The case for Judo as a self-defense system...

wab25

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If you look close, at least some of those people are not wearing a Judo gi. Oh I know... they are not wearing a gi and doing it on the street, therefore they modified Judo. To my small mind, most of those throws and some of the pins looked very much like Judo kata. Besides, anyway you want to slice it, the practice of Judo certainly did help these folks in their self defense situations a lot more than it hurt them. (actually, it kind of looked like it did hurt a few of those on the receiving end...)
 

Kong Soo Do

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Oh I know... they are not wearing a gi and doing it on the street, therefore they modified Judo.

Correct. And btw, at about the 50 second mark is a prime example of why sport Judo (or any sport training) is detrimental to effective SD. First, the one on top was more than content to stay on top and wrestle around. The one on the bottom missed about a dozen opportunities to end the fight brutally. Secondly, if just one of the crowd was a buddy and decided to punt one of their heads or just simply walk up and stomp on one of them, game over. So prime example of sport training methodology not being the best training methodology for the situation. The first demo in the video was another prime example where the guy goes to the ground on purpose. You don't go to the ground on purpose in a SD situation unless the area is controlled, the perp is controlled and ready to be cuffed.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Then your Judo training was modified and therefore not strictly focused on competition. You can't have it both ways. And this in turn COMPLETELY validates what O'Neill stated 70+ years ago. If that's not to your liking, well, nothing I can really do with that. Either accept what O'Neill stated (who very likely had more experience as a Judoka than you or anyone on this board) or don't accept it. It is entirely up to you.
I normally don't link (or point out) these fallacies, but you are about as close to asking for it as you can get without knocking on my door and saying "excuse me sir, what fallacy am I committing at the moment?"

Appeal to Authority
 

wab25

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Well, I must admit, you have stumped me. You win! Now, please enlighten me on what I should study, if anything? By your definition, people should not be training anything for self defense or law enforcement. See, if you use said training outside of your training clothing and on the street... it is by your definition, modified... and all those things you learned in training will then be detrimental to you. So, since you can't figure out what everyone will be wearing, and it will happen outside your training place... every art has to be modified and you will have to overcome those detrimental things. Would I be better off not training anything, so as not to have developed bad habits that will need to be modified?

Go to 4:50 then skip to 5:15. Once you introduce more buddies on the other guys side... it sucks no matter if you are up or down. So, there is that.
 

Kong Soo Do

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Well, like I said, I'm merely pointing out historical fact. One may accept, reject or ignore it as they wish.
 

wab25

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Well, like I said, I'm merely pointing out historical fact. One may accept, reject or ignore it as they wish.
I am accepting. You are right... my training sucks and will get me killed. I am waiting for you to enlighten me with which art to train in... that does not also suffer from the same problems that you have shown me. You can offer me the correct art to be training in right? One that does not have the same problems? I'll wait.
 

Kong Soo Do

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Well, I must admit, you have stumped me. You win!

I was unaware that this was a contest. I assumed it was a discussion, however, what I'm seeing is a bunch of folks that are easily offended at a differing point of view.

By your definition, people should not be training anything for self defense or law enforcement.

Not sure how you arrived at this conclusion, as I've said nothing of the sort. I have merely stated that sport training methodology is not only insufficient for self defense but a detriment. I've maintained this for years on this board. Many people over the years have understood this point. Some, unfortunately don't.

Now, please enlighten me on what I should study, if anything?

Anything based on a self-defense training methodology, if SD is your goal. If it's sport, then continue training in whatever sport art you prefer. Just don't confuse the two because they are separate. However, if you are sincerely interested in things that constitute a SD training methodology;

  • Train in various types of regular clothing.
  • Train in dim light conditions.
  • Train on stairs, in an elevator, in a vehicle, between vehicles, on the sidewalk, in a parking lot, in an alley etc.
  • Don't train in a controlled, artificial environment, on soft and dry mats, with a single opponent that has agreed to abide by a rule set.
  • Train with conventional and improvised weapons.
  • Train against multiple opponents.
  • Train to use de-escalation techniques.
  • Train for situational awareness.
That is a partial list.
 

Kong Soo Do

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I am accepting. You are right... my training sucks and will get me killed. I am waiting for you to enlighten me with which art to train in... that does not also suffer from the same problems that you have shown me. You can offer me the correct art to be training in right? One that does not have the same problems? I'll wait.

Ah, sarcasm.

Well, what the heck, I've got some time.

  • S.P.E.A.R. (Tony Blauer)
  • P.C.R. (Ken Good)
  • Boatman Edged Weapon Defense
  • Real Krav Maga (as taught by the Israeli IDF and not the watered down sport version)
  • Israeli Instinctive Shooting
  • Anything I teach and have taught for the last 33+ years to military, L.E., Corrections, E.P. agents and private citizens.
There, you are now enlightened. Also, the above is not an exhaustive list but a good start. Good luck in your journey.
 
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TMA17

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I will try and find that reddit quote.

I saw this today and thought it was a good list of points.

Top Ten Reasons Why Sport Judo is Effective – Judo Info

4) Uchikomi and Muscle Memory

The stress of a physical confrontation does not allow one to think about self-defense techniques; one must simple react and execute. Uchikomi supports this self-defense requirement. Uchikomi or form fitting a throwing technique is a judo training regimen that utilizes repetition to develop a throw as a natural body movement. With enough uchikomi a throw becomes second nature and the judoka does not think about its execution, but merely flows into the technique when the opportunity arises.
 
