Competition Judo and Sport Jiu-jitsu is not self defense!

Freestyler777

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I play judo, and I enjoy it very much, but I realize that throwing and submissions are not self-defense.

Essentially Karate/Muay Thai/Savate is the striking aspect of SD, and Wrestling is the grappling aspect of SD.

The guard is not very usable in real life (spoken like a true philosopher:soapbox:) Neither are submissions, like most arm and leg locks.

Even most kicks are of little use. Judo is a sport, the very best one if you ask me, and is not designed for self-defense. BJJ is a variant of Judo that focuses almost exclusively on submisison holds.

Gripping up with someone who is trying to punch you is akin to suicide, as is this post. Laying on your back is also stupid. So is going for a choke or armlock where you give up your mobility in order to attack the neck or a single joint of the opponent's body.

Wrestling is the foundation, or infrastructure, of combat, that's where most martial artists start out. Karate or Kickboxing is the essence of combat: striking with the hands, or sometimes with the leg.

I do not practice karate, nor do I wrestle anymore, so I think I can be fair and impartial. If I was biased, I would say that Judo is best, since that is what I train in!

I am not criticizing judo (my beloved sport) or BJJ ( a derivative of judo) I am just saying, these are sports, not SD. I think the brazilians are marketing geniuses, promoting a new style of judo that can beat other martial artists but is essentially nothing new at all.

Please don't lynch me, I believe my theory is somewhat accurate. Reply if interested.
 

Tez3

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Not going to lynch you! Your opinions are always going to be respected on here, people may disagree with you but not disrespect your right to a view on subjects.

I would disagree with you about one thing but I'm guessing it's not an aspect you wold have thought of to be fair. You say the guard isn't very usable but as a woman in a probable rape situation I'd find the guard very usable if I were put into it as it were!

Judo is the baby if you like of Juijitsu which is what BJJ is a derivative of, a bit simplistic I know. Depending on the situation locks, throws and submissions can be very useful for SD . I think there's just too many probable situations to cite here what will be useful and what won't. Just that as many have said before the more weapons you have the better it is.

We have a Brazilian BJJ coach, I wouldn't say he does it as a sport lol it's more like combat!
 
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Freestyler777

Freestyler777

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'sigh of relief' thank you for not lynching me. You always have positive input, not criticism, Tez.

The throws of judo are not self-defense. Submission from the guard could work in a SD situation, especially as rape prevention (a hundred years ago at the turn of the twentieth century, jiu-jitsu was primarily taught as rape prevention) but I think punching is the essence of combat, and it doesn't matter if you do it standing up, in the clinch, or on the ground. Punching is combat, which is why I refrain from combat or MMA or kickboxing. I don't want to hit or get hit by anyone. I much prefer the 'gentle art' of Judo, even though it is by no means self-defense (although there some SD aspects to it).

Judo is what keeps me happy, but I must remain humble, or I will fall into a false sense of confidence, which could be devestating (to me!).
 

zDom

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I'm not gonna lynch you, but you might want to lynch ME after this post :)

because I disagree with almost everything you said!

Really not trying to offend, I just see things differently

To wit:

I play judo, and I enjoy it very much, but I realize that throwing and submissions are not self-defense.

Before I started formal training, I was in a situation where I was getting sucker punched by about four different people. Every time I faced one, I'd get hit from another direction.

I ENDED that situation by grabbing, improvising a throw (this stunned him so he lay pretty still) and "submittting" him by grabbing his windpipe. Suddenly everybody backed off until the cops showed up a couple of minutes later.

In short, a throw outside of a dojo/dojant can pretty much take an attacker out of the fight. IMO, VERY effective self defense.

Submissions, on the other hand, I agree can leave you vulnerable to attack from someone else but then again, may indeed be appropriate in some self defense situations. Conflicts with a drunk friend in an otherwise friendly environment, for example, comes to mind: much better to pin and hold him then to pound him unconcious, no?


The guard is not very usable in real life (spoken like a true philosopher:soapbox:) Neither are submissions, like most arm and leg locks.

The guard saved my butt once in another self defense situation. I have no doubt that in that situation, they guy would have definately out-wrestled me had I not pulled him tightly into guard and then thumped on the back of his head to take the fight out of him. He was thicker, stronger and obviously had a preference for grappling as that was his method of attacking me no punching, just grabbing me.


Even most kicks are of little use.

Never had to use a kick in self defense, but I have no doubt the would be effective, given my experience in sparring newcomers to class ...

How you figure little use?


