What is a mcdojo?

[Flying Crane]

How low??? OK, Here's something I just came across. The local Mc Dojo in my neighborhood strip mall was suddenly vacant, its store front empty. No mats, no posters, no more five-foot tall plastic trophies, and no more hoards of kiddie black belts swarming into the sandwich shop next door when I'm trying to have a nice quiet lunch. And not even a note in the window explaining what had happened. Broke? Moved? Busted for dealing drugs? Who knows! So I went on line and checked out their web site. Sorry, I got no answers as to why they were closed, but I did find this.

Apparently they specialized in birthday, holiday and special occasion parties, including sleep-overs. The magician is out of town? Can't book a clown for your kiddie's party? Well, you can hire one of their crack team of blackbelts to fill the occasion!!! And kids think clowns are scary.

Personally, I can't think of a better way to dignify the considerable time many of us have spent developing our skills than to host kiddie parties and entertain a couple of dozen screaming tykes all juiced up on cake and ice cream. Good Lord! Maybe the school didn't go broke. Maybe all the instructors just killed themselves.

I realize this is an old thread, but it just got necromanced.

Yesterday I saw a job posting for martial arts instructor. It is in the Bay Area (San Francisco) and is too far from me to make sense, so I won’t be applying. Maybe they will eventually expand into the Sacramento area.

At any rate, there appears to be a company that offers after school music and movement instruction to kids. Looks like they are a contractor who comes into the school campus after class hours to provide the instruction. Gotta be good with kids. The hours are low, 1-2 hours per afternoon, but the advertised pay is $80-100 per hour. Well ok, at 10 hours a week, $100 per hour, that comes to $4000 per month. Yah know, for that, I think I could learn to like teaching kids…

 

[Mider]

You aren’t likely to get it from a 13 year old thread.

Maybe they should close these then

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What’s the difference between mcdojo n bullshido? I’d love an explanation

They're both highly subjective terms and are both frequently applied indiscriminately to any school or art the speaker doesn't like. However they do have different meanings.

"McDojo" is generally a term describing a business model. The idea is that it describes a school focused around maximizing profit rather than producing accomplished martial arts. Indicators might be long-term contracts, hidden expenses, frequent belt tests with accompanying fees, low rank standards, and avoidance of challenges which might scare off students, such as hard contact sparring.

Bullshido generally describes an art or practices within an art or presentations by an instructor which purport to be highly combat effective, but which are very much not so. The purest example of this would be demonstrations of magical powers such as "no-touch knockouts."

I don't find either term to be particularly useful, since they end up being just used as pejoratives for any system or school that the speaker doesn't care for. If I have a criticism to make of a system, school, or instructor I'd rather confine it to the specific matters I find objectionable. In my experience, even arts or schools which I have many issues with also often have aspects which might like or find praiseworthy. I'd rather stick to focused critique than dismiss them entirely with an overbroad insult.

 

[Mider]

They're both highly subjective terms and are both frequently applied indiscriminately to any school or art the speaker doesn't like. However they do have different meanings.

"McDojo" is generally a term describing a business model. The idea is that it describes a school focused around maximizing profit rather than producing accomplished martial arts. Indicators might be long-term contracts, hidden expenses, frequent belt tests with accompanying fees, low rank standards, and avoidance of challenges which might scare off students, such as hard contact sparring.

Bullshido generally describes an art or practices within an art or presentations by an instructor which purport to be highly combat effective, but which are very much not so. The purest example of this would be demonstrations of magical powers such as "no-touch knockouts."

I don't find either term to be particularly useful, since they end up being just used as pejoratives for any system or school that the speaker doesn't care for. If I have a criticism to make of a system, school, or instructor I'd rather confine it to the specific matters I find objectionable. In my experience, even arts or schools which I have many issues with also often have aspects which might like or find praiseworthy. I'd rather stick to focused critique than dismiss them entirely with an overbroad insult.

