best lethal grip breaks

Jusroc

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In a world populated by Jiu Jutsu / Judo / Sambo experts
The possibility that we may be attacked by someone who knows how to grip is much more likely than say in the early 90s.

Getting attacked or in a fight, with a Jiu Jitsu expert must be one of the biggest nightmare scenario's for anyone who
does not do a grappling martial art to an advanced enough level...

So. For those who are not grappling experts, perhaps it would be wise to learn how to break the grips of expert grippers
and considering how lethal the attacks potentially could be, i think it would be wise to know how to not only break the main
grips used by BJJ / Judo experts, but also it would be wise to do damage to those who are gripping, so as to do your best
to put their weapons out of action (although, please note, that if someone is very skilled in either BJJ or Judo, they will likely
still be able to put many of the locks and even strangles on, as well as even throw even with broken wrists / fingers, if their the
hard as nails types... which do exist... i think the Gracies have proven their ability to not only give but take punishment)...

still.....
for predominantly striking martial arts... learning to break grips, i would say is a new essential skill to add to your repertoire of techniques.

So.... anyone any techniques they wanna share.
I will start by referring you to Wally Jay Ju Jutsu, who's hybrid Ju Jitsu, which he developed during the 60s and onwards.

Prof Wally Jay Finger Locks


Professor Wally Jay's Judo / Ju Jutsu included finger locks, which I think would make most sport Judoka's upset.

Professor Wally Jay finger Locks
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Grip breaks are one of the first things a lot of arts teach. And it's been that way for at least 20 years.

That aside, my main question- how does one make a grip break lethal?
 

BrendanF

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I don't have any particular techniques to share - I'm not the best at breaking grips.. my Judo teacher's grip is exceptionally strong. I would not recommend targeting the fingers myself though, for a couple of reasons. I think fighting the grip using movement of one's entire body, using leverage and large movement to break the grip would be preferable; this enables you to remain aware of all that is happening between you and your opponent, where concerted focus on a small task such as wrenching fingers may narrow one's perception. Then too, I've broken every single finger on both hands at one time or another, and none of them stopped me from engaging in what I was doing..
 

geezer

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...still ....for predominantly striking martial arts... learning to break grips, i would say is a new essential skill to add to your repertoire of techniques.
So.... anyone any techniques they wanna share.
Countering the moves of a skilled grappler is entirely different subject than just breaking a strong grip. My comments are directed just to this latter subject: the strong grip and joint locks.

When someone grabs you with the intent of doing a joint lock or something similar, the simplest, quickest response is often the best. So while we do train a variety of grip breaks and grip reversals, I have had the best results with a simple punch.

In our Wing Chun we do a lot of contact/sensitivity training so the instant you feel something a bit off, ...i.e. someone initiating a grapple or lock,m you instantly strike on centerline. Strike hard. It often releases or at least relaxes the grip enough to apply one of the follow up techniques, such as huen sau (circle hand), to free the hand or reverse the grapple.

Another technique often used against an attempted joint lock is any of several versions of tut sau or "freeing hand". This is a technique in which the grappled hand is extended and the rear hand scrapes forward along the forearm like a spoke-shave clearing away the grappler's hand ....and ideally continuing forward becoming a punch striking your opponent. In this fashion, it is frequently combined with the direct punch response described above.

This simple freeing arm technique is so valued in the WC system that different versions of it are repeated in all three empty-handed forms, Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu, and Biu Tze. And while there are ever-so-many other responses also trained, our philosophy stresses simplicity. It is far better to train one technique to the level where it can beat many attacks than the converse: to learn many techniques to counter one attack. I'll go with freeing hand and a punch!
 

drop bear

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The best grip breaks are those that do not expose you for counter attack. More than ones that do damage.

So be careful of giving up your back or dropping your guard with this idea that you are going to do some unopposed finger bend.
 

Hanzou

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Let me just stress the extreme unlikelihood of an expert BJJ exponent attacking you. BJJ is a rather expensive martial art to learn, and its typical practitioners are middle to upper class suburbanites and their children. If you do run across a criminal grappler in the US, it's more than likely an ex- high school wrestler or football player. In that case, I wouldn't worry too much about locks and chokes, and be more worried about dealing with body slams, tackles, body holds, ground and pound, explosiveness, and raw strength.

