In another thread, Dan and I were having a discussion about the term McDojo. This was sparked from a discussion of a school and their testing methods. Rather than sidetrack that thread, I thought I'd start this thread, so we could find out what people consider a McDojo.
What Is A McDojo?
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Balrog
Master of Arts
To me, a McDojo uses high pressure, used-car sales tactics. In addition, their belt promotions are based on whether the check for the testing fee clears the bank, rather than whether or not the student can actually perform the material.
lklawson
Grandmaster
There's a lot of definitions for "McDojo." I have a pretty good one in the rec.martial-arts Newbies Guide to Martial Arts (variously posted here on the forum).
However, all of various definitions boil down to this truth: Their goal is separating the student from his money, most often by flimflamming him into believing he is learning actual martial skills when he is not.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
However, all of various definitions boil down to this truth: Their goal is separating the student from his money, most often by flimflamming him into believing he is learning actual martial skills when he is not.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
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Back in the day, during the first "kung-fu" craze, there were lots of attempts at franchising martial arts schools-especially back east. With no offense towards anyone, anything descended from Frederick Villare, Jerome Mackey (??!!), or the Tracy's, qualifies under the original definition of "McDojo," which not only employs high-pressure sales tactics and long-term contracts, but works like a multi-level marketing scheme where students rapidly become teachers and school "owners" themselves in order to expand profits.
If the emphasis is on the business rather than the teaching side -- it's a McDojo. This doesn't mean every commercial training hall is one, or that being one is all bad. But I go to a mechanic whose emphasis is on fixing cars right, not ripping people off. (Interestingly enough, they ain't hurting for money or business...)
But it's kind of an unfair label. Mcdonalds has never claimed to be more than what they are: inexpensive, acceptable & consistent food, with a pretty much turn key process to make a decent profit doing it. Nobody's claiming a Big Mac is the epitome of fine dining, or that a visit to Mcdonalds is a meal experience comparable to The Inn at Little Washington. (Of course, you ain't going to pay nearly as much, either...) Unfortunately, the worst of the Mcdojos don't even provide that consistent basic level of quality; they're about nothing but getting the contracts signed and collecting testing fees, selling (overpriced) equipment and uniforms...
But it's kind of an unfair label. Mcdonalds has never claimed to be more than what they are: inexpensive, acceptable & consistent food, with a pretty much turn key process to make a decent profit doing it. Nobody's claiming a Big Mac is the epitome of fine dining, or that a visit to Mcdonalds is a meal experience comparable to The Inn at Little Washington. (Of course, you ain't going to pay nearly as much, either...) Unfortunately, the worst of the Mcdojos don't even provide that consistent basic level of quality; they're about nothing but getting the contracts signed and collecting testing fees, selling (overpriced) equipment and uniforms...
Any training methods or sales tactics your Karate school does not employ must be a Mc Dojo. 
(By the way... If anyone would care to arrange to host me for a seminar held at the The Inn, meals included, who am I to stop them? Maybe a good place for the next Meet & Greet? LOL)
A McDojo is a nebulous thing. Much like the US Supreme Courts Potter Stewarts opinion on pornography - "I can't really define it, but I know it when I see it".
In general, I'd say all McDojos do share some traits.
Baby Black Belts.
Belts awarded by daycare programs.
Mandatory testing, or testing students who aren't going to pass.
Isolationism - discouraging students from training or visiting outside schools.
"If you can afford it, we will award it" - If your check passes the bank test, you pass the belt test.
Any school or system that claims to have all the answers.
Any school or system that doesn't spar because it's "too dangerous".
Schools with long term contracts.
Schools that require you to buy all gear only from them.
Schools with a lot of hidden costs.
In general, I'd say all McDojos do share some traits.
Baby Black Belts.
Belts awarded by daycare programs.
Mandatory testing, or testing students who aren't going to pass.
Isolationism - discouraging students from training or visiting outside schools.
"If you can afford it, we will award it" - If your check passes the bank test, you pass the belt test.
Any school or system that claims to have all the answers.
