The case for Judo as a self-defense system...

gpseymour

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Then you should have asked for confirmation. I can get you the volume and page number of the article in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts as one source for O'Neill's position. That would have continued this conversation along an entirely different path, which is the purpose of this board.
Quotes, in and of themselves aren't evidence. I've raised that point more than once. You posited some actual points that you suggested are problematic, and someone else raised the point that those same things exist in the training environment for SD systems, too.

What, really, is the problem with sport training transitioning to SD?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Once the Judo guy grabs you, his aim is to take your balance.
I'm not talking about after a clinch has been established. I'm talking about before that.

I don't believe without a special training, a Judo guy can deal with boxer's punch. If a Judo guy has never fought in boxing ring, how will he be able to develop that "anti-striking" skill?

The same question can also be asked about a boxer. If a boxer has never wrestled on the mat, how will he be able to develop his "resist for throwing" skill? What kind of boxer's training that can be used to deal with a take down?

I have spent the past many years in "anti-striking" strategy. I just like to know from a Judo guy point of view, what's his "anti-striking" strategy.
 
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Monkey Turned Wolf

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Kong Soo Do

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Quotes, in and of themselves aren't evidence.

I posted what O'Neill, the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in the world during his era stated in regards to Judo, it's effectiveness and it's exclusion from WWII combatives. That is factual, it is history. If someone wishes to disagree with his assessment 70+ years later, they are welcome to do so. In my opinion, he was and is correct.

What, really, is the problem with sport training transitioning to SD?

If the training is geared towards SD, nothing at all. The question, as I understood it, was sport Judo being effective for SD. In my opinion, it is not and is in fact detrimental. Can it be modified to be effective? Yes. Can the parameters be changed in the training methodology to give the student a higher % chance of success? Yes. But then it is NOT traditional Judo as it was designed to be by Kano. Judo was designed, on purpose, to be used in sport. Sport competitions, by there very nature, are artificial environments.

Can a sport Judoka get lucky on the street? Yes. Can they face someone that can be surprised and defeated? Yes. Is chance the best thing to bet your life on? No. Better to have a SD focused methodology right from the beginning to give you the highest % chance of success. That way if the perp is high, has friends or a weapon you will have at least trained for that possibility. Traditional Judo does NOT train for those possibilities.
 

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Guys at the end of the day....does it really matter? Judo guys will continue to train judo taekwondo guys will continue taekwondo. What's the point of this argument since it's gone beyond a discussion. Let's just all hug and move on now
 

jks9199

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Some friendly observations, because I really don't want to go unfriendly and start awarding points...

The Moderation Staff, especially Administrators, decide whether people,especially Moderators, are behaving appropriately. If you have concetns, use the Report function to let us know. Modetators have been firef, and tbe Board Founder even got suspended... We do strive to be fair.

When any Staff member participates in a thread, they do so as a fellow user, unless they are actively moderating, like, oh, offering a word or two to the wise. They do not participate in the moderation of a thread or backroom discussion about one in which they are involved, outside of extraordinary circumstances that require quick action.

So maybe we can drop the insults and shots all around and return to the discussion of Judo and self defense...

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk
 
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wab25

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I don't believe without a special training, a Judo guy can deal with boxer's punch.
The boxer was wearing brass knuckles inside his gloves and had been ranked as high as fourth in the world in his weight class.

Can he out box him? No. But it really comes down to who gets what they need first. The boxer needs to not only to hit the other guy, but knock him out. So, he has to maintain punching range until he gets the KO. Otherwise, he has to reestablish punching range and try again. Judo guy has to close distance. He may smother, block or slip the punch, follow the punch or take a punch to do so. Again, this comes down to the two fighters that day. I gave you a couple names to research. Another video was posted here. At the end of the day, they are all just single data points. Its down to the fighter and which one can take the other out of their comfort zone. There is no clear winner, which is why the classic MMA match is between a striker and a grappler. Lots of winners on either side.
 

drop bear

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I posted what O'Neill, the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in the world during his era stated in regards to Judo, it's effectiveness and it's exclusion from WWII combatives. That is factual, it is history. If someone wishes to disagree with his assessment 70+ years later, they are welcome to do so. In my opinion, he was and is correct.

When did he compete?And who did he beat? And under what rule set?

I mean we have guys like Dan Kelly who is an exceptional Judoka who has made very effective use of judo as a combative system.

Actually I would remove hip throws from military combatives but that is because it takes too long to be good at and you give your back up.
 

drop bear

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Guys at the end of the day....does it really matter? Judo guys will continue to train judo taekwondo guys will continue taekwondo. What's the point of this argument since it's gone beyond a discussion. Let's just all hug and move on now

Depends if you want a functional self defense system or a hobby.