I get the notion, thank you for explaining

IMO if people are awarding Black belts to students who can’t even defend themselves then it’s pretty much unethical. I say that because many here have the audacity to defend these type of dojo’s

bullshido...I mean I haven’t seen as much of that

 

[lklawson]

I get the notion, thank you for explaining

IMO if people are awarding Black belts to students who can’t even defend themselves then it’s pretty much unethical. I say that because many here have the audacity to defend these type of dojo’s

bullshido...I mean I haven’t seen as much of that

Who cares? "Black Belt" means whatever the school or organization awarding it thinks it means. You don't get to tell them what it means. And when you're the one grading, they don't get to tell you what your "Black Belt" means.

Yes, that means that "Black Belt" could mean anything.

 

[Flying Crane]

I get the notion, thank you for explaining

IMO if people are awarding Black belts to students who can’t even defend themselves then it’s pretty much unethical. I say that because many here have the audacity to defend these type of dojo’s

bullshido...I mean I haven’t seen as much of that

I gotta ask: can’t defend themselves against whom? An angry eight year-old throwing a tantrum? Your 96 year-old grandmother who can’t get around without a wheelchair? Some guy with a chip on his shoulder who bumps into you in the grocery store, trying to start something? A Gang of four career thugs who like to mug people and give them a beat-down? Who qualifies?

And perhaps more importantly, how would you know if they can or cannot defend themselves?

My advice: while you have a right to an opinion of what others are doing, take care of your own training and don’t worry about what others are doing. There is a saying in the martial arts: everyone sucks to somebody. So no matter how competent you believe you are, someone else see YOU as a McDojo or as Bullshido.

 

[Mider]

I gotta ask: can’t defend themselves against whom? An angry eight year-old throwing a tantrum? Your 96 year-old grandmother who can’t get around without a wheelchair? Some guy with a chip on his shoulder who bumps into you in the grocery store, trying to start something? A Gang of four career thugs who like to mug people and give them a beat-down? Who qualifies?

And perhaps more importantly, how would you know if they can or cannot defend themselves?

My advice: while you have a right to an opinion of what others are doing, take care of your own training and don’t worry about what others are doing. There is a saying in the martial arts: everyone sucks to somebody. So no matter how competent you believe you are, someone else see YOU as a McDojo or as Bullshido.

Maybe all the above, maybe a crack head looking to rob you, maybe A rapist, who knows?

well if you can’t apply anything you’ve supposedly learned in real life situation then I think that’s a good measure

it’s a forum buddy, all we have is opinions, if you don’t like them why be here?

what exactly do you think the point 9f martial arts is? Just being in a group and having fun or learning how to actually strike, kick and grapple and in other cases use weapons ?

 

[lklawson]

Maybe all the above, maybe a crack head looking to rob you, maybe A rapist, who knows?

well if you can’t apply anything you’ve supposedly learned in real life situation then I think that’s a good measure

it’s a forum buddy, all we have is opinions, if you don’t like them why be here?

what exactly do you think the point 9f martial arts is? Just being in a group and having fun or learning how to actually strike, kick and grapple and in other cases use weapons ?

What makes you think that the study of martial arts has to be about your personal definition of self-defense? Maybe people want to study martial arts because of a historical or ethnic connection? Maybe they just want a good workout? Maybe they love the art and think of it as "moving meditation?" Maybe the art that they're studying focuses on things that were useful in defense or combat 500 years ago but are maybe not as applicable now?

Or what happens after a person is too old, broken down, beaten up, and decrepit to fight off that gaggle of young thugs? Should he have a black belt revoked?

Honestly, you seem to have taken an extremely narrow and myopic position on this. Maybe you just hadn't had a chance to think it through yet? I encourage you to do so now.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)

 

[Flying Crane]

Maybe all the above, maybe a crack head looking to rob you, maybe A rapist, who knows?

well if you can’t apply anything you’ve supposedly learned in real life situation then I think that’s a good measure

it’s a forum buddy, all we have is opinions, if you don’t like them why be here?

what exactly do you think the point 9f martial arts is? Just being in a group and having fun or learning how to actually strike, kick and grapple and in other cases use weapons ?

It is a forum and I am sharing my opinion. I’ve pointed out to you that you made a comment that is poorly defined and impossible to even know the truth of. I’m not trying to be snarky. I am adding to the discussion, as I can only assume you believe you are.

