more time then I'm done.

Virtually nothing in MMA is specifically MMA. Nothing. Mostly they are exact techs from other Arts.

If Jimmy has to write a creative story, but instead he decides to have tommy, jim, and pokey each write a paragraph then just turn that in. Jimmy didn't write it just because he said he did.

Another, say Jimmy has to write a research paper, and cites nothing. Just takes credit for it all.

When a move is not changed from its root style, you can't sit and claim it's a new style....

You can say they're fundamentally different all you want, but even in the video you posted, I listed the move used and their respective style. I've seen that leg kick that exact way in shorin Ryu enough to know it's a karate kick.

when you can physically see its the same technique and still say its fundamentally different, that's just denial.

The difference between MMA and other Arts borrowing I have already explained several times.

They changed things, techniques, stances, methods, etc. Depending on the beliefs and experiences of the founders.

MMA has changed hardly anything at all. You can still very easily tell exactly what style a tech is from.

 

[Danny T]

So I have several martial artists who fight in MMA events. Some also fight in boxing and muay thai events. Some compete in wrestling and no gi events.
Many are quite highly trained in Wing Chun, Muay Thai, Pekiti-Tirsia, wrestling and some BJJ. Have some who also have training in Shotokan. Are they MMA? I have some who only train in some aspects of Muay Thai, wrestling, and some BJJ. Are they MMA? Or, are they simply fighting in MMA sport events?

 

[Drose427]

So I have several martial artists who fight in MMA events. Some also fight in boxing and muay thai events. Some compete in wrestling and no gi events.
Many are quite highly trained in Wing Chun, Muay Thai, Pekiti-Tirsia, wrestling and some BJJ. Have some who also have training in Shotokan. Are they MMA? I have some who only train in some aspects of Muay Thai, wrestling, and some BJJ. Are they MMA? Or, are they simply fighting in MMA sport events?

To me, they're normal cross training martial artists. Training in multiple arts to cover all their bases for MMA events or SD. Not just referring to your guys Danny, but other MMA guys who are actively learning from multiple styles.

Technically I could (and would) say they are mixed Martial Artists because they are mixing the martial arts they learn.

But I don't consider their personal or the stabdard mixture of definitive moves from specific martial arts that arent really changed or adapted much a standalone new style of martial arts. In Tma's when a new style takes from an old, they change a good portion of it. A huge portion of techniques you see in MMA are the same as from their root styles.

When I can learn to strike like many high level MMA guys such as Pettis, Silva, machida, or Grapple like a gracie (at a far inferior level than all of these guys of course) without ever stepping foot in an MMA Gym, or training with an MMA coach, I personally can't consider MMA it's own individual style or martial art.

And there's nothing wrong with that. MMA not being it's own individual style doest make it any less legitimate does it? Is it not still a regulated, officialized, and legitimate competitive platform?

Its always been about a format for cross training and fighting other martial arts, since day one.

Again, this has all been my opinion on the subject based around OP's question and the justifications I have for my opinion

 

[drop bear]

Nobody has said anything about experts but you.......

Sparse gyms having a belt system doesn't speak for MMA as a whole.

I'll say it one more time then I'm done.

Virtually nothing in MMA is specifically MMA. Nothing. Mostly they are exact techs from other Arts.

If Jimmy has to write a creative story, but instead he decides to have tommy, jim, and pokey each write a paragraph then just turn that in. Jimmy didn't write it just because he said he did.

Another, say Jimmy has to write a research paper, and cites nothing. Just takes credit for it all.

When a move is not changed from its root style, you can't sit and claim it's a new style....

You can say they're fundamentally different all you want, but even in the video you posted, I listed the move used and their respective style. I've seen that leg kick that exact way in shorin Ryu enough to know it's a karate kick.

when you can physically see its the same technique and still say its fundamentally different, that's just denial.

The difference between MMA and other Arts borrowing I have already explained several times.

They changed things, techniques, stances, methods, etc. Depending on the beliefs and experiences of the founders.

MMA has changed hardly anything at all. You can still very easily tell exactly what style a tech is from.

jimmy uses words exactly like other people have used just in a different order. So therefore jimmy never wrote anything new.

 

[Drose427]

jimmy uses words exactly like other people have used just in a different order. So therefore jimmy never wrote anything new.

Lol so by that logic, every style punches the same way because they're punches...you missed that point completely

 

[drop bear]

So I have several martial artists who fight in MMA events. Some also fight in boxing and muay thai events. Some compete in wrestling and no gi events.
Many are quite highly trained in Wing Chun, Muay Thai, Pekiti-Tirsia, wrestling and some BJJ. Have some who also have training in Shotokan. Are they MMA? I have some who only train in some aspects of Muay Thai, wrestling, and some BJJ. Are they MMA? Or, are they simply fighting in MMA sport events?

