Anti-grappling.

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Steve

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And? I'm not sure what you are getting at? I never said BJJ guys were not good at the guard I didn't know that was the question. And since To shin do isn't a grappling art I'm not shocked they are less invested in ground game.
I'd imagine if alot of styles ended up in the guard of an experienced BJJ or MMA fighter they would be in trouble. That's not their strong suit. That's why I train to not end up in the guard. That's also why even in the clip he said the technique wasn't the first choice perhaps they have other ways to pass the guard. I know a few ways none are like what Hayes shows but as I said My plan is to not end up there in the first place. That's probably a to shin do guys plan as well but since I don't train In it I really Don't know
Living here in Seattle, my plan is just to not have an earthquake. I know we're due a big one up here, and I also know that they suggest having an emergency kit with water, food, flashlight and other essentials in case there is one. But, my plan is to just not have an earthquake. Of course, if there is a bad earthquake, I'm screwed because my plan really isn't a plan.
Well I've seen other videos of highly respected Karate guys that have injuries that still put out tapes and books and fly all over the world doing seminars with bad body parts so......
The injury thing is ridiculous. I wish you'd just let that go. There's nothing to suggest that Stephen Hayes has a hidden disability in that video.

Regarding training to avoid the ground, that's been addressed several times and summarized by many different posters. The gist of it is that it can work very well, provided that the system was developed outside of a vacuum, at least in consultation with competent grapplers, and instructed by people who know what they're doing.

Going back to the Hayes video and others, the issue isn't that people are training specifically to counter BJJ or other ground fighting styles. Nor is there any problem with the idea that "the ground" isn't a good place to be in a fight. The disconnect is whether or not anti-grappling is a form of grappling. Most people believe that it is grappling, and so to be an effective anti-grappler, you really need some fundamental skills as a grappler. Avoiding the takedown, improving your position on the ground so that you can regain your feet, and protecting yourself while on the ground are all grappling skills. So, if you are a kung fu guy and just invent your own style, you're likely to come up with techniques like the Hayes sweep to a leg lock, that look good on paper, but won't actually work.

That's it. The grappling contingent here has shown some examples of wing chun guys who do seem to be teaching competent anti-grappling. The difference being that they actually consult with grapplers, and so their anti-grappling looks fundamentally different.
 

ballen0351

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Accusing me of fraud? Come on, ballen. That's low.
I didnt "accuse" you of anything. I said its the internet stranger things have happened.

But I'm not the only one drawing the same conclusion. I know you like to poke at certain people on the boards, myself included. But consider that when you imply that I'm a fraud and suggest that my "EXPERT claim" is equivalent to DonnaTKD's, you're also lumping in Brian VanCise, Tony Dismukes, Drop Bear, Hanzou, Punisher and the other people who share the same "expert" opinions based upon their similar, actual experience. Whether you think I'm actually a competent purple belt in BJJ or not, I still wonder why you refuse to accept the considered opinions of people who are more credible and well respected in this particular area. It doesn't make sense to me, particularly when you're more than happy to accept without question the opinions of people who admit to being as unfamiliar with the situations in question as you are.
Im not sure what you think I havent accepted? I agreed it wasnt the best technique. I said its not a FACT it could never work. If your expert opinion is its a fact it could never work well that is false. I dont lump anyone into any group didnt mean to hurt your feelings but I didnt realize it was Steves way or else (well I guess I did know Ive been here long enough). Very well sir You won the internets for the day Congrats Sir :wink2:
 