 

[Mider]

It is a forum and I am sharing my opinion. I’ve pointed out to you that you made a comment that is poorly defined and impossible to even know the truth of. I’m not trying to be snarky. I am adding to the discussion, as I can only assume you believe you are.

i did define it, a place where proper instruction isn’t made and students can’t defend themselves. Thus the example of students getting belts they don’t deserve

 

[Flying Crane]

i did define it, a place where proper instruction isn’t made and students can’t defend themselves. Thus the example of students getting belts they don’t deserve

But defend themselves against whom? And how would you even know?

 

[Mider]

But defend themselves against whom? And how would you even know?

I just gave you examples, do we need to write every situation in every scenario ?

Ok let’s say I was a self defense instructor and you were say security...and I told you giggling made a knife attack stopped would you consider my dojo legit ?

 

[Flying Crane]

I just gave you examples, do we need to write every situation in every scenario ?

Ok let’s say I was a self defense instructor and you were say security...and I told you giggling made a knife attack stopped would you consider my dojo legit ?

I would consider that advice suspect. Have you seen someone give that advice? Or is that just a made-up example for the sake of discussion?

I’m gonna be honest with you: I agree that there are a lot of schools teaching junk, to a very low standard of quality. That is my opinion. If a friend asked for advice on a school that he was considering enrolling his kids in, or himself or his wife or his cousin was looking for some advice, I would be honest with him and share my feelings and why I feel the way that I do. If the school he was considering is one that I felt is junk, I would tell him so. That is our private discussion. But ultimately it is his choice if he still decides to enroll his kids there.

But I don’t go about publicly denouncing the school as either a McDojo or Bullshido. That isn’t my job nor my right, to try to deliberately hurt someone’s business and livelihood. Further, even though I feel the school isn’t very good, I have no idea if any of the students can actually defend themselves. There is no way for me to know that. Maybe they can, or at least some of them can. So I am in no position to make a claim like, “they put black belts on students who can’t even defend themselves”. It’s a claim I cannot support. I do not know the truth of it. It isn’t for me to decide if they are a McDojo or Bullshido. I have my opinion, but my opinion is not the decider for all. If they have a robust enrollment, then clearly a significant number of people are finding value in what they are teaching. Is it just exercise? Is it a social club? Is it actual fighting? I dunno and it isn’t for me to dictate what some other school needs to teach, nor how they need to teach it. It’s none of my business, even though I still have the right to an opinion.

So again I say: take care of your own training and don’t worry about what others are doing. And yes, you do have the right to an opinion, but no, you are not the karate quality police.

 

[Mider]

I would consider that advice suspect. Have you seen someone give that advice? Or is that just a made-up example for the sake of discussion?

I’m gonna be honest with you: I agree that there are a lot of schools teaching junk, to a very low standard of quality. That is my opinion. If a friend asked for advice on a school that he was considering enrolling his kids in, or himself or his wife or his cousin was looking for some advice, I would be honest with him and share my feelings and why I feel the way that I do. If the school he was considering is one that I felt is junk, I would tell him so. That is our private discussion. But ultimately it is his choice if he still decides to enroll his kids there.

But I don’t go about publicly denouncing the school as either a McDojo or Bullshido. That isn’t my job nor my right, to try to deliberately hurt someone’s business and livelihood. Further, even though I feel the school isn’t very good, I have no idea if any of the students can actually defend themselves. There is no way for me to know that. Maybe they can, or at least some of them can. So I am in no position to make a claim like, “they put black belts on students who can’t even defend themselves”. It’s a claim I cannot support. I do not know the truth of it. It isn’t for me to decide if they are a McDojo or Bullshido. I have my opinion, but my opinion is not the decider for all. If they have a robust enrollment, then clearly a significant number of people are finding value in what they are teaching. Is it just exercise? Is it a social club? Is it actual fighting? I dunno and it isn’t for me to dictate what some other school needs to teach, nor how they need to teach it. It’s none of my business, even though I still have the right to an opinion.

