Competition Judo and Sport Jiu-jitsu is not self defense!

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Freestyler777

Freestyler777

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You're right that i shouldn't overthink. That is my problem.

And there are some throws that work for SD, like osoto gari, which is used by cops all the time, so it must be effective.

TNT is right in that these sports wouldn't have so much time, money, effort, and people involved if they had no merit.

However, I started this post merely as a reaction to the guys on judoforum.com, who think BJJ and MMA is like mana from the sky, or some miracle, when it is not the gold-standard of self-defense like they think it is. BJJ and MMA is a fine derivative of judo, but it is not all there is to MA or SD. I don't mean to badmouth a forum I've used for so long, but it was getting kind of crazy.

This website has more civilized, open-minded people than that other forum.
 

Danny T

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Well I’ve got to agree with you on your assessment of your training of Judo not being Self-defense. Sports are games and those who train and play the game are players.

That stated however, I would ask that you assess whether your training in Judo has given you the attributes to be able to defend yourself with some modifications of your usage of movements and positions within judo if need be. Have you trained yourself in a manner that you can defend yourself? The system can not defend you nor can any other system of training defend you. You must be the defender and can use any of several different means to train your mind and body to utilize the movements and positions in a defensive manner.

Just a few thought provoking questions. Hasn’t your training in judo strengthened your body and increased your ability to feel what is happening to you and to move or shift your center of gravity so as not to be taken down or overpowered? Hasn’t your training also given you the ability to recognize another’s movements so as to give you an advantage as to what they are planning to do? Judo doesn’t have a striking aspect but one can certainly work striking into one’s training. It would no long be just judo but your judo training could be keep separate and if one were confronted in a physical self-defense scenario one would have the tools and ability to utilize them.

Sport training isn’t self-defense, I agree, but someone with an open mind and a bit of additional training can and will very quickly cross the divide and utilize their sport training in a fight type self-defense action.

Danny T
 
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Freestyler777

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You know, you have many valid points. While an uchimata might not be the best SD, the training in live randori does 1: increase fitness and strength 2: increase confidence with 'winning' 3: create a competitive mind-frame that i would imagine would carry over well to SD.

So even if you punch someone, you are still 'using your judo' in that the training in sportfighting itself got you to the point where you are confident enough to defend yourself with whatever technique is appropriate and spontaneous.

Thank you Danny
 

zDom

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As a sport judo player looking for self defense aspects, off the top of my head you would need to consider a couple things:

On the DEFENSIVE side, you would need to keep in mind that while SOME attackers may try to grab you or your clothes, very many will be trying to strike — something that you don't have to look out for during competition.

You may want to keep in mind likely grabs — such as football tackle/shoot (awful lot of UFC fans out there who might emulate what they see on TV!), maybe even a clinch attempt. Perhaps a bear hug situation from behind. Maybe even (given the UFC craze) someone trying a rear naked choke.

Offensively, unless you live in a colder climate where thick coats are often worn, you aren't going to have the "handles" that you usually enjoy in competition.

Something like Koshi Guruma, I think, is going to come in real handy. Perhaps Kata Guruma could work for you if they are going for wild swings at your head.

I would think your average attacker is going to be MUCH easier to throw as they are much more likely to end up off-balance than your judo opponents. You guys are used to working against people who are very careful about not allowing themselves to be offbalanced, so you might just be able to throw right off the bat against someone with no experience in randori (while we hapkido folk generally rely on a strike to set up our throws)

And, the bonus: chances are

a) this is NOT going to be happening on a mat or some other forgiving surface for them to land on

and b) chances are, an attacker is NOT going to have any breakfalling experience.

That means a throw you would hop right up after may put them out of the fight.

It also means be careful with something like Osoto Gari as you might explode their head like a melon if on a concrete or other hard surface!
 

Darth F.Takeda

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Freestyle,

After reading your profile, you have several arts listed, but I want to ask you 1. How much time do you have in the fighting arts? (And I will include your wrestling in that for sure.)
2. Have you ever been in a serious street fight? Not a shoving match but a situation where you could have been killed, maimed or violated?
3. Have you ever seen such a situation from the outside?

Bro, throws can work, grappling can work, kicks can work and they can all fail too. I even used what is considerd a totally Dojang technique in a fight, successfully, the jumping side kick (assisted by using a truck's tailgate to vault off of with my hand.

The fact that tossing people, flanking and choking as well as forcing them to the ground and pounding on them them seemed to work better for me in fights than punching and kicking is why I gravitated to Jujutsu from TKD/Karate. It comes down to your attributes, some should be geared more towards strikes, others more towards "grappling" but even so you need a little of the other side. IMO and IME.
 

howard

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...I would ask that you assess whether your training in Judo has given you the attributes to be able to defend yourself with some modifications of your usage of movements and positions within judo if need be. Have you trained yourself in a manner that you can defend yourself?
That's a very good point to be considered.

