The case for Judo as a self-defense system...

TMA17

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I normally don't like posting these types of things, but sometimes it's fun LOL. I thought this guy made a good case for Judo over BJJ. Both are great and both emphasize different things.

"As far as BJJ vs. Judo i'll have to side with judo from my experiences, but i am not saying bjj is useless by any means.
My background is wrestling, judo and only currently about 3 years of bjj. In all the fights i've been in, wrestling and judo have been a better foundation for several reasons outside of dirty street tactics:

1. Balance. Not being able to be thrown off balance or taken down has helped me monumentally as a 60-65kg individual. You can't punch or do anything when you are off balance.

2. Understanding how to control limbs via grips like in judo or meat hooking like in wrestling. Since most people only throw wild rights, it's very easy to collar elbow tie a guy and not be in danger and adjust accordingly after, spin behind, snap downs and so forth.

3. Being able to take the larger person down if you have to, is better suited for judo/wrestling by being able to consistently end up on top, thus controlling and effectively managing damage. Most bjj players can't take people down for beans and this can prove very problematic as the nature of bjj is not focused on take downs enough. I've seen many bjj players end up on their back from drunkards and idiots, though they do get swept most often provided nobody is interfering (ideal scenario).

4. A high velocity take down has, for a number of times, ended fights for me since they generally incapacitate people or cause them to go into panic/turtling. You almost always also, end up in a very dominant position thereafter.

5. The scrappy nature and fast pace of judo and wrestling make for more realistic combat scenarios as said earlier. Your reaction timing is paramount, and bjj is typically too slow to match this.

6. In the event you are thrown/taken off balance, you are more used to this occurrence from hours of take downs and having the wind knocked out of you and can deal with this pressure better and reversing to come out on top (sit outs, switches, hip heists etc). The nature of these two sports is heavily focused on "play for broke" since if you end up in a bad situation, you don't have time to escape, you need to act now.

7. Judo makes throwing larger opponents easier when you understand what throws to use when. I won't uchi mata someone who is 6 foot 200 pounds, that is not likely to work. I may use tani otoshi if i'm caught in a headlock, a single leg, ko-uchi/o-uchi, de-ashi harai. Someone closer to my size, i may back arching throw, uchi mata, then.

With all this being said, these still don't account for the intangibles you may encounter. A kick to the kneecap can stop anyone, being hit in the throat hard, eye gouged, nut shotted repeatedly while being punched in the jaw, punched in the back of the neck where it meets the skull etc, will force different reactions from anyone. Most of these can't be trained for, they need to be reacted with. Best bet is to avoid fighting at all costs if you can.

Cliffs: I feel judo is better based off my experiences, BJJ will work no doubt, as can many other arts."
 

jobo

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I normally don't like posting these types of things, but sometimes it's fun LOL. I thought this guy made a good case for Judo over BJJ. Both are great and both emphasize different things.

"As far as BJJ vs. Judo i'll have to side with judo from my experiences, but i am not saying bjj is useless by any means.
My background is wrestling, judo and only currently about 3 years of bjj. In all the fights i've been in, wrestling and judo have been a better foundation for several reasons outside of dirty street tactics:

1. Balance. Not being able to be thrown off balance or taken down has helped me monumentally as a 60-65kg individual. You can't punch or do anything when you are off balance.

2. Understanding how to control limbs via grips like in judo or meat hooking like in wrestling. Since most people only throw wild rights, it's very easy to collar elbow tie a guy and not be in danger and adjust accordingly after, spin behind, snap downs and so forth.

3. Being able to take the larger person down if you have to, is better suited for judo/wrestling by being able to consistently end up on top, thus controlling and effectively managing damage. Most bjj players can't take people down for beans and this can prove very problematic as the nature of bjj is not focused on take downs enough. I've seen many bjj players end up on their back from drunkards and idiots, though they do get swept most often provided nobody is interfering (ideal scenario).

4. A high velocity take down has, for a number of times, ended fights for me since they generally incapacitate people or cause them to go into panic/turtling. You almost always also, end up in a very dominant position thereafter.

5. The scrappy nature and fast pace of judo and wrestling make for more realistic combat scenarios as said earlier. Your reaction timing is paramount, and bjj is typically too slow to match this.