So again I say: take care of your own training and don’t worry about what others are doing. And yes, you do have the right to an opinion, but no, you are not the karate quality police.

So then you agree that some schools teach bs? Then why are you against me or anyone calling out a school for teaching bs?

maybe these are ok teachers?

Or this?

Because first you went off saying we can’t decide a standard of what a bad school is...well there is a standard, there’s a standard of a good school, a bad school. Just like there’s a standard of anything.

 

[Flying Crane]

So then you agree that some schools teach bs?

of course. I stated as much in my prior post.

Then why are you against me or anyone calling out a school for teaching bs?

I'm not, in the proper context. I actually outlined a possible and believable scenario where I would advize someone to not join a school if I felt their quality was low. But I did point out that you made a broad generalization that I am doubtful you could support.

maybe these are ok teachers?

Or this?

I don't know, I havent watched the videos. To be honest, it is rare for me to see something on Youtube that I feel is high quality. I am simply not easily impressed.

Because first you went off saying we can’t decide a standard of what a bad school is...well there is a standard, there’s a standard of a good school, a bad school. Just like there’s a standard of anything.

My position is rather a question of who gets to decide the standards that everyone would be expected to follow? Because at least in the US, there literally are no standards. None whatsoever. There are no government/legally sanctioned governing bodies for martial arts. While "governing bodies" do exist, they are private organizations and nobody has any obligation to hold membership in them. The only power such organizations may hold over a non-member, would be to enforce that a non-member or non-certified instructor (certified under that particular agency) not use their organization name or otherwise falsly imply that the organization has endorsed them, in their teaching activities. But even that can get murky but I won't go into it unless you are interested.

Anybody can teach martial arts, to the best of their ability, whether that ability is high or low or even non-existant. If they find someone willing to pay them for it, then they are in business and nobody can stop them. If someone begins a public campaign of of smearing the reputation of the school or teacher in an attempt to run the school out of business, the school owner can have their attorney send a Cease-and Desist letter demanding that the activity stop, and if that doesnt' help, he can file a defamation lawsuit against them or even having a restraining order placed against them if their behavior is bad enough.

so really, at least here in the US, it is the wild wild west when it comes to teaching martial arts. You may not like that, but it is the truth and if you decide to start a crusade against every school that you have simply decided does not meet with your standards, life for you is going to become pretty miserable in a hurry.

You need to be careful of what you wish for. Let's pretend that a government quality enforcement agency for martial arts teaching is established. What do you do when they show up at your door with an order that you cease teaching martial arts because they have decided your standards are out of line?

Furthermore, let's say the State or National standards are written in such a way that they are in line with the practices of one of the more common martial methods, like perhaps Tae Kwon Do, and now all martial arts must be taught and practiced according to Tae Kwon Do standards or you are breaking the law. And the reason for this is because when the Government Agency was established there happened to be a Tae Kwon Do school down the street from one of the lawmakers, and the teacher convinced the lawmaker that he needs to be the one to write the standards because he is a 12th degree grandmaster who belings to a bunch of soke organizations. But you don't teach Tae Kwon Do, you teach...I dunno...Aikido for example. You are out of business until you begin teaching to Tae Kwon Do standards.

I'm not trying to beat up on TKD here. I am simply using it as an example because it is a very popular system in the US, so I could imagine the legislature simply grabbing a local TKD "ultra-grandmaster" to consult on appropriate standards that everyone is then obligated to meet, or suffer the wrath of the Law.

So this notion that there are standards that a school must be held to, well it simply is not true.

 

[lklawson]

i did define it, a place where proper instruction isn’t made and students can’t defend themselves. Thus the example of students getting belts they don’t deserve

And I'm calling that out. "Defending themselves," whatever that may or may not mean to you, is far from the only reason people study martial arts. Your thesis is rejected.

 

[Mider]

of course. I stated as much in my prior post.

I'm not, in the proper context. I actually outlined a possible and believable scenario where I would advize someone to not join a school if I felt their quality was low. But I did point out that you made a broad generalization that I am doubtful you could support.