A hobby us a personally satisfying pursuit but not all that effective if you wanted to win a fight.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Can he out box him? No. But it really comes down to who gets what they need first.
I agree with everything that you have said here. But my concern is in an average Judo school, the "anti-striking" training is not included.

The grip fight training is not the same as the anti-striking training.
 
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drop bear

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If the training is geared towards SD, nothing at all. The question, as I understood it, was sport Judo being effective for SD. In my opinion, it is not and is in fact detrimental. Can it be modified to be effective? Yes. Can the parameters be changed in the training methodology to give the student a higher % chance of success? Yes. But then it is NOT traditional Judo as it was designed to be by Kano. Judo was designed, on purpose, to be used in sport. Sport competitions, by there very nature, are artificial environments.

You are supposed to train self defense in an artificial environment.

There are a whole bunch of fight winning tools developed by that environment.

Warrior ethos is one tool that is championed by modern army combatives.
 

Kong Soo Do

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When did he compete?

During the 30's and 40's and possibly earlier. I don't recall offhand when he started.

And who did he beat?

IIRC, everyone he competed against. He was at least 5th Dan by the time of WWII which for that era was amazingly high for a non-Japanese. However, O'Neill is not remembered for his Judo skills but rather his time in WWII combatives and the FSSF. The movie, 'The Devil's Brigade' is loosely based on him in one of the characters.

And under what rule set?

Well, he and Fairbairn had their certs signed by Kano so I'm assuming the rule set he developed up to that era.

Actually I would remove hip throws from military combatives but that is because it takes too long to be good at and you give your back up.

This time may be the first time we have agreed on something. More to the point, doing some techniques, whether it is a throw, a take down or kick is different in traditional martial arts uniforms or even street clothes than in a full duty belt and body armor. These things must be taken into account as well as the knowledge that at least one firearm is present in every altercation...yours. Something traditional training, be it Judo or TKD or whatever does not address unless the instructor deviates from a traditional curriculum, which I would consider a good thing if the focus is on SD. If it's on sport, then such things don't matter.
 

Kong Soo Do

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I believe this is the guy he was referring to: America's deadliest Irishman - the Irish James Bond

Yes, that was O'Neill. When he taught knife defense he used an actual knife. He'd give a real blade to the student and told him to cut/stab him if they could. No one ever could. O'Neill, Fairbairn, Applegate, Sykes etc were a special breed. My grandfather received this training during WWII to compliment his ability as a golden glove boxer. It was brutal, but effective. And more importantly, retained in long term memory. I've touched on that here before.
 

Kong Soo Do

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You are supposed to train self defense in an artificial environment.

No. SD is trained on mats, on concrete, on grass, in an elevator, in a car, lying in bed, on stairs etc. Not in a environment where you are facing one, and only one unarmed opponent that has agreed to abide by a set of rules.
 

drop bear

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No. SD is trained on mats, on concrete, on grass, in an elevator, in a car, lying in bed, on stairs etc. Not in a environment where you are facing one, and only one unarmed opponent that has agreed to abide by a set of rules.

The bulk of self defense training really isnt if you wanted it to work. Because you are not really developing car self defense skills. When you could be training basic problem solving or even fitness.

These environmental concerns are 10% of the fight. But people will spend 90% of the time focused on them.

Where better basics trained in real time and in some sort of sensible manner will provide much more reward for effort.

And this is the same in sport as well. We all might want to know that super submission or the fight ending blow. But will be better fighters if we train positions or escapes.
 

drop bear

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Yes, that was O'Neill. When he taught knife defense he used an actual knife. He'd give a real blade to the student and told him to cut/stab him if they could. No one ever could. O'Neill, Fairbairn, Applegate, Sykes etc were a special breed. My grandfather received this training during WWII to compliment his ability as a golden glove boxer. It was brutal, but effective. And more importantly, retained in long term memory. I've touched on that here before.

Should have given a fake blade. People would have tried harder.
 

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You guys are still beating this up?

OK, well let me toss this in, then. The World War II Combatives didn't have judo in it, I suppose. However, I think the "modern" Army Combatives just might, along with a bunch of other really nifty-cool ways to end a fight in a hurry. I cite my own info to Command Sergeant Major Randy Leatherwood (retired), 6th Dan USJA, who is a really cool, but one bad-dude mo-fo, who won the Army Combatives tournament... though I don't think it's called a tournament? Anyway, he's won it twice. Main art, judo. Main technique to finish the majority of his bouts? Harai-goshi or a spinninging-entry uchimata. Randy is a big dude, coming in at 255-260 lbs, and his throws, especially for the combative competition, end up with his weight on his opponent, driving them into the mat.
 
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