IMO we should bear in mid that Judo's throws come from Jujutsu. Kano removed the joint locks and strikes that were in the original Jujutsu techniques to make the techniques safe for competition and general physical training. Add back those original locks / breaks and atemi, and your Judo techniques become much better suited for self defense.
 
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Freestyler777

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I have about three years of shootfighting, two years of judo, some boxing and wrestling, and now I train with Soca BJJ exclusively.

I've never been in a real, meaning serious, fight. That is why I blab all day and all night on these forums (no offense to anyone else).

I'm trying to gather empirical evidence, without bothering to actually fight someone.

And I have seen fights, but not really serious ones were there was ground n pound and other ghouling behaviors.

However, I have lots of mat experience.

But you are right, I am training in BJJ now and enjoying it very much. I shouldn't have made this post, because I am a dork.
 

TjThunder

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just throwing my two cents onto the tatami...
From what I know of Judo (which isn't a lot) is that it is an excellent art/sport for stand up grappling, throws and takedowns, as well as including a good measure of ne waza in case the situation goes to the ground. Regardless of some of the sporting aspects which may or may not detract from the SD aspect of Judo those aforementioned skills, which Judo develops, can be an asset in SD situations. Judo can help you get a grip on an attacker off balance them, throw them or choke them/break something if need be. One of my friends recently got a job as a doorman(he has previous wrestling experience) and he personally found Judo to be the most effecient art for his job, because it covers restraining holds and throws from the stand up position as well as ground work(if the fight unfortunately goes there in his case). He loves it and finds training in it extremely invaluable. I've had to hear so much about it I have been thinking of taking it up. This of course is just IMO, but from what I've seen Judo develops many skills translatable to SD.
 

TjThunder

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also the sporting aspect of judo helps the practitioner train with "aliveness", testing their skills against a fully resisting opponent.
 

Phoenix44

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Well, as someone pointed out earlier, "self-defense" is very different for a woman, where a grab, hold, or floor situation is much more likely than a punch or kick In these situations, jujutsu-type locks, holds, and throws might be much more applicable than punching.
 

Darth F.Takeda

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Frestyle,

I was not trying to cut you down, I just wanted to be able to reference what you are saying.

Lot's of judoka's have done well in self defense situations, BJJ is largly sport Jujutsu, but plenty of people in it have also done well in the "skreet".

Lot's of arts work, but it takes people to make them work.

Sure I do beleive some arts tend to be more effective than others, for certian situations and enviroments. I would not bet on a BJJ player in a knife fight against a FMA'ist, as I would not bet on the FMA'ist on the ground. But the individual facotr can come up and change everything.
 

TjThunder

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Frestyle,

I was not trying to cut you down, I just wanted to be able to reference what you are saying.

Lot's of judoka's have done well in self defense situations, BJJ is largly sport Jujutsu, but plenty of people in it have also done well in the "skreet".

Lot's of arts work, but it takes people to make them work.

Sure I do beleive some arts tend to be more effective than others, for certian situations and enviroments. I would not bet on a BJJ player in a knife fight against a FMA'ist, as I would not bet on the FMA'ist on the ground. But the individual facotr can come up and change everything.

very well said !!!!
 

Guardian

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You're right that i shouldn't overthink. That is my problem.

And there are some throws that work for SD, like osoto gari, which is used by cops all the time, so it must be effective.

TNT is right in that these sports wouldn't have so much time, money, effort, and people involved if they had no merit.

However, I started this post merely as a reaction to the guys on judoforum.com, who think BJJ and MMA is like mana from the sky, or some miracle, when it is not the gold-standard of self-defense like they think it is. BJJ and MMA is a fine derivative of judo, but it is not all there is to MA or SD. I don't mean to badmouth a forum I've used for so long, but it was getting kind of crazy.

This website has more civilized, open-minded people than that other forum.

Exactly Freestyler, some think that the system/style they train in is all that. Those like yourself and others who have been around awhile know that no one system/style is the one.

I see where you were coming from with your comments, you have seen the comments from others and revised your position alittle from the first statements, I respect that alot and thank you for it.

I concur with the others that commented here, that certain aspects of those styles mentioned are applicable for SDs as my H2H training will attest to, while also concurring with you that those styles alone in my view would not be the ultimate SD/MA, those that claim they are are missing the bigger picture and hopefully will not get hurt if they should ever have to test their theories.
 
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