However, in the unlikely event you do run across a high-level BJJ exponent who for whatever reason wants to turn you into a pretzel, those Wally Jay finger locks ain't going to work. The 2 main reasons is because BJJ trains you how to hide your fingers from getting grabbed, and because a BJJ exponent typically doesn't go for a lock or choke until they have you in an inferior position. Additionally some chokes and locks, like the Triangle Choke or Omoplata don't really use fingers to apply the hold/choke.

I'm also really curious how someone thinks grip breaking is going to help if they've never grappled before. I mean, yeah, grip breaking can work if you know what you're doing in the initial stages. However, do you really think you can beat an expert grappler at grip fighting and just grip break everything they grab? Also how exactly do you grip break a double leg takedown? Further if I have you in say, side control, how are you going to grip fight me? I'm not holding you down with grips, I'm holding you down with weight and pressure. Hell, I've tapped out to people who were simply really good at applying top pressure in side control, no submission required.

Honestly your best bet is to spend about 6 months at a legit BJJ school and learn the basics. Learning how to sweep, escape, closed guard, get back to your feet, hide your limbs, and yes, to grip break is infinitely better than watching Wally Jay finger breaking videos.
 
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geezer

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I'm also really curious how someone thinks grip breaking is going to help if they've never grappled before. I mean, yeah, grip breaking can work if you know what you're doing in the initial stages. However, do you really think you can beat an expert grappler at grip fighting and just grip break everything they grab? Also how exactly do you grip break a double leg takedown? Further if I have you in say, side control, how are you going to grip fight me? I'm not holding you down with grips, I'm holding you down with weight and pressure.
Um ....yeah.

I'm totally ignorant about grappling other than wrestling as a kid in school, and I was pretty much thinking the same thing as what you said. The term used in the title of the OP, "lethal grip" was like a red flag. IMO joint and wrist locks aren't "lethal grips". In my limited experience, standing joint locks seem pretty tough to pull off against violent resistance.

Now, just as a spectator mind you, I'd say a rear naked choke or triangle choke could damn well be lethal if someone chose not to release or something. But that's not what the OP seems to be talking about. Guess i'm confused, Hanzou.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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So.... anyone any techniques they wanna share.
This is "tearing".


This is "elbow pressing". This one will work 100%.

elbow-pressing.gif
 
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Hanzou

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Um ....yeah.

I'm totally ignorant about grappling other than wrestling as a kid in school, and I was pretty much thinking the same thing as what you said. The term used in the title of the OP, "lethal grip" was like a red flag. IMO joint and wrist locks aren't "lethal grips". In my limited experience, standing joint locks seem pretty tough to pull off against violent resistance.

Now, just as a spectator mind you, I'd say a rear naked choke or triangle choke could damn well be lethal if someone chose not to release or something. But that's not what the OP seems to be talking about. Guess i'm confused, Hanzou.

Yeah, those are really the only "lethal grips" he could be talking about, unless he means someone slamming you on your head via a suplex or a fireman carry. We really don't do those kind of throws in BJJ though, because we're far gentler folk. Joint locks typically aren't done by BJJers until they have achieved a superior position, and they're typically done on the ground because that's where you have more body control over your opponent. There are things like standing Kimuras and the standing Waki Gatame, but those are comparatively rare. Honestly, standing chokes are more common. BTW, this is standard BJJ talking, there's definitely elite BJJ people out there that can joint lock you while they are in inferior positions, and do all kinds of nasty stuff while on their feet, so yeah...

Perhaps the OP can clarify.
 

Hanzou

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Of course, if there is no clothes, there will be no grip.

Ususlly a monster grip is a grip that you can't break it apart.


Thing is, someone doesn't need a grip to throw you, they can throw you with a body lock.

Check out this video of wrestling being used in "street fighting". Pretty much every throw is from a body lock;

 

Kung Fu Wang

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Thing is, someone doesn't need a grip to throw you, they can throw you with a body lock.

Check out this video of wrestling being used in "street fighting". Pretty much every throw is from a body lock;

You don't need grip to throw your opponent. But your grip can prevent your opponent from getting close to you.

