Anti-grappling.

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K-man

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As the result of numerous disparaging references to a anti-grappling in a couple of other threads I thought it might be interesting to flesh out the concept. To be honest, I had never heard of anti-grappling until Hanzou threw it in to take a low shot at WC.

So we are all on the same page, here is the reference Hanzou used to put it down.

Hands Off WingTsun Anti Grappling and MMA

When I read the Hanzou's posts dissing WC I was really wondering what this ridiculous anti-grappling stuff was. It seemed like it must be a little bit like anti-matter. You know, matter plus anti-matter and 'poof' no more matter. Grappling plus anti-grappling ... 'poof' ... well, you get the picture.

Imagine my surprise when I read the article. It actually makes sense, unlike the rant against it.

So let's consider the situation. WC is a dynamic system. That is, it is evolving like BJJ, Krav, Systema and other modern systems. Grappling has always been with us beginning with wrestling but also in Jujutsu, Tegumi from Okinawa and a number of other arts. Judo has been with us for ages, wrestling for even longer but neither of those was really an issue for people learning Boxing, Karate, TKD etc. With BJJ the dynamic changed. Even more since Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and the advent of MMA.

As as we have already discussed at length not all martial arts are trained for competition and to the unending surprise and chagrin of others not all martial artists want to fight in competitions. Even though these arts are not competing it is inevitable that at some stage trained martial artists from any style you care to name will come into contact with trained exponents of BJJ. As was seen in the early days of the UFC, the GJJ guys did a fantastic job of showcasing their art.

Now, most martial arts have just accepted BJJ for what it is. Some guys have cross trained, some have gone to MMA and picked up bits of it. Krav and Systema have take bits of BJJ, but hats off to WC who have looked at it, concluded that they still don't want to be on the ground from choice, but that some grappler might take them to the ground. Hence the need to develop strategies to combat a grappler. Rather than diss WC for using their system to develop strategies to combat a grappler using WC principles, I think WC should be commended.

I look forward to some interesting discussion.
:asian:
 

Tony Dismukes

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As the result of numerous disparaging references to a anti-grappling in a couple of other threads I thought it might be interesting to flesh out the concept. To be honest, I had never heard of anti-grappling until Hanzou threw it in to take a low shot at WC.

So we are all on the same page, here is the reference Hanzou used to put it down.

Hands Off WingTsun Anti Grappling and MMA

When I read the Hanzou's posts dissing WC I was really wondering what this ridiculous anti-grappling stuff was. It seemed like it must be a little bit like anti-matter. You know, matter plus anti-matter and 'poof' no more matter. Grappling plus anti-grappling ... 'poof' ... well, you get the picture.

Imagine my surprise when I read the article. It actually makes sense, unlike the rant against it.

So let's consider the situation. WC is a dynamic system. That is, it is evolving like BJJ, Krav, Systema and other modern systems. Grappling has always been with us beginning with wrestling but also in Jujutsu, Tegumi from Okinawa and a number of other arts. Judo has been with us for ages, wrestling for even longer but neither of those was really an issue for people learning Boxing, Karate, TKD etc. With BJJ the dynamic changed. Even more since Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and the advent of MMA.

As as we have already discussed at length not all martial arts are trained for competition and to the unending surprise and chagrin of others not all martial artists want to fight in competitions. Even though these arts are not competing it is inevitable that at some stage trained martial artists from any style you care to name will come into contact with trained exponents of BJJ. As was seen in the early days of the UFC, the GJJ guys did a fantastic job of showcasing their art.

Now, most martial arts have just accepted BJJ for what it is. Some guys have cross trained, some have gone to MMA and picked up bits of it. Krav and Systema have take bits of BJJ, but hats off to WC who have looked at it, concluded that they still don't want to be on the ground from choice, but that some grappler might take them to the ground. Hence the need to develop strategies to combat a grappler. Rather than diss WC for using their system to develop strategies to combat a grappler using WC principles, I think WC should be commended.