6. In the event you are thrown/taken off balance, you are more used to this occurrence from hours of take downs and having the wind knocked out of you and can deal with this pressure better and reversing to come out on top (sit outs, switches, hip heists etc). The nature of these two sports is heavily focused on "play for broke" since if you end up in a bad situation, you don't have time to escape, you need to act now.

7. Judo makes throwing larger opponents easier when you understand what throws to use when. I won't uchi mata someone who is 6 foot 200 pounds, that is not likely to work. I may use tani otoshi if i'm caught in a headlock, a single leg, ko-uchi/o-uchi, de-ashi harai. Someone closer to my size, i may back arching throw, uchi mata, then.

With all this being said, these still don't account for the intangibles you may encounter. A kick to the kneecap can stop anyone, being hit in the throat hard, eye gouged, nut shotted repeatedly while being punched in the jaw, punched in the back of the neck where it meets the skull etc, will force different reactions from anyone. Most of these can't be trained for, they need to be reacted with. Best bet is to avoid fighting at all costs if you can.

Cliffs: I feel judo is better based off my experiences, BJJ will work no doubt, as can many other arts."
I would tend to agree, judo is a very effective self defence system, of course how effective it for an individual is dependent on that individual. but generally if assessing an art for self defence, you need to look at the l2vel of fitness that's required and fully resistant opponents, and judo score very high on both
 

JR 137

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Most things can be very good for self defense. It all depends on how you train it, how well you understand it, and how well you can adapt it on the fly for the situation you’re under.

IMO the biggest thing is mental toughness. Being able to take a hit and keep going. Not getting scared to the point of forgetting everything you’ve been taught. When the adrenaline really starts flowing, many people forget everything and resort of primitive instincts like throwing haymakers and turning away from stuff coming at them. It’s a lot like when people first start sparring in striking how they back straight up into the wall and are turning away, almost into a standing fetal position.
 

Buka

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I normally don't like posting these types of things, but sometimes it's fun LOL. I thought this guy made a good case for Judo over BJJ. Both are great and both emphasize different things.

"As far as BJJ vs. Judo i'll have to side with judo from my experiences, but i am not saying bjj is useless by any means.
My background is wrestling, judo and only currently about 3 years of bjj. In all the fights i've been in, wrestling and judo have been a better foundation for several reasons outside of dirty street tactics:

1. Balance. Not being able to be thrown off balance or taken down has helped me monumentally as a 60-65kg individual. You can't punch or do anything when you are off balance.

2. Understanding how to control limbs via grips like in judo or meat hooking like in wrestling. Since most people only throw wild rights, it's very easy to collar elbow tie a guy and not be in danger and adjust accordingly after, spin behind, snap downs and so forth.

3. Being able to take the larger person down if you have to, is better suited for judo/wrestling by being able to consistently end up on top, thus controlling and effectively managing damage. Most bjj players can't take people down for beans and this can prove very problematic as the nature of bjj is not focused on take downs enough. I've seen many bjj players end up on their back from drunkards and idiots, though they do get swept most often provided nobody is interfering (ideal scenario).

4. A high velocity take down has, for a number of times, ended fights for me since they generally incapacitate people or cause them to go into panic/turtling. You almost always also, end up in a very dominant position thereafter.

5. The scrappy nature and fast pace of judo and wrestling make for more realistic combat scenarios as said earlier. Your reaction timing is paramount, and bjj is typically too slow to match this.

6. In the event you are thrown/taken off balance, you are more used to this occurrence from hours of take downs and having the wind knocked out of you and can deal with this pressure better and reversing to come out on top (sit outs, switches, hip heists etc). The nature of these two sports is heavily focused on "play for broke" since if you end up in a bad situation, you don't have time to escape, you need to act now.

7. Judo makes throwing larger opponents easier when you understand what throws to use when. I won't uchi mata someone who is 6 foot 200 pounds, that is not likely to work. I may use tani otoshi if i'm caught in a headlock, a single leg, ko-uchi/o-uchi, de-ashi harai. Someone closer to my size, i may back arching throw, uchi mata, then.

With all this being said, these still don't account for the intangibles you may encounter. A kick to the kneecap can stop anyone, being hit in the throat hard, eye gouged, nut shotted repeatedly while being punched in the jaw, punched in the back of the neck where it meets the skull etc, will force different reactions from anyone. Most of these can't be trained for, they need to be reacted with. Best bet is to avoid fighting at all costs if you can.