Also by using your grip, you can pull your opponent. You can then take advantage on his resisting or yielding.


my-tearing.gif
 
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drop bear

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Let me just stress the extreme unlikelihood of an expert BJJ exponent attacking you. BJJ is a rather expensive martial art to learn, and its typical practitioners are middle to upper class suburbanites and their children. If you do run across a criminal grappler in the US, it's more than likely an ex- high school wrestler or football player. In that case, I wouldn't worry too much about locks and chokes, and be more worried about dealing with body slams, tackles, body holds, ground and pound, explosiveness, and raw strength.

However, in the unlikely event you do run across a high-level BJJ exponent who for whatever reason wants to turn you into a pretzel, those Wally Jay finger locks ain't going to work. The 2 main reasons is because BJJ trains you how to hide your fingers from getting grabbed, and because a BJJ exponent typically doesn't go for a lock or choke until they have you in an inferior position. Additionally some chokes and locks, like the Triangle Choke or Omoplata don't really use fingers to apply the hold/choke.

I'm also really curious how someone thinks grip breaking is going to help if they've never grappled before. I mean, yeah, grip breaking can work if you know what you're doing in the initial stages. However, do you really think you can beat an expert grappler at grip fighting and just grip break everything they grab? Also how exactly do you grip break a double leg takedown? Further if I have you in say, side control, how are you going to grip fight me? I'm not holding you down with grips, I'm holding you down with weight and pressure. Hell, I've tapped out to people who were simply really good at applying top pressure in side control, no submission required.

Honestly your best bet is to spend about 6 months at a legit BJJ school and learn the basics. Learning how to sweep, escape, closed guard, get back to your feet, hide your limbs, and yes, to grip break is infinitely better than watching Wally Jay finger breaking videos.

It is a fundamental defence regardless. I just spent some time with a competitive bjj black belt. And he warms up by breaking grips.

The theory is we get lazy and let people get position.

So grip breaking isn't necessarily going to hurt.

Most of his stuff from wrist grabs was literally just compressing your arms back in to your body. Which is really effective. But you are also facing and ready to fire back.
 

Hanzou

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It is a fundamental defence regardless. I just spent some time with a competitive bjj black belt. And he warms up by breaking grips.

The theory is we get lazy and let people get position.

So grip breaking isn't necessarily going to hurt.

Oh, I certainly agree. I'm simply saying you should learn it within a greater grappling sphere that also includes escapes, breakfalls, sweeps, etc. In short, you should learn it from a grappling school while you're learning to actually grapple. Doing grip breaking every other month at your karate school isn't going to do you much good.
 

drop bear

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Oh, I certainly agree. I'm simply saying you should learn it within a greater grappling sphere that includes escapes, sweeps, etc. In short, you should learn it from a grappling school while you're learning to actually grapple. Doing grip breaking every other month at your karate school isn't going to do you much good.

I think it is definitely better to learn to grapple. But I think it is also an independent skill.

And I think there is a lot of garbage in that field. So a good grip breaking module is worth just learning anyway.

It would be good information to get out there.
 

Hanzou

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I think it is definitely better to learn to grapple. But I think it is also an independent skill.

And I think there is a lot of garbage in that field. So a good grip breaking module is worth just learning anyway.

It would be good information to get out there.

Just so we understand each other here; You believe that dabbling in grip breaking alone is enough to stop an "expert grappler" from imposing their will on someone?
 

drop bear

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Just so we understand each other here; You believe that dabbling in grip breaking alone is enough to stop an "expert grappler" from imposing their will on someone?

No I am saying it is a worthwhile dip for basically anyone who wants to martial art.
 
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Jusroc

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Grip breaks are one of the first things a lot of arts teach. And it's been that way for at least 20 years.

That aside, my main question- how does one make a grip break lethal?
Just to clarify.
I would distinguish between normal grip non damaging grip breaks (as allowed in competition) against
grip breaks that dislocate joints, snap ligaments and tendons, rupture muscles etc.

In Judo and BJJ, there are various common grip breaks that are allowed.
I believe that Judo are more strict as to what types of grip breaks are allowed and what grip breaks are not allowed,
more so that BJJ.