I look forward to some interesting discussion.
:asian:

i read the the article and much of the theory and the ideas make sense. When he starts getting into some of the actual specifics of the implementation ... not so much. Telling someone who is mounted to attack the groin is unlikely to end well even against an untrained opponent. Against a skilled opponent it is going to get you hurt badly.

i'm all for stand-up martial artists knowing how to stop takedowns, escape bad positions on the ground, and regain the feet. You don't have to be an expert grappler to do that, although you do need to understand a subset of the grappling curriculum. There are even principles within Wing Chun which could probably help to develop those skills. I just don't have faith, based on what this guy has written, that he has a good program for this purpose.
 

drop bear

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i read the the article and much of the theory and the ideas make sense. When he starts getting into some of the actual specifics of the implementation ... not so much. Telling someone who is mounted to attack the groin is unlikely to end well even against an untrained opponent. Against a skilled opponent it is going to get you hurt badly.

i'm all for stand-up martial artists knowing how to stop takedowns, escape bad positions on the ground, and regain the feet. You don't have to be an expert grappler to do that, although you do need to understand a subset of the grappling curriculum. There are even principles within Wing Chun which could probably help to develop those skills. I just don't have faith, based on what this guy has written, that he has a good program for this purpose.

By the way can we get one misconception straight first. I don't train for the ring. I am never going to be the next mma superstar. And a ring fight will only come secondary to my real life. If at all at the moment. But I do a job where I have to get physical and my training really helps.

I am not the only person who trains sport for the street.

Tony are you in this for metamoris or is there a self defence element in your training?
 

Tony Dismukes

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By the way can we get one misconception straight first. I don't train for the ring. I am never going to be the next mma superstar. And a ring fight will only come secondary to my real life. If at all at the moment. But I do a job where I have to get physical and my training really helps.

I am not the only person who trains sport for the street.

Tony are you in this for metamoris or is there a self defence element in your training?

i'm primarily oriented towards self-defense application. I am working towards picking up a little BJJ competition experience on the side for fun and for the sake of my students who want to go that route, but it's a secondary consideration.
 

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Now, most martial arts have just accepted BJJ for what it is. Some guys have cross trained, some have gone to MMA and picked up bits of it. Krav and Systema have take bits of BJJ, but hats off to WC who have looked at it, concluded that they still don't want to be on the ground from choice, but that some grappler might take them to the ground. Hence the need to develop strategies to combat a grappler. Rather than diss WC for using their system to develop strategies to combat a grappler using WC principles, I think WC should be commended.

We should applaud them for creating an ineffective system that is untested against what it was supposedly designed to defend against?

What makes all this even more dubious is the fact that its not like its hard to find a grappler to test this stuff on. It's not even hard to go to your local Bjj/MMA school and test this yourself. WT exponents refuse to test this stuff in any meaningful way. That's what makes this even worse.
 
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K-man

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We should applaud them for creating an ineffective system that is untested against what it was supposedly designed to defend against?

What makes all this even more dubious is the fact that its not like its hard to find a grappler to test this stuff on. It's not even hard to go to your local Bjj/MMA school and test this yourself. WT exponents refuse to test this stuff in any meaningful way. That's what makes this even worse.
Apart from you, who is saying it is ineffective? Apart from you, who is saying it is untested? Do you really believe anyone of any note would try and improve their system without consulting people who actually know what they are talking about? I'm not the only one here who finds your posts offensive. Your attitude towards other styles is deplorable.

I haven't seen a lot of WC and I bet you can find some terrible video of WC, as you did with Krav and TKD, to totally prove that WC is a joke compared to the great stuff that all the guys like you, at the top of their game in BJJ can do. But at the end of the day these guys are developing their system to handle a grappler. Now if a great grappler, such as yourself, really wanted to be of assistance, perhaps you could offer your services to assist these poor guys, who obviously have never had access to people as tallented as you obviously must be, to make their system bombproof. Then they could actually go in to the Octagon on an equal footing and whip everybody's ****. ;)
 

Hanzou

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Apart from you, who is saying it is ineffective? Apart from you, who is saying it is untested?

Check the anti-grappling thread in the WC forum. Plenty of people besides me said it was embarrassing or ineffective.

Do you really believe anyone of any note would try and improve their system without consulting people who actually know what they are talking about? I'm not the only one here who finds your posts offensive. Your attitude towards other styles is deplorable.