Cliffs: I feel judo is better based off my experiences, BJJ will work no doubt, as can many other arts."

Who is "this guy"?
 
OP
T

TMA17

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Great points.

He wasn’t anybody of significance. Some random comment on Reddit.
 

JP3

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Since I started doing judo in '95, after about a year of it (after about 15 years of TKD/HKD then 5 years of Muay Thai at that point) I generated much the same opinion of judo as an excellent SD system as the copied info/statements in the O/P.

I think that, much as was mentioned above, judo's main advantage as a SD "system" is how it is regularly taught & trained. Almost every single class you, as a student or instructor (little difference in a good judo class as to who's doing what) end up doing at least a few minutes of freework naewaza (groundwork, rolling, call it whatever you want). Lots of the time it's full power, so that people can start learning right away that it really is Not about how strong you are, though strength is a nice tool to have in the kit. AND you also do at least a few minutes of randori, in which you can amp it down or up as the two individuals want... younger guys almost always are going at it hard and fast, the older folks are going slower and smooth. But, every single day there's an aspect of free practice to bring the random nature of the universe into play... and it regularly gets going what I call full-tilt bozo, so you rapidly get used to that, too.

In a punch-kick school, at least in my few years at it... very, very rarely did you Really go at it with 100% power & speed, because someone almost always got hurt. In judo, I'd say about 70% of the classes I was in, at least at some point we were going full-tilt in some regard. It is both a body conditioning, and mind-conditioning thing. When de caca strikes de ventilateur… you've already been there and done that and you don't need to "adapt," as that learning has already taken place, back on the mat.

And... really... if you've got a good block and entry into a hip throw... most of the time that fight's going to be over. Still, judo's got weaknesses, just like everything else... if the judoka can't close, he'she is not going to have any success and will probably leave with some inflamed and/or bruised parts. It's a thing.

Still, I like it as a fundamental, basic SD system.
 
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TMA17

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Since I started doing judo in '95, after about a year of it (after about 15 years of TKD/HKD then 5 years of Muay Thai at that point) I generated much the same opinion of judo as an excellent SD system as the copied info/statements in the O/P.

I think that, much as was mentioned above, judo's main advantage as a SD "system" is how it is regularly taught & trained. Almost every single class you, as a student or instructor (little difference in a good judo class as to who's doing what) end up doing at least a few minutes of freework naewaza (groundwork, rolling, call it whatever you want). Lots of the time it's full power, so that people can start learning right away that it really is Not about how strong you are, though strength is a nice tool to have in the kit. AND you also do at least a few minutes of randori, in which you can amp it down or up as the two individuals want... younger guys almost always are going at it hard and fast, the older folks are going slower and smooth. But, every single day there's an aspect of free practice to bring the random nature of the universe into play... and it regularly gets going what I call full-tilt bozo, so you rapidly get used to that, too.

In a punch-kick school, at least in my few years at it... very, very rarely did you Really go at it with 100% power & speed, because someone almost always got hurt. In judo, I'd say about 70% of the classes I was in, at least at some point we were going full-tilt in some regard. It is both a body conditioning, and mind-conditioning thing. When de caca strikes de ventilateur… you've already been there and done that and you don't need to "adapt," as that learning has already taken place, back on the mat.

And... really... if you've got a good block and entry into a hip throw... most of the time that fight's going to be over. Still, judo's got weaknesses, just like everything else... if the judoka can't close, he'she is not going to have any success and will probably leave with some inflamed and/or bruised parts. It's a thing.

Still, I like it as a fundamental, basic SD system.

I really enjoy Judo for those reasons. It's a great workout . BJJ would be second, but it's slower paced and very technical to me. As you mentioned, with striking you're never going 100% and even at 50%, that's too much. I've got hit the head a few times. It's not good for the brain. The intensity of Judo is what I like. And you develop strong gripping.
 
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Seems like a fair enough assessment, judo does focus on the standup which is more useful to more people most of the time. How ever is there any difference in break falls or the extent they are practiced? I keep forgetting if BJJ does that or not.
 

gpseymour

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I normally don't like posting these types of things, but sometimes it's fun LOL. I thought this guy made a good case for Judo over BJJ. Both are great and both emphasize different things.