I am not sure if the IJF rules are still excluding 2 handed grip breaks, or grip breaks that also employ the use of leg force etc. Last time i refereed, there was strict rules about what was and what was not allowed.

Nonetheless, haven seen people in competition get their fingers accidentally damaged (which is easily done)
and haven had various small bones of my body also broken due to other people's use of excessive force,
and haven done aikido for a while, and experienced the excruciating pain when various wrist locks are applied,

I fully believe that grip breaks can cause significant if not semi permanent damage, if applied to that desired effect.
Even Wally Jay's finger locks, if applied with enough force, extremely quickly. in a split second has the potential to do enough damage to put off many attackers. As with the lethal knee attacks, that also would put someone out of action to enough extent to stop them from attacking you any more.

I have trained in Self defence systems that include grip breaks ,but which are not really pressure tested or trained to
the level of resistance to get an idea of what works and what does not work.

As ungentlemanly it may be to use such vicious techniques against an expert attacker, and perhaps world really piss off someone who has trained for years so they can bully people with their superior technical BJJ skills (*please note i am not calling all BJJ practitioners bullies, but with any martial art that gives a person power, there will always be a portion of douche bags that will use their new power to hurt their innocent victims. From what know, joining a BJJ club does not instantly make you the good guy, no offense. Sure, generally speaking most martial artists are good. But there are individuals and even cells of people who train for the wrong reason or who have no problem to hurt people with their newly found power).
 
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Jusroc

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Let me just stress the extreme unlikelihood of an expert BJJ exponent attacking you. BJJ is a rather expensive martial art to learn, and its typical practitioners are middle to upper class suburbanites and their children. If you do run across a criminal grappler in the US, it's more than likely an ex- high school wrestler or football player. In that case, I wouldn't worry too much about locks and chokes, and be more worried about dealing with body slams, tackles, body holds, ground and pound, explosiveness, and raw strength.

However, in the unlikely event you do run across a high-level BJJ exponent who for whatever reason wants to turn you into a pretzel, those Wally Jay finger locks ain't going to work. The 2 main reasons is because BJJ trains you how to hide your fingers from getting grabbed, and because a BJJ exponent typically doesn't go for a lock or choke until they have you in an inferior position. Additionally some chokes and locks, like the Triangle Choke or Omoplata don't really use fingers to apply the hold/choke.

I'm also really curious how someone thinks grip breaking is going to help if they've never grappled before. I mean, yeah, grip breaking can work if you know what you're doing in the initial stages. However, do you really think you can beat an expert grappler at grip fighting and just grip break everything they grab? Also how exactly do you grip break a double leg takedown? Further if I have you in say, side control, how are you going to grip fight me? I'm not holding you down with grips, I'm holding you down with weight and pressure. Hell, I've tapped out to people who were simply really good at applying top pressure in side control, no submission required.

Honestly your best bet is to spend about 6 months at a legit BJJ school and learn the basics. Learning how to sweep, escape, closed guard, get back to your feet, hide your limbs, and yes, to grip break is infinitely better than watching Wally Jay finger breaking videos.
Just to clarify what i mean by my post.

I personally believe there isn't good or bad styles morally, the techniques are techniques.
It is purely down to the individual as to whether an individual will use their skills learnt at a martial art
to hurt people or not.

Even over my short life, i have known of various terrorist factions practicing a martial as a group
with the intention that they can then bully people even more that they did before.
In some cases, those trained in the various martial arts do go on to commit acts of terror.
But anyway, that's is changing the subject of the thread really. Just to clarify.

Not all people who put on a kimono are instantly innocent good guys.
I do not hate BJJ, I really love BJJ.

But as said before, its not the techniques that are bad, its a tiny minority that would use theses techniques
to hurt people.

And this type of thing isn't new, for hundreds of years bad people have been known to abuse martial art techniques for personal gain or for pure sadism. For example. boxing was the style of choice for some thugs before various martial arts became popular. Again, no boxing coach teaches their students to go out and punch civilians heads in, but some choose to.

I am not saying the Gracies or even any BJJ instructor promotes this idea, but bad people exist.
And what if one of these bad people gets good at BJJ / Judo / Sambo / Wrestling.
 

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