McDojos
- Thread starter Azulx
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My guess it that it is catching on, considering they can be bit more American than the Americans, sometimes. 
I cannot say with certainty, but sometimes I watch NHK Channel on TV ( I rarely watch TV at all, it's a mind killer). They had a segment on a Ninja camp (sorry Ninja guys) that appeared to be the Japanese equivalent to a Dude Ranch. It was crap. Run by Japanese but appeared to be for Westerners. They practiced making themselves invisible by holding up cloths, rolling in the dirt and jumping up into a sword cut. Catching swords, that kind of thing. One guy said he'd been attending for two week stints for ten years.
Good question!
I'm curious what specifically you mean by McDojo here, though. Do you mean a school that's mostly focused on making a lot of money, or a school that has poor standards (or the instructor is not qualified, teaches a made-up style, etc)? People everywhere want to make money, but I imagine the latter may be more of a problem in America than in the places where the styles are from.
Edit: But I know there are some people on here that could give us better answers!
I'm curious what specifically you mean by McDojo here, though. Do you mean a school that's mostly focused on making a lot of money, or a school that has poor standards (or the instructor is not qualified, teaches a made-up style, etc)? People everywhere want to make money, but I imagine the latter may be more of a problem in America than in the places where the styles are from.
Edit: But I know there are some people on here that could give us better answers!
That really is a good question.
I understand that the original reference was to McDonalds restaurant chain, which brings with it a whole raft of notions. World-wide, immensely successful, profitable, iconic, standardized... and also low-quality overall, drives local competitors under, etc.
So which do we mean when we call a Dojo a 'McDojo'?
I am of the opinion that there is nothing wrong with running a dojo for profit. It's a business, like any other, and those who invest their time and energy into building a business should be able to extract a living from it. However, the danger is that dojos run for profit run the risk of sacrificing quality.
One might say that you're not going to get a gourmet meal at McDonalds, but you will fill your belly and survive. Likewise, you may learn reasonable martial arts at a McDojo, but you may not get a fuller, deeper, understanding of the martial arts at one.
Now, maybe people who go to McDonalds go there because that's what they want and they get what they expect to get. But not all martial arts students may be aware that they may not be getting a 'McDonalds hamburger' at a McDojo. They may think they are getting a gourmet meal.
That, in my opinion, is a problem. No one is going to say "Hey, I am teaching a scaled-down, rudimentary form of martial arts here, but I'm trying to make a living. We are going to have fun, go to local tournaments, and learn some fancy kicks and spins and such, but we're not going to get into the deeper aspects of the art."
Just some 'food' for thought, so to speak.
- Thread Starter
- #6
My instructor described to me his experience with a McDojo chain and it was as follows: 7 year olds can get full 1st dans, His son got a full 2nd dan by the age of 12. What I mean by full is that 7 year olds are seen as actual black belts, not junior black belts. They help with testing and sit at the judges table etc. Fees for everything. He said he never actually saw his instructor do anything but tell lower ranks to teach him. Most of the time his 7th degree master instructor was in his office eating salad. No quality in instruction, like I said 12 year old assistant instructors teaching adults martial arts. Are there these kind of dojos in Asia?
No idea.
I have no idea, seems unlikely. But I imagine if there were, they'd probably be teaching affluent Americans.
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Some people have said that those type of schools were discussed in The Book of Five Rings. I haven't read the book so maybe someone can verify. My personal opinion is that there are always "snake oil salesmen" out there selling some mystical medicine so I don't say why martial arts schools would be safe from some scams. Chinese and Japanese ancient cultures included magic and all sorts of crazy stuff. It only seems natural that criminals would use martial arts schools rip people off.
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
There are plenty of Korean tkd schools that people would label as mcdojos. The first problem, as I see it, is that virtually no one sees their school as a mcdojo. It's always the school down the street (especially if they have more students than you). I don't believe more than a tiny number of people are intentionally "ripping off" their students, but everyone has a story about a crappy student transferring in from another school.
The second problem, again as I see it, is that too many people believe that profitable business model equals mcdojo. Schools with programs in place to retain students and add profit often get a bad rap. I can think of positive points for just about any programs schools use. Too often, martial arts is like politics: if you don't agree with me, you're wrong!
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The second problem, again as I see it, is that too many people believe that profitable business model equals mcdojo. Schools with programs in place to retain students and add profit often get a bad rap. I can think of positive points for just about any programs schools use. Too often, martial arts is like politics: if you don't agree with me, you're wrong!
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Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
What do trophies from competition have to do with being a mcdojo?
- Thread Starter
- #14
Yeah.... I don't get that reference either. McDojos for me , are school with lack of training and good instruction. Also fees that are unnecessary.
GiYu - Todd
Green Belt
I had one student leave our school when they realized how hard it was and how long it would take to get a black belt (4-5 years is pretty standard, with four 1.5 hour classes per week), and go to another dojo in town that will "guarantee" you a black belt in twelve months, only requiring two one-hour classes per week. Of course they have testing every couple weeks, with a $300/month membership, $100-200 test fee each test, and a special $1000 test fee for shodan... for a total of around $12,000. THAT school is a classic McDojo. (Of course, P.T. Barnum is probably smiling down at that school's ingenuity for making a buck).
donald1
Senior Master
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Personally ive always enjoyed mcdojos. They teach valuable lessons.