Any school or system that doesn't spar because it's "too dangerous".
Schools with long term contracts.
Schools that require you to buy all gear only from them.
Schools with a lot of hidden costs.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
Basically any school where the amount of money that is charged is more important than the quality of instruction as in the following;
Where they promote at the drop of a hat - any hat.
The majority of the students are not corrected on bad technique and have poor skills.
The instructors are poorly qualified and skilled and don't much care about teaching properly.
They insist on contracts that you have to pay even if you do not train.
The fees are excessive and there are many of them (including hidden fees).
Where they promote at the drop of a hat - any hat.
The majority of the students are not corrected on bad technique and have poor skills.
The instructors are poorly qualified and skilled and don't much care about teaching properly.
They insist on contracts that you have to pay even if you do not train.
The fees are excessive and there are many of them (including hidden fees).
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Oohhh...I'd like to play :lol2:
Okay, I feel much better now.
- Five year old black belts running around.
- Nine year old 3rd Dans running around.
- The instructor has eighteen 10th Dans and certificates from twenty halls of fame.
- You can earn a BB in one year or less, order now, operators are standing by.
- There are 'special' testings where you can skip up to six Dan grades as long as you pay for the highest three. The test includes one form and one minute of sparring.
- The school invites a different art to teach a one weekend seminar. Then you can test for a BB in that art after just the two days of training. No previous experience required in this new art beyond the two days of training but the check MUST clear.
- Any school that teaches sport but advertises self defense.
- Any school that insists their art is 2000 years old when in fact it is around 60 years old.
- Any school where the $ comes first and the students well being comes in somewhere after dead last.
Okay, I feel much better now.
EddieCyrax
Blue Belt
I agree these lineages have a troubled history, but I train under one of these that has none of the things you describe.
Not offended...just saying
lklawson
Grandmaster
In general I agree, but these are generalities. There might be some exceptions.
I keep hearing of these. Read of some in newspapers. Never actually seen any.
Yeah, that's a flag alright. Never actually seen any. I've met one or two who claimed 10th Dan because they created their own new system. I'm suspicious of any "new system" as a general rule. Might be good. Might not. But anyone who promotes themselves to 10th is very very suspect.
- It's not unheard of for a school to invite some other system to do a seminar. Never seen one to offer a BB in the seminar art. I've seen "Certificates of Participation" however.
- Judo & BJJ have both been shown to be effective for SD.
Like TKD or Hwrang Do?
I think this one is the key.
jasonbrinn
Purple Belt
So have archery and driving but they aren't taught as self defense nor advertised as such (LOL).
lklawson
Grandmaster
Archery: Yes it is. You just have to know the right people.
Driving: Never heard of driving being used as SD.
RTKDCMB
Senior Master
Someone tries to run you off the road you can use defensive driving to prevent it.
lklawson
Grandmaster
I think that equating Defensive Driving with "martial" is a bit of a stretch.
Peace favor your sword (mobile)
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Hang around in the TKD or HKD section and you'll see many examples of each. We had a conversation on a 9yr old 3rd Dan in Hapkido just a few months ago as the most recent example.
I won't mention names, but I've seen a plethora of them.
I posted this information, including the flyer in the TKD section either last year or earlier this year. TKD school having a Korean Hapkido 'GM' come in to teach a one weekend seminar. BB was available at the end of the weekend and the ONLY requirement was a TKD BB. And in fact, it wasn't necessarily a first Dan in HKD either, it was based on the TKD Dan. So perhaps if you were a TKD 5th Dan you could maybe get a HKD 3rd Dan after two days of training. Pretty good deal for those looking for wall candy. Of course there was a fee associated with the seminar and the test.
Elements of judo and BJJ 'can' be effective for SD. But the methodology generally used to teach both isn't the most viable for SD. As I mentioned in another thread, I know Royce Gracie. He taught at SEPSI where I've taught academies. He use to teach BJJ their to Officers and had to GREATLY modify what he taught and the method in which it was taught to have it viable for Officers. As taught in a sport venue, not only is it less than optimal it can be extremely detrimental.