If they did, they would have come up with far better results.

I haven't seen a lot of WC and I bet you can find some terrible video of WC, as you did with Krav and TKD, to totally prove that WC is a joke compared to the great stuff that all the guys like you, at the top of their game in BJJ can do. But at the end of the day these guys are developing their system to handle a grappler. Now if a great grappler, such as yourself, really wanted to be of assistance, perhaps you could offer your services to assist these poor guys, who obviously have never had access to people as tallented as you obviously must be, to make their system bombproof. Then they could actually go in to the Octagon on an equal footing and whip everybody's ****. ;)

Well since you bought it up, how about you find a video of some bad Bjj. I'm sure its out there somewhere right?

If not, think about why that is exactly.
 

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Apart from you, who is saying it is ineffective? Apart from you, who is saying it is untested? Do you really believe anyone of any note would try and improve their system without consulting people who actually know what they are talking about? I'm not the only one here who finds your posts offensive. Your attitude towards other styles is deplorable.

I haven't seen a lot of WC and I bet you can find some terrible video of WC, as you did with Krav and TKD, to totally prove that WC is a joke compared to the great stuff that all the guys like you, at the top of their game in BJJ can do. But at the end of the day these guys are developing their system to handle a grappler. Now if a great grappler, such as yourself, really wanted to be of assistance, perhaps you could offer your services to assist these poor guys, who obviously have never had access to people as tallented as you obviously must be, to make their system bombproof. Then they could actually go in to the Octagon on an equal footing and whip everybody's ****. ;)
Kman, what's your angle here? You don't train WC. You don't train BJJ or any other grappling art. You seem to be speaking with some degree of authority on things about which you admit not having any experience. What's the point other than to stir the pot and try to provoke the guy who's screen name you used liberally in the OP?

If you can't see others here who are concerned about the implausibility of the techniques demonstrated in these anti-grappling videos, you're not "listening."
 

Hong Kong Pooey

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As the result of numerous disparaging references to a anti-grappling in a couple of other threads I thought it might be interesting to flesh out the concept. To be honest, I had never heard of anti-grappling until Hanzou threw it in to take a low shot at WC.

So we are all on the same page, here is the reference Hanzou used to put it down.

Hands Off WingTsun Anti Grappling and MMA

When I read the Hanzou's posts dissing WC I was really wondering what this ridiculous anti-grappling stuff was. It seemed like it must be a little bit like anti-matter. You know, matter plus anti-matter and 'poof' no more matter. Grappling plus anti-grappling ... 'poof' ... well, you get the picture.

Imagine my surprise when I read the article. It actually makes sense, unlike the rant against it.

So let's consider the situation. WC is a dynamic system. That is, it is evolving like BJJ, Krav, Systema and other modern systems. Grappling has always been with us beginning with wrestling but also in Jujutsu, Tegumi from Okinawa and a number of other arts. Judo has been with us for ages, wrestling for even longer but neither of those was really an issue for people learning Boxing, Karate, TKD etc. With BJJ the dynamic changed. Even more since Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and the advent of MMA.

As as we have already discussed at length not all martial arts are trained for competition and to the unending surprise and chagrin of others not all martial artists want to fight in competitions. Even though these arts are not competing it is inevitable that at some stage trained martial artists from any style you care to name will come into contact with trained exponents of BJJ. As was seen in the early days of the UFC, the GJJ guys did a fantastic job of showcasing their art.

Now, most martial arts have just accepted BJJ for what it is. Some guys have cross trained, some have gone to MMA and picked up bits of it. Krav and Systema have take bits of BJJ, but hats off to WC who have looked at it, concluded that they still don't want to be on the ground from choice, but that some grappler might take them to the ground. Hence the need to develop strategies to combat a grappler. Rather than diss WC for using their system to develop strategies to combat a grappler using WC principles, I think WC should be commended.

I look forward to some interesting discussion.
:asian:

I only got round to reading that article today from the other thread and have to say it makes a lot of sense to me too, and I'm in complete agreement with the above. Although as a WT student I guess that's entirely predictable.