1. Techniques not to use
2. Consequences of using poor technique
3. Another reason to stay with your current dojo (if its a good one)
Ps. They make excellent sparring partners.(they make for great uke partners)
1. Techniques not to use
2. Consequences of using poor technique
3. Another reason to stay with your current dojo (if its a good one)
Ps. They make excellent sparring partners.(they make for great uke partners)
JR 137
Grandmaster
It seems more common here in the US than abroad, but unless someone has spent substantial time in a number of countries, there isn't really a definitive answer.
I think there's several reasons why McDojos exist...
1. Ignorance to what good instruction is. Without any experience in the MA and not shopping around/visiting multiple schools, it's easier to fall into this trap.
2. A lot of people aren't looking for a martial art in a true sense; they're looking for recreation. Group exercise, socializing, etc.; being able to say "I know x MA is icing on the cake.
3. Especially for kids, MA is usually recreation. Pick the school that's closest and most conducive schedule. Pick one that also has "Parents' night out," movie night, fun trips, after school program, etc. It's like a YMCA membership, only they're learning "Self Defense" and competing too.
4. The instant gratification society. If school A can get me to black belt in 1-2 years, they must have better teaching methods than school B that'll get me to black belt in 4-5 years. If you have no idea that they're watering down the curriculum, and think a black belt means the same thing everywhere you go, why would you take 5 years to accomplish the same thing that'll take you a year somewhere else? Wouldn't you rather a Bachelors degree in 1 year rather than 4?
Then there's target advertising. Send out fliers to schools in the area, offering discounts to kids at that school. Get parents who'd like their kids involved in something. Then their friends are going there, and your kid wants to go there too. Then there's a van that picks them up directly from school, has a homework area so the parents don't have to deal with that, and the kids are tired out by the time you pick them up on your way home from work. Add to that that they're becoming "bully proof" and learning "self discipline" "focus" and all the other catch-phrases, and they'll gladly fork over a couple hundred bucks a month. It's cheaper than daycare.
There's a place 2 blocks away from the school I teach at (academic school, not MA) that fits this mold perfectly. They're a big hit. This is great so long as the MA instruction is good. Their instruction is as horrible as their business methods are good. Most classes are taught by senior students are are about 15 years old or so.
I think there's several reasons why McDojos exist...
1. Ignorance to what good instruction is. Without any experience in the MA and not shopping around/visiting multiple schools, it's easier to fall into this trap.
2. A lot of people aren't looking for a martial art in a true sense; they're looking for recreation. Group exercise, socializing, etc.; being able to say "I know x MA is icing on the cake.
3. Especially for kids, MA is usually recreation. Pick the school that's closest and most conducive schedule. Pick one that also has "Parents' night out," movie night, fun trips, after school program, etc. It's like a YMCA membership, only they're learning "Self Defense" and competing too.
4. The instant gratification society. If school A can get me to black belt in 1-2 years, they must have better teaching methods than school B that'll get me to black belt in 4-5 years. If you have no idea that they're watering down the curriculum, and think a black belt means the same thing everywhere you go, why would you take 5 years to accomplish the same thing that'll take you a year somewhere else? Wouldn't you rather a Bachelors degree in 1 year rather than 4?
Then there's target advertising. Send out fliers to schools in the area, offering discounts to kids at that school. Get parents who'd like their kids involved in something. Then their friends are going there, and your kid wants to go there too. Then there's a van that picks them up directly from school, has a homework area so the parents don't have to deal with that, and the kids are tired out by the time you pick them up on your way home from work. Add to that that they're becoming "bully proof" and learning "self discipline" "focus" and all the other catch-phrases, and they'll gladly fork over a couple hundred bucks a month. It's cheaper than daycare.
There's a place 2 blocks away from the school I teach at (academic school, not MA) that fits this mold perfectly. They're a big hit. This is great so long as the MA instruction is good. Their instruction is as horrible as their business methods are good. Most classes are taught by senior students are are about 15 years old or so.
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To much focus on point fighting. Its not bad to receive or have a trophy, But if the school is lined with such awards, those who are more concerned with self defense. Should be careful. People definitely have different opinions on what mcdojos are and are not.
Jaeimseu
3rd Black Belt
I agree that lots of people make up their own definition for words. Anyway, why do trophies have to mean point fighting? There are many forms of competition.
Are all schools that don't have self-defense as the primary focus mcdojos?
lklawson
Grandmaster
Maybe I'm just in one of "those" moods, but why do I care about McDojos?
No one can seem to agree on what exactly one is any how.
Just teach good stuff and stop worrying about what other people are doing Gladys.
OK, I know I'm in one of "those" moods.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
No one can seem to agree on what exactly one is any how.
Just teach good stuff and stop worrying about what other people are doing Gladys.
OK, I know I'm in one of "those" moods.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