I don't know, I havent watched the videos. To be honest, it is rare for me to see something on Youtube that I feel is high quality. I am simply not easily impressed.

My position is rather a question of who gets to decide the standards that everyone would be expected to follow? Because at least in the US, there literally are no standards. None whatsoever. There are no government/legally sanctioned governing bodies for martial arts. While "governing bodies" do exist, they are private organizations and nobody has any obligation to hold membership in them. The only power such organizations may hold over a non-member, would be to enforce that a non-member or non-certified instructor (certified under that particular agency) not use their organization name or otherwise falsly imply that the organization has endorsed them, in their teaching activities. But even that can get murky but I won't go into it unless you are interested.

Anybody can teach martial arts, to the best of their ability, whether that ability is high or low or even non-existant. If they find someone willing to pay them for it, then they are in business and nobody can stop them. If someone begins a public campaign of of smearing the reputation of the school or teacher in an attempt to run the school out of business, the school owner can have their attorney send a Cease-and Desist letter demanding that the activity stop, and if that doesnt' help, he can file a defamation lawsuit against them or even having a restraining order placed against them if their behavior is bad enough.

so really, at least here in the US, it is the wild wild west when it comes to teaching martial arts. You may not like that, but it is the truth and if you decide to start a crusade against every school that you have simply decided does not meet with your standards, life for you is going to become pretty miserable in a hurry.

You need to be careful of what you wish for. Let's pretend that a government quality enforcement agency for martial arts teaching is established. What do you do when they show up at your door with an order that you cease teaching martial arts because they have decided your standards are out of line?

Furthermore, let's say the State or National standards are written in such a way that they are in line with the practices of one of the more common martial methods, like perhaps Tae Kwon Do, and now all martial arts must be taught and practiced according to Tae Kwon Do standards or you are breaking the law. And the reason for this is because when the Government Agency was established there happened to be a Tae Kwon Do school down the street from one of the lawmakers, and the teacher convinced the lawmaker that he needs to be the one to write the standards because he is a 12th degree grandmaster who belings to a bunch of soke organizations. But you don't teach Tae Kwon Do, you teach...I dunno...Aikido for example. You are out of business until you begin teaching to Tae Kwon Do standards.

I'm not trying to beat up on TKD here. I am simply using it as an example because it is a very popular system in the US, so I could imagine the legislature simply grabbing a local TKD "ultra-grandmaster" to consult on appropriate standards that everyone is then obligated to meet, or suffer the wrath of the Law.

So this notion that there are standards that a school must be held to, well it simply is not true.

Every individual gets to

of course. I stated as much in my prior post.

I'm not, in the proper context. I actually outlined a possible and believable scenario where I would advize someone to not join a school if I felt their quality was low. But I did point out that you made a broad generalization that I am doubtful you could support.

I don't know, I havent watched the videos. To be honest, it is rare for me to see something on Youtube that I feel is high quality. I am simply not easily impressed.

My position is rather a question of who gets to decide the standards that everyone would be expected to follow? Because at least in the US, there literally are no standards. None whatsoever. There are no government/legally sanctioned governing bodies for martial arts. While "governing bodies" do exist, they are private organizations and nobody has any obligation to hold membership in them. The only power such organizations may hold over a non-member, would be to enforce that a non-member or non-certified instructor (certified under that particular agency) not use their organization name or otherwise falsly imply that the organization has endorsed them, in their teaching activities. But even that can get murky but I won't go into it unless you are interested.

Anybody can teach martial arts, to the best of their ability, whether that ability is high or low or even non-existant. If they find someone willing to pay them for it, then they are in business and nobody can stop them. If someone begins a public campaign of of smearing the reputation of the school or teacher in an attempt to run the school out of business, the school owner can have their attorney send a Cease-and Desist letter demanding that the activity stop, and if that doesnt' help, he can file a defamation lawsuit against them or even having a restraining order placed against them if their behavior is bad enough.

so really, at least here in the US, it is the wild wild west when it comes to teaching martial arts. You may not like that, but it is the truth and if you decide to start a crusade against every school that you have simply decided does not meet with your standards, life for you is going to become pretty miserable in a hurry.