Judo is a sport, the very best one if you ask me, and is not designed for self-defense. BJJ is a variant of Judo that focuses almost exclusively on submisison holds.

a) I like the IDEA of Judo, but I think it needs some rule modifications. I once had a conversation with Bill "Superfoot" Wallace that went something like this:

"Judo is a stupid sport," he said.

"Yea?" I said. "Why's that?"

"Well, you practice falling, right? So you can get thrown without getting hurt?" he asked

"Well yea, we practice falling a LOT," I answered.

"So then they put you in this game when you do everything possible NOT to fall that way twist, turn, contort because if you DO fall properly, the other guy gets a full point and wins!" he said. "Consequently, people get hurt all the time."

It's something to think about.

Again, I LIKE the general idea of Judo competition. But I think it needs some rule modifications so you can fall correctly once thrown and not be penalized for it; or rather, not reward poor falling (or avoiding a correct fall) by not awarding the thrower his full point.

Anyway, not designed for self defense doesn't necessarily mean useless for self defense, but it could train in responses that might be detrimental in a self defense situation.


Gripping up with someone who is trying to punch you is akin to suicide, as is this post. Laying on your back is also stupid. So is going for a choke or armlock where you give up your mobility in order to attack the neck or a single joint of the opponent's body.

Well, actually being in close often gets you away from where the person can generate the most power in a punch.

But generally: on yer back is bad place to be (although it is better than on your face!) and a choke or armlock DOES give up mobility that could leave you vulnerable to attack from a second or third person ...

But then it depends on the situation. My theory on why BJJ is SO successful in Brazil is due to their culture: the "mano y mano" thing where people circle around and watch the two fight.

On the other hand, if you are talking about Southeast Missouri, then you would be 100 percent correct: almost every fight I have seen around here starts one on one and stays that way for all of about 5 seconds until somebody else jumps in as fast as they can get there.. nearly EVERY time.

It ALWAYS ends up a multiple attacker situation. Well not always, but nearly.


I am not criticizing judo (my beloved sport) or BJJ ( a derivative of judo) I am just saying, these are sports, not SD. I think the brazilians are marketing geniuses, promoting a new style of judo that can beat other martial artists but is essentially nothing new at all.

Sorry about my criticism of Judo. Truth is, I am DYING to play some but I figure I will be doing a lot of losing as once I feel my balance is gone and I'm being thown, I will fall. Winning a game, to me, is not as important as remaining uninjured.

I agree about the Brazillians being marketing geniuses: they have done a great job with their sport/art. Nothing new except the strong focus on newaza which, as mentioned above, makes perfect sense given what I have heard about their culture.

Cheers and I hope no offense was taken for disagreeing with you. Just thought I'd discuss with you my views on the above.
 

Tez3

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The 'problem' I have, well it's not a problem I guess lol, is that I can't speak from actual experience on SD like a lot of others. I've never actually been attacked so I don't know what I'd do! If I'm honest it does rather worry me. I've had a couple of situations where it looked as if an attack was going to happen and I remember hearing my instructors voice inside my head as if he were cornering me! I'm pretty sure I wouldn't freeze as I'm used to being hit and hurt also used to being taken down. (I try to land with my elbows down causing pain when I land on the other guy.)

My instructor is old time Judo ( he's karate as well but does MMA mostly now) which seems to have been a much nastier 'sport' than it is now! He'll quite happily take a guy down and do some move that ends with him sitting on his opponents head with his ankle across the guys throat! A big ouch lol! His view is to have a hold on the guy on the floor in such a way that if his mates come for you he can cause pain to their mate to discourage them. Of course if they aren't that goood mates he will use the body as a shield.

Freestyler if you fancy chatting to my instructor you can go on our website, we have a little forum where you can post or you can email him, he loves his judo! Though it does seem rougher than anyone elses lol!


www.shotaikai.co.uk
 
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Freestyler777

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Thank you for the link. I know that there are GREAT judo players and jiu-jitsu players out there, such as Gene Lebell or Sheldon Marr out there, who have toughness, athleticism, and strength (as you would expect any athlete in any combat sport to have). I am just saying the tactics of sport judo and sport jiu-jitsu is not all there is to combat.

My theory is wrestling is the main thing, but Chokes do work here and there, and striking with the hands is an essential element of SD.

I made the original post because i am shocked and dismayed at how people on certain 'other forums' take BJJ and MMA to be a revelation, when BJJ and MMA is essentially judo revamped for an uneducated consumer base. The shime-waza of judo (strangles) are extremely effective, and there is no need to pay a BJJ guy 3x as much money as an honest judo teacher (like my teacher, Tom, who also was a wrestler before judo) to learn the same techniques.