ballen0351

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Living here in Seattle, my plan is just to not have an earthquake. I know we're due a big one up here, and I also know that they suggest having an emergency kit with water, food, flashlight and other essentials in case there is one. But, my plan is to just not have an earthquake. Of course, if there is a bad earthquake, I'm screwed because my plan really isn't a plan.
Well Ive made it this far in life with never ending up in the guard so.......I also never said I couldnt get out I do dabble in BJJ and Judo. The simple fact is I plan on avoiding any physical confrontation period. Its not hard to do. I havent been in a fight since I got out of the military other then at work.
The injury thing is ridiculous. I wish you'd just let that go. There's nothing to suggest that Stephen Hayes has a hidden disability in that video.
Never said he was injured I said you dont know the whole story from a 3 min clip. You let it go if you want you brought it up again
Regarding training to avoid the ground, that's been addressed several times and summarized by many different posters.
right more internet experts got it.
The gist of it is that it can work very well, provided that the system was developed outside of a vacuum, at least in consultation with competent grapplers, and instructed by people who know what they're doing.
ok
Going back to the Hayes video and others, the issue isn't that people are training specifically to counter BJJ or other ground fighting styles. Nor is there any problem with the idea that "the ground" isn't a good place to be in a fight. The disconnect is whether or not anti-grappling is a form of grappling. Most people believe that it is grappling, and so to be an effective anti-grappler, you really need some fundamental skills as a grappler. Avoiding the takedown, improving your position on the ground so that you can regain your feet, and protecting yourself while on the ground are all grappling skills. So, if you are a kung fu guy and just invent your own style, you're likely to come up with techniques like the Hayes sweep to a leg lock, that look good on paper, but won't actually work.
ok
That's it. The grappling contingent here has shown some examples of wing chun guys who do seem to be teaching competent anti-grappling. The difference being that they actually consult with grapplers, and so their anti-grappling looks fundamentally different.
ok

Ive never said anything different. Hanzo came in making reckless comments about a man and his style. At first he refused to provide any technical reasons just that he and his teacher had a good laugh at his expense. Then said his opinion is a FACT. Thats nonsense. I found his comments distasteful and rude so I told him. Then we had a conversation (which is what we do on a forum) about the techniqe between several grapplers about the technique which I dont disagree with. Even still its not a FACT it could never work.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Yeah, no need to waste more pixels on the "fact" vs "opinion" sidetrack as far as I'm concerned.

Just about everything we say here is an opinion. Some opinions are better informed than others. Some folks feel comfortable labeling very well-founded opinions as facts, others do not. I don't care that much either way.

As far as whether a technique "could never work" or not - it's really a matter of percentages. No technique works all the time. Every technique can conceivably work given the right circumstances. A really, really good technique might work 70% of the time in a broad range of scenarios. A really, really bad technique might only work under very limited circumstances and even then have a 5% chance of improving your situation and a 50% chance of worsening your situation. Most techniques fall in-between those extremes. You can argue about whether or not it's sensible to say those really bad techniques could never work, but I don't think it's worth getting heated up over.
 

Steve

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Well Ive made it this far in life with never ending up in the guard so.......I also never said I couldnt get out I do dabble in BJJ and Judo. The simple fact is I plan on avoiding any physical confrontation period. Its not hard to do. I havent been in a fight since I got out of the military other then at work.

Never said he was injured I said you dont know the whole story from a 3 min clip. You let it go if you want you brought it up again

right more internet experts got it.

ok

ok

ok

Ive never said anything different. Hanzo came in making reckless comments about a man and his style. At first he refused to provide any technical reasons just that he and his teacher had a good laugh at his expense. Then said his opinion is a FACT. Thats nonsense. I found his comments distasteful and rude so I told him. Then we had a conversation (which is what we do on a forum) about the techniqe between several grapplers about the technique which I dont disagree with. Even still its not a FACT it could never work.

It's funny to me that on one hand you say you agree with me, but on the other suggest I'm a fraud and can't manage to avoid childish insults. It's not "Steve's" way. It's bio mechanics and a basic understanding of the position. Heck, you just said you agree with me, yourself.

My feelings aren't hurt. I just genuinely don't understand you. You contradict yourself from one sentence to the next, you agree with me, but then insult me. You acknowledge that I'm right and then tell me I'm a fraud. You say you never disagreed with me, and then tell me I'm still wrong.

It's not hurt feelings. It's confusion.

For what it's worth, that the technique is fatally flawed. If someone could make that technique work, it would be in spite of the technique, and not because of it.

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Tony Dismukes

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... on the other suggest I'm a fraud ...

I don't think that ballen0351 is seriously pushing the idea that you (or I or any of us) is particularly likely to be a fraud. I think he's just pointing out that this is the internet and for all he knows, we're all dogs.