"As far as BJJ vs. Judo i'll have to side with judo from my experiences, but i am not saying bjj is useless by any means.
My background is wrestling, judo and only currently about 3 years of bjj. In all the fights i've been in, wrestling and judo have been a better foundation for several reasons outside of dirty street tactics:

1. Balance. Not being able to be thrown off balance or taken down has helped me monumentally as a 60-65kg individual. You can't punch or do anything when you are off balance.

2. Understanding how to control limbs via grips like in judo or meat hooking like in wrestling. Since most people only throw wild rights, it's very easy to collar elbow tie a guy and not be in danger and adjust accordingly after, spin behind, snap downs and so forth.

3. Being able to take the larger person down if you have to, is better suited for judo/wrestling by being able to consistently end up on top, thus controlling and effectively managing damage. Most bjj players can't take people down for beans and this can prove very problematic as the nature of bjj is not focused on take downs enough. I've seen many bjj players end up on their back from drunkards and idiots, though they do get swept most often provided nobody is interfering (ideal scenario).

4. A high velocity take down has, for a number of times, ended fights for me since they generally incapacitate people or cause them to go into panic/turtling. You almost always also, end up in a very dominant position thereafter.

5. The scrappy nature and fast pace of judo and wrestling make for more realistic combat scenarios as said earlier. Your reaction timing is paramount, and bjj is typically too slow to match this.

6. In the event you are thrown/taken off balance, you are more used to this occurrence from hours of take downs and having the wind knocked out of you and can deal with this pressure better and reversing to come out on top (sit outs, switches, hip heists etc). The nature of these two sports is heavily focused on "play for broke" since if you end up in a bad situation, you don't have time to escape, you need to act now.

7. Judo makes throwing larger opponents easier when you understand what throws to use when. I won't uchi mata someone who is 6 foot 200 pounds, that is not likely to work. I may use tani otoshi if i'm caught in a headlock, a single leg, ko-uchi/o-uchi, de-ashi harai. Someone closer to my size, i may back arching throw, uchi mata, then.

With all this being said, these still don't account for the intangibles you may encounter. A kick to the kneecap can stop anyone, being hit in the throat hard, eye gouged, nut shotted repeatedly while being punched in the jaw, punched in the back of the neck where it meets the skull etc, will force different reactions from anyone. Most of these can't be trained for, they need to be reacted with. Best bet is to avoid fighting at all costs if you can.

Cliffs: I feel judo is better based off my experiences, BJJ will work no doubt, as can many other arts."
I have a bit of experience in both, and a preference - from a SD standpoint - for the way I was taught in Judo. There was more ground work than I think is common today, so more focus on ending the throw into a controlling position on the ground.

I agree with the reasoning you put forth. I'd also guess that MMA-oriented BJJ schools do a better job in some of those areas (speed of execution, for instance) than those that specialize in BJJ competitions. When nobody is going to hit you, it's easier to be slow and painstaking.
 

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Seems like a fair enough assessment, judo does focus on the standup which is more useful to more people most of the time. How ever is there any difference in break falls or the extent they are practiced? I keep forgetting if BJJ does that or not.
That likely varies by BJJ school, but they don't depend upon them to the level Judo does, so probably don't train them to the level Judo does. I could see training BJJ with only rudimentary instruction in falling.
 

Yokozuna514

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A high velocity take down has, for a number of times, ended fights
100% agree. Judo is a great self defence MA for many of the reasons you've stated. The only thing I would add is practicing break falls, I am sure, has also kept me alive in various accidents and tumbles I have been in over the years. It was either the break falls or I was super lucky. Maybe a bit of both......
 

gpseymour

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100% agree. Judo is a great self defence MA for many of the reasons you've stated. The only thing I would add is practicing break falls, I am sure, has also kept me alive in various accidents and tumbles I have been in over the years. It was either the break falls or I was super lucky. Maybe a bit of both......
I think being used to falling in odd contortions helps when you're falling unexpectedly. I tend to catch myself well far more often than I think most folks would, just because a fall doesn't seem quite so surprising to me.
 