You need to be careful of what you wish for. Let's pretend that a government quality enforcement agency for martial arts teaching is established. What do you do when they show up at your door with an order that you cease teaching martial arts because they have decided your standards are out of line?

Furthermore, let's say the State or National standards are written in such a way that they are in line with the practices of one of the more common martial methods, like perhaps Tae Kwon Do, and now all martial arts must be taught and practiced according to Tae Kwon Do standards or you are breaking the law. And the reason for this is because when the Government Agency was established there happened to be a Tae Kwon Do school down the street from one of the lawmakers, and the teacher convinced the lawmaker that he needs to be the one to write the standards because he is a 12th degree grandmaster who belings to a bunch of soke organizations. But you don't teach Tae Kwon Do, you teach...I dunno...Aikido for example. You are out of business until you begin teaching to Tae Kwon Do standards.

I'm not trying to beat up on TKD here. I am simply using it as an example because it is a very popular system in the US, so I could imagine the legislature simply grabbing a local TKD "ultra-grandmaster" to consult on appropriate standards that everyone is then obligated to meet, or suffer the wrath of the Law.

So this notion that there are standards that a school must be held to, well it simply is not true.

well you yourself said you wouldn’t go to certain places...so obviously the standard lies with you and others

you can argue the point over n over but to say teaching trash is ok is unethical, I mean is it legal. Fine

we are discussing legal we are talking about what a mcdojo is, why do you feel the need to spin off into all this other stuff?

 

[Flying Crane]

Every individual gets to

well you yourself said you wouldn’t go to certain places...so obviously the standard lies with you and others

you can argue the point over n over but to say teaching trash is ok is unethical, I mean is it legal. Fine

we are discussing legal we are talking about what a mcdojo is, why do you feel the need to spin off into all this other stuff?

I have already agreed that people have the right to their opinion, and I would share my opinion if a friend were considering a school. Everyone has the right to decide for themselves where their standards lie. Beyond that, it’s not so simple.

Who gets to define what is trash? What about when someone decides YOU are teaching trash? What then? Seems to me it’s always trash when someone else is doing it. But you ask anyone what they are teaching, the answer is always “the best stuff possible.” So who decides, and on what criteria?

I guess the response you were hoping for in this thread was simply “YEAH!!! GRAB YOUR TORCH AND PITCHFORK!!! WE GOTTA BURN THESE MOTHERF******!!!”

Sorry to disappoint.

 

[Mider]

I have already agreed that people have the right to their opinion, and I would share my opinion if a friend were considering a school. Everyone has the right to decide for themselves where their standards lie. Beyond that, it’s not so simple.

Who gets to define what is trash? What about when someone decides YOU are teaching trash? What then? Seems to me it’s always trash when someone else is doing it. But you ask anyone what they are teaching, the answer is always “the best stuff possible.” So who decides, and on what criteria?

I guess the response you were hoping for in this thread was simply “YEAH!!! GRAB YOUR TORCH AND PITCHFORK!!! WE GOTTA BURN THESE MOTHERF******!!!”

Sorry to disappoint.

You just did say You’d define what’s trash

yes me and anyone else including you. I don’t teach anything though.

I think you’re just gas lighting, for what idk

the thread was about mcdojos and you admitted they exist. So you have a standard of what trash is

 

[Flying Crane]

You just did say You’d define what’s trash

yes me and anyone else including you. I don’t teach anything though.

I think you’re just gas lighting, for what idk

the thread was about mcdojos and you admitted they exist. So you have a standard of what trash is

I don’t understand what you are trying to accomplish here. Maybe you are just gaslighting, for what purpose idk.

I have the right to an opinion. So do you. Feel free to formulate your opinion. But understand that trying to impose your opinion on others isn’t going to get you very far. And coming here to try and get widespread agreement with your opinion likewise isn’t likely to get you very far.

I feel like I’ve said this at least a couple times now. Do I need to say it again? Is there something here that you disagree with? Do you feel you can somehow impose your opinion on others and how they train? If so, please describe how you feel you can do that.

Again, what is it you are trying to accomplish here?