Personally, I have a certain degree of confidence in my ability to guess whether particular posters here are as knowledgeable as they say they are. It's an educated guess - but it's still just a guess. The farther the style being discussed gets from my experience, the less educated my guesses get. If we had a bunch of Choy Li Fut practitioners arguing over some esoteric aspect of CMA, I wouldn't necessarily know whether or not I could accept all their claims of being experts on the subject.
 

ballen0351

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It's funny to me that on one hand you say you agree with me, but on the other suggest I'm a fraud and can't manage to avoid childish insults. It's not "Steve's" way. It's bio mechanics and a basic understanding of the position. Heck, you just said you agree with me, yourself.

My feelings aren't hurt. I just genuinely don't understand you. You contradict yourself from one sentence to the next, you agree with me, but then insult me. You acknowledge that I'm right and then tell me I'm a fraud. You say you never disagreed with me, and then tell me I'm still wrong.

It's not hurt feelings. It's confusion.

For what it's worth, that the technique is fatally flawed. If someone could make that technique work, it would be in spite of the technique, and not because of it.

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I never called anyone a fraud I said it's the internet for all you know I'm a 12 year old girl or a 89 year old man. So when someone makes claims of any "expertise" I don't give it the same standing I would. If I personally knew you. Not saying your a fraud I just view internet forums with a grain of salt. It's not that bad here but other forums I frequent like Officer.com have a high number of wanna be posters. Some are good some are not. I believed Donna for example for a while she or he fooled me. If you take that as me calling you a fraud I apologize. It wansnt the case.
 

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Ive never said anything different. Hanzo came in making reckless comments about a man and his style.

Absolutely false. I said nothing disparaging about Hayes or Toshindo in general.

At first he refused to provide any technical reasons just that he and his teacher had a good laugh at his expense.

Also false. Immediately after posting the initial video, I posted a video critique from Bujinkan exponents who understand ground fighting.

Then said his opinion is a FACT. Thats nonsense. I found his comments distasteful and rude so I told him. Then we had a conversation (which is what we do on a forum) about the techniqe between several grapplers about the technique which I dont disagree with. Even still its not a FACT it could never work.

Like I said, the only way that would work on its intended target is if the person placing you in guard is literally asleep, or purposely letting you lean back so that they can mount and pound you.
 

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You must have misunderstood Ive never said the guard was part of the Toshindo system. I have no idea what is in their system since before this thread I never even knew it existed. I said I assume what hayes is teaching the escape is part of his system since he invented the system

No, you asked how did I know that the Guard wasn't in Toshindo. That was a response to an earlier post where you said that since none of us do Toshindo, we have no right to question Hayes' technique. Please get your story right. :)

If you say so. I have all of that in Goju but I dont consider it a grappling art its an art that has grappling in it.

Goju has ground fighting? Since when?

Again if you say so. I dont know anthing about Toshindo other then a 3 min youtube clip so If you know more about the goals of To shin do very well then.

I don't need to know the goals of Toshindo to know that the goal of the technique in that video is to counter the Guard.

I didnt say he was I said sometimes things are not what they appear.

This is not one of those times.
 

ballen0351

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No, you asked how did I know that the Guard wasn't in Toshindo. That was a response to an earlier post where you said that since none of us do Toshindo, we have no right to question Hayes' technique. Please get your story right. :)
You may need to brush up on your reading comprehension
Goju has ground fighting? Since when?
Umm since it's inception.
I don't need to know the goals of Toshindo to know that the goal of the technique in that video is to counter the Guard.



This is not one of those times.
Nonsense
 

Hanzou

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You may need to brush up on your reading comprehension

Um no. Simply go back and read through your own responses. I agree that they are a convoluted mess, but you did write them, so you should be able to understand them.

Umm since it's inception.

Let me guess; Hidden in the kata right? :rolleyes:


So you're continuing to run with your ridiculous and baseless theory that Hayes was somehow disabled or injured during that video?
 

ballen0351

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Absolutely false. I said nothing disparaging about Hayes or Toshindo in general.
umm ok
sure your technique is sound before you publish a video about it and make yourself (and your art) look silly.