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I've posted this before; Dermott 'Pat' O'Neill was the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in his era. William Fairbairn had his Judo BB certs signed by Kano himself. When WWII Combatives was created and implemented during WWII, no Judo was incorporated into the system. According to O'Neill, Judo is useless in combat unless the enemy is wearing a heavy gi. Don't get mad at me, that was their opinion when developing WWII combatives which is a highly effective, and brutal combat system. Gross motor skill simple and retained in long term memory.

Judo is a sport and was designed to be a sport. Doesn't mean that some elements can't be somewhat useful, but they have to be modified to the real world environment. For example, the technique in question needs to be effective regardless of what the attacker (an attacker, not an opponent) is wearing or not wearing. Please note that I'm not disrespecting Judo, simply that it wasn't designed for SD.

I work with a 2nd Dan in Judo. He's 6'8 and over 300lbs with matching strength. He and I have been in many uses-of-force on-duty. He's never used Judo techniques as taught but has had to modify them for use in actual violent encounters.
 

gpseymour

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I've posted this before; Dermott 'Pat' O'Neill was the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in his era. William Fairbairn had his Judo BB certs signed by Kano himself. When WWII Combatives was created and implemented during WWII, no Judo was incorporated into the system. According to O'Neill, Judo is useless in combat unless the enemy is wearing a heavy gi. Don't get mad at me, that was their opinion when developing WWII combatives which is a highly effective, and brutal combat system. Gross motor skill simple and retained in long term memory.

Judo is a sport and was designed to be a sport. Doesn't mean that some elements can't be somewhat useful, but they have to be modified to the real world environment. For example, the technique in question needs to be effective regardless of what the attacker (an attacker, not an opponent) is wearing or not wearing. Please note that I'm not disrespecting Judo, simply that it wasn't designed for SD.

I work with a 2nd Dan in Judo. He's 6'8 and over 300lbs with matching strength. He and I have been in many uses-of-force on-duty. He's never used Judo techniques as taught but has had to modify them for use in actual violent encounters.
Just because someone said it, that doesn't make it true. I've used Judo in self-defense, against a guy wearing a normal t-shirt. It worked quite well. Much depends on whether you practice both with and without using the fabric for handholds.
 

Kong Soo Do

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ust because someone said it, that doesn't make it true.

Depends on who is saying it. When you have the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in the world, as well as Fairbairn himself making the assessment it tends to carry weight.

I've used Judo in self-defense, against a guy wearing a normal t-shirt. It worked quite well. Much depends on whether you practice both with and without using the fabric for handholds.

But then you're not practicing traditional Judo as designed by Kano for the sport arena. And that's fine. As I mentioned above, some elements can be useful if modified.
 

gpseymour

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Depends on who is saying it. When you have the highest ranked non-Japanese Judoka in the world, as well as Fairbairn himself making the assessment it tends to carry weight.
No, actually, it doesn't matter who says it - the saying doesn't ever make it true. If something is true, it is true regardless of who happens to say it. I know too many examples of people actually using their Judo training outside sport for me to simply accept the word of someone who says something.

But then you're not practicing traditional Judo as designed by Kano for the sport arena. And that's fine. As I mentioned above, some elements can be useful if modified.
Actually, my Judo training was entirely focused on competition. That's what my instructor taught toward. He just felt you should be able to do the techniques without having to depend upon the cloth.

But that's beside the point. You're now delivering what's known as a "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
 

Kong Soo Do

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Actually, my Judo training was entirely focused on competition. That's what my instructor taught toward. He just felt you should be able to do the techniques without having to depend upon the cloth.

Then your Judo training was modified and therefore not strictly focused on competition. You can't have it both ways. And this in turn COMPLETELY validates what O'Neill stated 70+ years ago. If that's not to your liking, well, nothing I can really do with that. Either accept what O'Neill stated (who very likely had more experience as a Judoka than you or anyone on this board) or don't accept it. It is entirely up to you.
 

gpseymour

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Then your Judo training was modified and therefore not strictly focused on competition. You can't have it both ways. And this in turn COMPLETELY validates what O'Neill stated 70+ years ago. If that's not to your liking, well, nothing I can really do with that. Either accept what O'Neill stated (who very likely had more experience as a Judoka than you or anyone on this board) or don't accept it. It is entirely up to you.
Really? You know what my training was? That's pretty keen of you.

Well done.
 

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Thank you. It wasn't difficult to surmise.
 

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