Mma the competition and mma the martial art. Two things. Sometimes the same. Sometimes different.

 

[drop bear]

Lol so by that logic, every style punches the same way because they're punches...you missed that point completely

No your point does not have a foundation. It relies on mma to be technically the same as another art. Which it isn't. Regardless of whether you say it is or isn't. Which is why classes are separated into mma specific training.

And then if it is exactly the same as a bunch of different arts codified into its own system. Then it is its own system. And the reason for this is if you go back far enough there are very few martial arts that are not derivative.

 

[Drose427]

No your point does not have a foundation. It relies on mma to be technically the same as another art. Which it isn't. Regardless of whether you say it is or isn't. Which is why classes are separated into mma specific training.

And then if it is exactly the same as a bunch of different arts codified into its own system. Then it is its own system. And the reason for this is if you go back far enough there are very few martial arts that are not derivative.

Yes, but all those derivative martial arts changed something. MMA has not. I pointed out in your video the exact styles method the fighter used from multiple martial arts.

And no my point does have foundation.
if you're writing a paper on relativity, and use passages from Einstein, you don't just claim "it's my paper". You give credit to Einstein. It's his paper, not yours or some other 3Rd parties because you're using it in conjunction with other sources.

When a technique is from BJJ you don't just say it's an "MMA choke" or that an axe kick a La TKD is "an MMA Axe Kick". Because they are blatantly from a different style.

Karate comes from Chinese Martial arts, but looks nothing like Kung Fu.

Same with Karate and Modern TKD.

But when Pettis throws a TKD kick, it looks exactly like it would in tKD.

When silva throws a front kick, it looks exactly like it does in TKD.

MMA isn't the same as an art. It's Cross training in ARTS.

 

[Danny T]

Mma the competition and mma the martial art. Two things. Sometimes the same. Sometimes different.

Hmmm.
But non of them train in MMA. We have a Muay Thai class, a CSW class, a Kali class, a Wing Chun class, a Fitness kickboxing class. Cross Training?? How about they simply are training... in whatever we are teaching at the time they are in to train. How about we are simply martial artists.
As for myself I am a senior full instructor in the Wing Chun association I am in. I am an Associate Instructor in the Muay Thai organization I'm in, I'm a senior guro in the kali assoication I'm in. And I have a lot of training in some other systems. So I'm a cross trainer or am I a MMA'er or am I just a martial artist with a lot of high level training in a lot of systems?

 

[drop bear]

Hmmm.
But non of them train in MMA. We have a Muay Thai class, a CSW class, a Kali class, a Wing Chun class, a Fitness kickboxing class. Cross Training?? How about they simply are training... in whatever we are teaching at the time they are in to train. How about we are simply martial artists.
As for myself I am a senior full instructor in the Wing Chun association I am in. I am an Associate Instructor in the Muay Thai organization I'm in, I'm a senior guro in the kali assoication I'm in. And I have a lot of training in some other systems. So I'm a cross trainer or am I a MMA'er or am I just a martial artist with a lot of high level training in a lot of systems?

Do the systems that you train in set standards to be the instructor of wing chun and so on?

Or are we all instructors of wing chun in a hopelessly generic way?

Once you have codified a system it is a real martial art. It doesn't matter if it is made up. Plenty of martial arts have been.

So you would cross train until you created a system that combines the individual styles.

 

[drop bear]

Yes, but all those derivative martial arts changed something. MMA has not. I pointed out in your video the exact styles method the fighter used from multiple martial arts.

And no my point does have foundation.
if you're writing a paper on relativity, and use passages from Einstein, you don't just claim "it's my paper". You give credit to Einstein. It's his paper, not yours or some other 3Rd parties because you're using it in conjunction with other sources.

When a technique is from BJJ you don't just say it's an "MMA choke" or that an axe kick a La TKD is "an MMA Axe Kick". Because they are blatantly from a different style.

Karate comes from Chinese Martial arts, but looks nothing like Kung Fu.

Same with Karate and Modern TKD.

But when Pettis throws a TKD kick, it looks exactly like it would in tKD.

When silva throws a front kick, it looks exactly like it does in TKD.

MMA isn't the same as an art. It's Cross training in ARTS.

They are generic moves. No style has ownership of them. Claiming ming punching is boxing kicking is karate and ground fighting is bjj. Is not the whole story.

Does shotokan do inside leg kicks?

 

[Drose427]

They are generic moves. No style has ownership of them. Claiming ming punching is boxing kicking is karate and ground fighting is bjj. Is not the whole story.

Does shotokan do inside leg kicks?

You're right, but now you're grasping at straws. One another thread you argued that a Karate Reverse punch or straight punch was nothing like a Boxers jab. So I know you don't actually have the "they're all just the same move" mentality.

But styles do many of them very differently and are usually very distinct from one another.

A muay Thai roundhouse is not a karate roundhouse.