Why shouldn't we criticize, find fault, and belittle that which deserves those things
Toshindo isn't going to change that technique because of criticism,....We're way passed that point now, so all we can do now is point out how wrong it is.
here was a shot at Dillman
You must be a big fan of George Dillman. :lol:
So we tried the Toshindo technique in class today, and its actually worse than I anticipated it to be.
I showed the video to my instructor (a three stripe black belt), and he said it was literally one of the worst guard pass attempts he's ever seen.
We had a pretty good laugh about the whole thing. :)
It even got the Martial Fail of the week;
there was far more in Hayes' video that was laughable or flawed besides the actual technique. The stupid and pointless knee to the buttocks
here you even admited it
which is why I "bagged" on Hayes. There's no reason to create a half-baked technique


There's no reason to embarrass yourself and your style

unfortunately makes people question his entire system of Martial Arts


I can keep going but you get the idea.
 

Hanzou

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Let's run through this step by step so there's no more confusion;

sure your technique is sound before you publish a video about it and make yourself (and your art) look silly.
The technique isn't sound. That has been established. Hayes and Toshindo was made to look silly because said technique wasn't sound, and it threw into question other aspects of Toshindo instruction.

Imagine if the opposite occurred? Imagine if Hayes popped up with an effective, flashy, high percentage move against the staple of several grappling styles? The opinion of Toshindo and Ninjutsu in general would be greatly improved.

Why shouldn't we criticize, find fault, and belittle that which deserves those things
Yes, why shouldn't we? Dillman popped up with a ridiculous Chi knockout technique that was utter and complete nonsense. He was criticized, belittled, and his stature in the MA community was greatly diminished.


Frankly he deserved every bit of it.

I can keep going but you get the idea.

I get the idea that you're being over-emotional and highly defensive for no valid reason.

Prime example:

So now your going to bash Goju next huh

Ah yes, pointing out that its hidden within kata is "bashing" Goju-Ryu.:sadsong:
 
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geezer

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...here was a shot at Dillman

People say Dillman started out as "the real thing", but with some of the questionable stuff he later promoted like the "no touch knockout" I'd say he has only himself to blame for the critism he gets. It's not style bashing to express disapproval of people who make outrageous claims or promote impractical techniques. As long as it's a debate about technique and not a personal attack, I don't see the problem.

Besides, we can't be so "thin-skinned" people. I may see Hayes as a medeocre martial artist who is more about self promotion and marketing than anything. Others have said the similar stuff about my old Chinese sifu. Sometimes they were right. Not about his being mediocre, but about his shameless self-promotion. So what? People have a right to their opinions as long as they don't cross the line into character assasination.

Regarding Dillman:
The videoclip really needs no further comment.

Edit: Dang, While I was digging this up Hanzou beat me to it. I really have to get faster on the "submit" key!
 
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ballen0351

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People say Dillman started out as "the real thing", but with some of the questionable stuff he later promoted like the "no touch knockout" I'd say he has only himself to blame for the critism he gets. It's not style bashing to express disapproval of people who make outrageous claims or promote impractical techniques. As long as it's a debate about technique and not a personal attack, I don't see the problem.

Besides, we can't be so "thin-skinned" people. I may see Hayes as a medeocre martial artist who is more about self promotion and marketing than anything. Others have said the similar stuff about my old Chinese sifu. Sometimes they were right. Not about his being mediocre, but about his hameless self-promotion. So what? People have a right to their opinions as long as they don't cross the line into character assasination.

Regarding Dillman:
The videoclip really needs no further comment.

Edit: Dang, While I was digging this up Hanzou beat me to it. I really have to get faster on the "submit" key!
doesnt matter this isnt bullshido and style bashing and fraud busting wasnt allowed but maybe it is now I dont know Ive been gone for a few months coaching and started college so perhaps it is now
 
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Tony Dismukes

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Yeah, Dillman may have been a talented martial artist in his prime, but at some point he wandered into territory which is either self-delusion or conscious fraud. I'm all for giving people the benefit of the doubt and I respect ballen0351's insistence on doing so. Nevertheless there comes a point where there is no more doubt to give someone the benefit of.

Edit - I'm not bashing whatever style of karate that Dillman practices. For all I know it's a great system. I'm not even saying that he is necessarily a conscious fraud. I've seen several cases where an instructor and students apparently came to honestly believe that they possessed magical powers through some sort of suggestibility feedback loop. Maybe this is one of those cases. The fact remains that they don't have magical powers.
 
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