I'm not going to get into the efficacy of the techniques (pointless) but I do find it interesting how some of us can read it and think it's a perfectly logical and reasonable approach for the context in which the art is designed to be used, and others think it's "fraudulent" and we all should just learn grappling instead.

Wouldn't the world be a dull place if people were all the same!
 

Hanzou

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It says in the title he's a "BJJ stylist".

So it must be true ;)

And Shawn Obasi says he's a Wing Chun stylist when he's trained in MMA extensively.

Howabout a video from an actual Bjj school demonstrating a technique that looks pretty terrible?

Here's an example that fits right along with the thread;

 
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K-man

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Kman, what's your angle here? You don't train WC. You don't train BJJ or any other grappling art. You seem to be speaking with some degree of authority on things about which you admit not having any experience. What's the point other than to stir the pot and try to provoke the guy who's screen name you used liberally in the OP?

If you can't see others here who are concerned about the implausibility of the techniques demonstrated in these anti-grappling videos, you're not "listening."
OK. I don't train WC and I have little knowledge of WC. What I do have is some of Emin Boztepe's material which I do refer to from time to time because I believe he has worked his WC into a RB form and because Okinawan Goju is heavily influenced by CMAs I can find similarities.

I don't train BJJ but it is not true to say I don't train a grappling art. Aikido is a grappling art to a large extent and we train in a way to try and minimise the risk of being taken to the ground. You might call that anti-grappling in the context. Okinawan Goju is a grappling art. All the bunkai is hands on and designed to take your opponent to the ground without ending up there yourself. That also in this context is anti-grappling. Krav is a grappling art. The whole point of Krav is to get in, get control and finish with your opponent on the ground without going down yourself. If you go down too the training is to regain your feet ASAP. That also in this context is anti-grappling.

Now, to my mind, BJJ is principally a ground grappling system. Please feel free to help me understand it more if this is the wrong opinion. If I was to be taken to the ground by an experienced BJJ guy I'm sure he would kick my ****. Against a less experienced person I'm sure I could hold my own. But my strength is standing up. I don't train to go to the ground. In that sense my training is anti-grappling as well.

Now I hadn't heard of the term 'anti-grappling' before Hanzou, you know, the guy with the screen name you declined to use, used it in a thread dissing WC, and I might say totally outside the topic of discussion. So I went looking to see what this anti-grappling was all about. What I read made perfect sense to me. The guys within that style of WC were trying to develop techniques within the WC system to combat opponents with grappling skills. Do you have an issue with that?

Most videos posted by Hanzou have been to point out another style's inadequacies. As far as I am aware there was just the one put up to demonstrate that all of WC's anti-grappling is 'fraudulent'. Now I am perfectly happy to listen to what people with more experience than me have to say. I have taken much from MT over the years and incorporated things into my training where they have been a fit or covered a hole. I haven't voiced an opinion one way or the other on the techniques incorporated into the WC anti-grappling. I saw what was posted and if, in the opinion of people like Tony Dismukes and others whose opinion I value, what is shown is poor technique I am more than happy to take it on board.

So no, I am not stirring the pot. I posted this thread so the other thread wouldn't be thread-jacked by anti-grappling rhetoric. Perhaps if you read the threads with an open mind you might find I am not trying to provoke, I am calling BS when I see it and if you want to see examples where someone with no knowledge is provoking people with knowledge perhaps you might care to read any of the threads discussing kata bunkai. :)
 

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I only got round to reading that article today from the other thread and have to say it makes a lot of sense to me too, and I'm in complete agreement with the above. Although as a WT student I guess that's entirely predictable.

I'm not going to get into the efficacy of the techniques (pointless) but I do find it interesting how some of us can read it and think it's a perfectly logical and reasonable approach for the context in which the art is designed to be used, and others think it's "fraudulent" and we all should just learn grappling instead.

Wouldn't the world be a dull place if people were all the same!

I think the rationale is perfectly logical. It has everything to do with the efficacy of the actual techniques. It's the application of the philosophy that raises some questions.
That you think it's pointless to get into the efficacy of the techniques is insight into the ongoing miscommunication. You guys are speaking philosophically. Others, including me, distinguish between the theory and the application.