I can't do a high knee raise chamber roundhouse at a karate or TSD school and say "oh its an MMA kick" or "its a Muay ThaI kick" because they know it's their exact technique\method of doing that kick.

When a fighter does a picture perfect Karate roundhouse, he's doing a Karate style roundhouse or karate kick.

When a fighter uses the exact technique\method he learned in Karate or TKD, he's using that styles kick. Not some new or improved MMA kick

He's using a TMA's tech in the ring, not some new style.

 

[drop bear]

You're right, but now you're grasping at straws. One another thread you argued that a Karate Reverse punch or straight punch was nothing like a Boxers jab. So I know you don't actually have the "they're all just the same move" mentality.

But styles do many of them very differently and are usually very distinct from one another.

A muay Thai roundhouse is not a karate roundhouse.

I can't do a high knee raise chamber roundhouse at a karate or TSD school and say "oh its an MMA kick" or "its a Muay ThaI kick" because they know it's their exact technique\method of doing that kick.

When a fighter does a picture perfect Karate roundhouse, he's doing a Karate style roundhouse or karate kick.

When a fighter uses the exact technique\method he learned in Karate or TKD, he's using that styles kick. Not some new or improved MMA kick

He's using a TMA's tech in the ring, not some new style.

There is a difference between a style and a technique. A new style can have familiar techniques in it.

Correlation does not equal causation. So it may look like a shoren ryu kick. But have not come from shoren ryu making it not a karate kick. Especially in this case if fired off from a different stance potentially to a different target area and also with a different part of the foot. (unless shoren ryu are notorious leg kickers)

 

[drop bear]

Some ground work as a comparison.

 

[Drose427]

There is a difference between a style and a technique. A new style can have familiar techniques in it.

Correlation does not equal causation. So it may look like a shoren ryu kick. But have not come from shoren ryu making it not a karate kick. Especially in this case if fired off from a different stance potentially to a different target area and also with a different part of the foot. (unless shoren ryu are notorious leg kickers)

Stance and target are irrelevant....in TSD we use the same chamber for our kicks regardless of which kicking leg or target we are using and going for. We also can hit you with shin, instep, or ball of the foot. There isn't some standard striking area....

A style also uses specific techniques....

Unless now Muay Thai roundhouses are thrown from a high knee chamber with either leg.....

is my style now doing straight leg kicks like in Muay Thai too?

Again, a new style would have adapted techniques. Not techniques that are blatantly, picture perfect from other styles.

The latter is a result of a martial artist cross training and using that training in the ring.

There's a big difference between familiar method and exact Method. The majority of the time, the latter is what you see in MMA.

I can point out the exact style of striking techniques a fighter uses. It isn't hard.

A grappler here can do it with a fighters grappling.

If a technique is very blatantly from style A, done the way of Style A, which is a completely different method than style b or X, I'm not gonna call it "New Style X or B" because it was used in style B or X's competition.

There is virtually nothing new or specific about techniques used in MMA Denoting it as a new, modern, or independent style.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Does shotokan do inside leg kicks?

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This is where the generalizations about style lead people to believe that their knowledge of a particular technique or style means they are competent on the style's entire syllabus.
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Again, using Shotokan, we don't see inside leg kicks in kihon practice. However, there are fighting approaches, kata bunkai where the principle is taught, the application made. See Tatsuya Naka, JKA Shotokan kumite champion for example.
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i AGREE for practical purposes MMA is a conventional style of fighting consisting of generally sport-fighting methods. The opposing view is also correct, technically, that MMA is a sanctioned sport where competitors bring existing martial art styles together in combination.
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There's room for both definitions.

 

[drop bear]

Again, a new style would have adapted techniques. Not techniques that are blatantly, picture perfect from other styles.

Except for stance and target.

And yet we are still having this discussion.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

If youre talking about striking while in guard (yours or theirs) you really can't attribute that to MMA...folks without any for of training to that while grappling in schoolyard rumbles....it's just natural, I can hit you, so I will.

Actually, effective ground-n-pound against someone with a good guard is a bit of an art in itself. It's not just instinctive schoolyard punching - classic BJJ handles that approach easily enough. I'm talking about a systematic approach for inflicting damage from within a skilled persons guard without getting swept or submitted. You won't find that kind of training in classic BJJ* or wrestling or karate or boxing. It's something that evolved with the development of MMA.

*(Classic BJJ emphasizes passing the guard before really unloading on an opponent. Some of the BJJ/vale tudo pioneers did train a certain amount of punching from within the guard, but the primary objective was still to get the guy on the bottom to open the guard. It wasn't as advanced as what people are doing now.)

 

[Drose427]

Except for stance and target.

And yet we are still having this discussion.

Stance and target do not change technique..

Again, you can throw a karate roundhouse from any stance, to any part of your opponents body, and it's still a karate roundhiuse..