Doesn't make either a bad sport art, but it needs to be taught with a SD methodology and the sporting elements removed entirely.
lklawson
Grandmaster
Like I wrote, I read about them a lot but I've never actually met one. I suspect that they're far less common than the impression is. There's so much incredulity over the ones that exist that they get magnified in our consciousness, much like the Road Rage incidents have been.
Like I wrote, I haven't personally seen it. I suspect that, this too, is mercifully the exception rather than the rule.
Without going into the "Sport Fighter" argument yet again, let's just say that I've seen "Sport Fighters" do exceptionally well in real fights and I've seen "Traditional" martial artists do less well, with a side helping of "Cops arrest and detain, not 'fight' per se; their goals, and therefore training, are required to be different than non-LEO SD." We'll leave it go there.
I think your definition of Self Defense is too broad if you're likening it to LEO needs.
I want to preface my response by saying that there are plenty of lousy schools that aren't McDojos. They're just lousy schools.
A McDojo is a school that has plugged into a system that has developed over the past three decades. This system is designed to maximize the profitability of the school. If you look at large, commercial schools, and some not so large schools, you'll see the pattern. Similar times in grade for black belt (16-24 mos), a huge emphasis on the black belt, the black belt being treated as a graduation of sorts, and a system of testing fees that substantially increase the annual tuition. Finally, a huge emphasis on kids, with very young child black belts being normative and generally having a lot of colored belts between white and black.
In addition, you have side orders: Black belt clubs, masters clubs, leadership clubs, demo teams and competion teams, all of which cost extra to join and which usually come with a prize (uniform, patch, special belt, etc.). School branded equipment often serves as a side order as well, though usually not at a competitive price, which is why some McDojos require students to buy their equipment. After school programs and summer camps are also a vital part of this model, though again, because profit is the focus, these programs lack any licensing an lack certified or appropriately trained personnel that are normally found in daycare centers and preschool.
After black belt, there are generally weapons, but the weapons curriculum is designed to keep students interested rather than to actually give meaningful instruction in the weapons in question. They may learn raw basics (how to hold and how to swing in a few predetermined patterns and maybe a couple of blocks), but once they learn these raw basics, they are quickly hustled onto the next, and likely less useful, weapon. Of note, many of the McDojo schools teach arts that don't traditionally include these weapons, but which savvy school owners have learned are exciting to young students.
These schools also all have a rather similar look and similar business practices. Lengthy contracts (one year or more), high end pricing, requirements of bank drafting monthly dues through a billing company, and an excessive number of colored belts, often with ascending fees, and pretty much guaranteed passage upon payment of said fees.
Curriculum at these schools is geared towards keeping you paying. A little is dribbled out with each belt and you learn it well enough to pass the test. You then move onto the next batch of material, learn it well enough to pass the test, promote, repeat process. The self defense is sometimes fantastical, but more often it is simply geared towards competitions, though the school itself may not be particularly competitive.
The teaching at these schools is usually mediocre, though there are some with stellar teachers. While a McDojo can be a good school, the focus on profitablility places teaching in the back seat, so the level of instruction falls to the norm of mediocrity. The length of the contracts mean that there is a fuse on fee collection, so students are be passed along through the belt ranks because that final black belt test is often hundreds of dollars and they need to get those fees prior to the contract expiration.
Finally, the tests are filled with physical busy-work; calisthenics, running through warm up exercises, and essentially doing things that do nothing to show the quality of the training. The students are then praised for endurance, but a careful examination of their overal level of quality reveals that it is usually (though there are exceptions) not where it should be.
Again, the above designates a McDojo. A school can be "traditional" and have an instructor with tons of legitimate accolades and still be a lousy school. Not every champion is a teacher and low prices are no more a guarantor of quality than expensive prices are.
Additionally, a McDojo who's owner hasn't forgotten why (s)he teaches martial arts can sometimes offer a very good school that is also profitable, and thus not as likely to close when times are lean, but such schools are definitely the exception to the rule.
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