I think a lot of this could really work well if trained with people who are competent grapplers. I've said so several times, and so have others, including hanzou. I also believe that the application of WC philosophies and principles would look different if tested against competent grapplers. I've pointed out some very concerning techniques demonstrated in other threads.


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Hong Kong Pooey

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I think the rationale is perfectly logical. It has everything to do with the efficacy of the actual techniques. It's the application of the philosophy that raises some questions.
That you think it's pointless to get into the efficacy of the techniques is insight into the ongoing miscommunication. You guys are speaking philosophically. Others, including me, distinguish between the theory and the application.

I think a lot of this could really work well if trained with people who are competent grapplers. I've said so several times, and so have others, including hanzou. I also believe that the application of WC philosophies and principles would look different if tested against competent grapplers. I've pointed out some very concerning techniques demonstrated in other threads.


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Fair comment.

I'll just clarify my pointless remark:

Firstly it's absolutely pointless for ME to discuss the efficacy of the techniques as I'm a WT student not a master, and have no specific knowledge of grappling/ground fighting.

Secondly I'm of the opinion that it's fairly pointless for anyone to discuss them as it invariably ends up as a "well If you do this I'll do that" "no you couldn't" or "that wouldn't work" type of argument, which really solves nothing.

I'd love to see the anti-grappling stuff properly tested as it were, and it's success or failure, but as it hasn't happened yet the jury is still out for me and will remain so until I either see it properly tested or actually test it myself.

You guys can of course continue to discuss it's efficacy all you want, and no doubt will :)
 

Hanzou

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Fair comment.

I'll just clarify my pointless remark:

Firstly it's absolutely pointless for ME to discuss the efficacy of the techniques as I'm a WT student not a master, and have no specific knowledge of grappling/ground fighting.

Secondly I'm of the opinion that it's fairly pointless for anyone to discuss them as it invariably ends up as a "well If you do this I'll do that" "no you couldn't" or "that wouldn't work" type of argument, which really solves nothing.

I'd love to see the anti-grappling stuff properly tested as it were, and it's success or failure, but as it hasn't happened yet the jury is still out for me and will remain so until I either see it properly tested or actually test it myself.

You guys can of course continue to discuss it's efficacy all you want, and no doubt will :)

The fact that its been around for over 20 years, and no one has tested it, should speak volumes to anyone paying attention.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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we all should just learn grappling instead.

When a boxer tries to learn wrestling, it doesn't mean that boxer thinks the wrestling style is superior than the boxing style. It simply means that he wants to expand his knowledge in the "combat" art. There should be no shame for any striker to cross train the grappling art.

Most of the "anti-grappling" discussion are only on the "ground game" level. IMO, the term "anti-grappling" means the following:

1. prevent a clinch from happening,
2. take advantage on the clinch,
3. avoid to be taken down,
4. ground game skill.

We definitely should address issues in all 4 levels. But we should discuss the 1st level, 2nd level, 3rd level before we can move into the 4th level.

In order to prevent a clinch from happening (1st level), you have to have the knowledge not to let your opponent to get you into a situation such as:

- head lock,
- double over hook
- arm wrap,
- double under hook,
- bear hug,
- waist wrap,
- single leg,
- double legs,
- ...

Since all those skills may not exist in the striking art, you do need to learn the grappling art.

In order to be able to reach to level 2, level 3, or even level 4, you will need much more knowledge in the grappling art. So you have to learn "grappling" in order to be able to do "anti-grappling". The funniest thing is after you have learned the "grappling", the term "anti-grappling" will no longer have any meaning. If you are a communist, you will never use the term "anti-communist".

In the following Taiji clip, those "Taiji guys" don't consider themselves as pure strikers and that's for sure.

 
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Tony Dismukes

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Ask and ye shall receive :)


i have no idea what (if any) Mr. Rodriguez's BJJ qualifications are, but I will note that Mr. Obasi used what I would consider to be decent "anti-grappling" technique.

Of course, that might have something to do with the fact that Mr. Obasi has trained BJJ as well as Wing Chun.
 
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