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TMA17

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I think the traits it builds up are important. It toughens you up, gets you in shape, improves your balance, and makes you hard to take down, act under pressure, etc. All good things to have.
 

wab25

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S.P.E.A.R. (Tony Blauer)
Looks like lots of dry, soft mat work, plenty of lighting, controlled environments, even a ton of body armor. Single opponent training. However, if your attacker does not wear body armor or camo shorts and a t shirt, you will be force to "modify" your art, if it is also happening on the street.

I found this interesting (from: Blauer Tactical Systems):
"This explains why no one looks cool in a real fight and why you almost never see technical martial arts being used in real violent encounters."
Its interesting because you can find plenty of video of people using Judo and wrestling and BJJ in real life self defense situations. Youtube is your friend here.

P.C.R. (Ken Good)
Again, you have the issue of the other guy not wearing camo pants and a green t shirt... once again forcing you to "modify" your art on the street. More soft dry mat work, and great lighting. Single opponent training here too.

My point is not that these arts are bad. Its that they have the same issues you keep bringing up. Different clothing, great lighting, practicing on mats and other controlled environments.

Training for sport is different than training for self defense. That said, its much easier to find video of folks using Judo, BJJ, Wrestling, and Boxing successfully, with recognizable techniques than it is to find for many other arts. I think the emphasis on training in a fully resisting environment, and learning to pull off their techniques against full resistance is a big plus for applying in a self defense situation. There are many successful applications to be found. Yes, you can go through each one and show that if something were different, it would not have worked. But I can play that game with any art or system you want.

At the end of the day your argument is "but if he doesn't do/wear what they did in training... you must modify your art, and what you did train may be detrimental to you." Thats true of every type of training imaginable. They aren't going to grab you right, they aren't going to respond right, they aren't going to wear the right clothes and they sure as heck are not going to fall down when they are supposed to. Thats what the sport aspect is so good at... teaching you to respond and modify on the fly, under stress and to make the other guy go down, even if he does it wrong or doesn't want to go down.
 

gpseymour

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Correct. And btw, at about the 50 second mark is a prime example of why sport Judo (or any sport training) is detrimental to effective SD. First, the one on top was more than content to stay on top and wrestle around. The one on the bottom missed about a dozen opportunities to end the fight brutally. Secondly, if just one of the crowd was a buddy and decided to punt one of their heads or just simply walk up and stomp on one of them, game over. So prime example of sport training methodology not being the best training methodology for the situation. The first demo in the video was another prime example where the guy goes to the ground on purpose. You don't go to the ground on purpose in a SD situation unless the area is controlled, the perp is controlled and ready to be cuffed.
Ah, confirmation bias at its finest.
 

gpseymour

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May be we should discussion the following issue:

Which part of the sport Judo training can deal with the fist flying situation?
And there we get to an actual issue with sport Judo training. This is an area where it tends to have gaps (same for sport BJJ, sport wrestling, etc.). Training oriented toward a sport that has a limited range (MMA's range is less limited than most, for example) will naturally tend to have gaps outside that range.

If I recall correctly, the early curriculum for Judo, contrary to assertions made by some, actually dealt with self-defense situations. There was an entire section, I think called goshin waza, for that purpose. I never got to that section - don't even know if my instructor ever taught it - so I'm not sure, but I'd expect it to include some punch-oriented defenses.
 

Kong Soo Do

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ooks like lots of dry, soft mat work, plenty of lighting, controlled environments, even a ton of body armor. Single opponent training

Amazing that you surmised the totality of SPEAR and/or PCR training (normally a minimum of a 40 hour course each) in a 4 minute video. If you think about it long enough, you'll see the flaw in your logic. I certainly have. Have you ever taken the actual course? Of course you haven't. I have, and also teach the course to HL professionals. Guess what? Part of the training is in dim light. Part of the training is with weapons such as side arm and long gun. Part of it with body armor and part of it in street clothes. If you folks would stop being so butt-hurt then perhaps you'll start to have more understanding.

Youtube is your friend here.

Or more accurately, YT provides you with a short clip, which you have no idea of the background, and then force it to fit your pre-conceived bias.

Training for sport is different than training for self defense.

The only correct thing you've said thus far. You should leave it at that and walk away with the satisfaction that you got that part correct.

You have no idea, do you?

Oh, actually I do. I challenged your bias and you got butt-hurt from your first post instead of approaching it with the intention of a friendly discussion. Which is what this board is suppose to be about. Which, as a moderator, your suppose to not only adhere to, but encourage. Perhaps you need to reconsider the mod hat. In that I'm both a mod and an admin on various other boards, of various topics, you're not doing it well.
 

wab25

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Which part of the sport Judo training can deal with the fist flying situation?
Most of it actually. Look up Gene Lebelle... he was a Judo guy who took a lot of challenge matches with different arts, and handled them quite well... including guys who could punch. While I am not a fan of Ronda Rousy, she went 12 and 0 in MMA, lots of fights in the UFC against gals that could punch. They eventually got her... but at the higher levels of MMA, they are going to give anyone problems. Also Karo Parisyan did well as a Judo player in MMA. I know Royce Gracie is bjj, but he won 3 of the first 4 tournaments (these tournaments took place in one night) and then went 30 minutes with Ken Shamrock, before he took a significant punch to the face. I remember the commentator saying "Now we will see if Royce can take a punch." Judo done well, does not give you much time to punch. Your first punch better be good against a Judo player, because you might not get another chance... and his throw is good.
 
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