I train in Judo because I love the contact, meeting good people, staying in shape, and doing something productive.
 

Tez3

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I think you've pinpointed a problem common to a lot of MAs, kickboxing is another one that is hyped up as being for SD. Obviously it's fairly useful but there's people out there making money out of false promises.

I don't know a lot about wrestling, it's not nearly as big here as in the States. We have Gene Lebell's book with all the moves in which is also very funny!

I think having as many weapons in your armoury ie good stand up, ground skills, a fast talking tongue etc is the best thing. I don't think i know enough or am experienced enough to know whether ground skills or striking skills are better for SD.

We do MMA and there's more to it I think than just entertaining crowds and winning a competition. There is a challenge in there that makes it like physical chess, that's what makes it enjoyable to do, crowds too enjoy it and are becoming increasingly knowledgeable. It is however a sport and really shouldn't be hyped as being best for SD. It's a good tool in learning to defend yourself I think, being full contact.
 
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Freestyler777

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While we are talking hypothetically, I'd imagine that wrestling, both standing up and on the ground is very important, as is the shime-waza of judo.

One of my former clubmates at the judo dojo that I train at, a Russian Blak Belt who moved back a while ago, told me "Pins are easier to get, but easier to break out of, chokes are the most efficient way to end a fight"
He happened to have been a sombo wrestler as well as a judoka, as is the tradition in Russia.

You can see in that very interesting youtube video that is also posted in this general self-defense forum, there is a lot of wrestling, primarily standing up, and the bad guy didn't even react to being pepper sprayed, kneed in the groin, or having his nose smashed. The guy was obviously on drugs, and the cop is obviously a very brave man. He finally got the guy with a ma hadaka jime (front naked strangle, or guillotine) and once he got the suspect on the ground, then people rushed to help him. But you can't blame them, that was a very dangerous situation. I am glad that there are cops like that in America.

Normally, I'd imagine that pepper spray and knees to the groin work like a charm, but this guy was obviously on drugs. I am so glad the policeman won and was safe when everything ended.

Anway, my theory is wrestling and judo guys seem to me like authentic guys. All three of my judo teachers are former wrestlers, and they seem to have an aura of ruggedness and experience to them.

BTW, there are two styles of international wrestling, Freestyle (whole body) and Greco-Roman (upper body only). In America, we have the best wrestling style called 'collegiate' or 'american folkstyle'. It is essentially like freestyle, using both lower and upper body for takedowns, but the par-terre (matwork) is excellent. The top guy gets points for 'riding' the guy on bottom, and the bottom man get's points for 'escaping' and 'reversing'. It encourages a very aggressive, active kind of wrestling, as opposed to the international styles, where there is less mat wrestling, and people on bottom basically play defense until the referee intervenes and stands them up again. In FS and GR, escapes and reversals are de-emphasized.
 

Boomer

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I play judo, and I enjoy it very much, but I realize that throwing and submissions are not self-defense.

I'm gonna agree and disagree with you at the same time. Submissions are not self defense. But if you apply a lock in such a way that you can snap, crackle, or pop something in your opponent, I think that's pretty effective self defense right there. I was in an altercation many years ago where I broke my attackers arm pretty bad, and it ended the fight. Good thing too, cause I started puking right after it snapped....it was nasty.


I do appreciate the point you are trying to make...that martial sport doesn't = martial art. I'm forever saying: You DO what you TRAIN. If you train in throws, grappling etc, you will rely on that. If you train in pretty gymnastic kicking, expect to use it in your streetfights whether you do it willfully or not.
 
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Freestyler777

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That is pretty interesting that an armlock ended an altercation. I think strangles, like my russian friend told me, are more efficient, but if it worked and saved your life that is great!

But you have to admit that the 'choke' is the best submission, for SD? Imagine attempting an armlock or leglock against a crackhead like that guy in the youtube video? The cop did the right thing.

I thank you for the reply.
 

zDom

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Assuming nobody else is around to pound you while you apply it, blood chokes can be one of the most "gentle" ways of ending a fight in that, once they wake up (um.. IF they wake up ... some people just DON'T!) they shouldn't be any worse for the wear. Crushing a trachea, well: bad news there. Windpipe chokes NOT a good idea unless you are in a lethal force situation, IMO.

(Btw -- if I recall correctly, that is what got LEO in trouble with chokes and led to their falling out of favor as control technique -- too many misapplied chokes resulting in deaths from crushed tracheas: can anybody confirm this?)

And I think Boomer is 100% right: what is a "submission" in practice or the ring is usually a dislocation or break in self defense. A broken arm, wrist or ankle is seriously going to take the wind out of MOST attackers.

But then, I think this is a very serious reaction that I personally would reserve for a very serious attack. A punch may knock them out, bruise them up or cut their face, but they will be fine in a couple weeks. A dislocation -- popping an elbow out of joint, for example — may be an injury that will take years, even a lifetime to rehabilitate.

I just have to say (again, I know I've said it before...) : the scariest martial artist I have EVER met, the person I would LEAST like to face in unarmed combat, is a Judo (well, actually Yudo) grandmaster: Bong Yul Shin of the St. Louis area.

20-something years my senior, I would never, EVER want to piss that guy off :) I don't doubt his ability to defend himself against any person walking this earth, age, strength, size, fight record not withstanding.

Makes "the Gentle Way" seem like quite the ironic name for that art ;)
 
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Freestyler777

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I'm not a cop, but I have heard about and read on bjj.org a scientific article about how many fatalities the cops have done using hadaka jime (the rear naked strangle). They've accidentally killed many suspects.

This is just speculation, but wouldn't an armlock or leglock not be enough to take out a wild, drugged lunatic like that guy on the youtube video? A well done carotid artery strangle, by a well trained and sensitive judoka could strangle someone unconcious and then release him? It happens in judo contests all the time. But as stated earlier, judokas are more sensitive than police officers, who usually choke people to death! That is in no way a dis-respect to the police, they're heroes. I am just saying, police are not as sensitive as wrestlers/judoka.
 

still learning

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Hello, Yes the sport version of JUDO/Jiu-jitsu is for competitions.

Have you experience the STREET/fighing side of JUDO? Judo is a very effective martial art for street fighing....why because when you get in close and can grab the the other person? ...you can choose to throw them down gentle...or with force! ...and you don't have to guide them down too.

Most Judo schools do not teach "punching/kicking skills" till you reach Black belt. (over here anyway).

To believe JUDO is not good for street fighing? ....You better talk to your Sensi! Have them show you the other side of your art!

I'm sure you know how to punch and kick....human nature. When you get in close? .....you will have the advantage.

In martial arts...those with JUDO backgrounds become better martial artist in other arts too! NO two fights will be the same....there will be times both of you will be grabbing each other....here is where your JUDO skills will come in!

Everyone knows " off balance the attacker" you have the advantage!

Don;t : THROW AWAY YOUR JUDO! ..IT CAN BE MORE THAN YOU THINK!

There is two Sensi's who were working on their roofs and both fell off...both say they don;t remember how they land...but their JUDO skill save their lives.

JUDO is not a fallen art! Learn to get back up and train harder! ......... (both of my kids done High School judo training and competitons.)

One of their Sensi (5th degree from Kodakan) have taught them the STREET side of JUDO! You don't want to experience it!

Aloha, Judo is more than you think!
 
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Freestyler777

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I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

I definately will not 'throw away my judo'. It has brought me so much happiness for the past few years.

I'm a bit confused about which direction to take, in terms of martial arts. It seems like the more I ponder, the more confused I get.
 

bluemtn

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I agree that perhaps only using grappling or only striking, might not be greatly effective in certain situations; however, they can be very helpful! The more leverage you have, the better, but you have to realize that nothing will be the "best" for all situations. When you're trying to defend yourself from some idiot on the street, you never know what could happen.
 

Independent_TKD

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The throws of judo are not self-defense

Come on. If you have studied Judo for any amount of time, you must know that it is very effective in SD.

Fights in the street (and I've been in several) happen VERY fast. From my experiences, a typical unarmed thug will throw wild punches until they are gased. Or they will buull charge you like a football player or wrestler. Judo can work in each of these scenarios.

I've also been mugged at knife point. You know what I did? I gave the guy my watch and money. No throws, no roundhouse, no punches.

My advice: don't overthink your training.
 

rutherford

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When you throw somebody, you hit them with the whole Earth.

You also create space between the two of you.

Both are very good self-defense.
 

CuongNhuka

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Me thinks Freestyler has never heard of Masahiko Kimura.
 

tntma12

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I would have to agree that Judo and Jiu Jitsu can be quite effective in a SD situation. I feel though that any art, whether for sport or not, has good SD ability. If these arts were not able to be used in SD or "real" situations, they probably would not have been around as long as they have. Sure they may be more geared towards competition rather than SD, but they do offer many practicle applications as well.
 
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