Judo For Self-Defense On The Street?

WarriorMonk7

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Hello all.

I am new, so please be easy on me.

I'm thinking of rounding out my game a bit more for self-defense.

I've been looking at Judo because a lot of the throws lead to your opponent on the ground (with you standing and sometimes holding on to your opponent's arm).

This gives you a lot of possibilities. Groin kick, head kick, as well as a fast arm bar since you are holding on to the arm. (Of course, you could also just run away and avoid harm for both you and your attacker.)

Anyway, I remain skeptical of Judo. Why?

1. Judokas wear tough gis.

The gi in Judo is tough and arguably makes tossing your opponent a lot easier. Considering that your opponent may be wearing a flimsy t-shirt, you may not generate enough leverage and torque from someone's t-shirt for the throw to be effective. Thoughts?

2. Clinching with your opponent Judo-style will get you punched in the face.

Judo of course involves you holding on to your opponent's sleeve as well as their collar. This leaves your jaw exposed. Try throwing a guy when he is elbowing you in the face.

3. Judo nowadays is more of a sport than self-defense.

-

Is it perhaps best to avoid Judo? Is it perhaps better to focus on learning throws from kickboxing styles such as sweeps in Muay Thai and throws in Sanshou/Sanda?


BTW - please don't recommend BJJ over Judo. This is not a BJJ thread and I think BJJ is silly for self-defense - since both the full-guard and top mount positions expose you to groin shots.

(And these defenses are not great. --->
)

Let me know what you think!!
 
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Monkey Turned Wolf

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So first: you say you're rounding out your game. Do you currently have experience in a striking art? If so then yes a grappling art would help you round out defense.

As for judo in particular: Many judo clubs are heavily sport based. However, this is not all judo clubs, and various judo schools have a self-defense curriculum (if there is a judo school/club near you, ask them if they have one and that will give you a good idea of whether they are sport based or overall judo based). However, judo has a pretty steep learning curve, so if you are interested in immediate self-defense for whatever reason, it may not be the best option, but if you can stick it out a while, it can either teach you self-defense or round out your self defense.

As someone who came from striking and started judo, it has made me a lot more confident SD wise. My art does teach throws and sweeps, but the main result I saw from judo was takedown defense: When you are sparring people constantly who specialize in takedowns, you get good at defending them. Definitely helpful for SD when people who don't specialize in takedown/throws/sweeps attempt one of them.

Regarding BJJ: you likely don't know since you are new here, but the forum has strict anti-bashing rules about other styles. While I wouldn't recommend BJJ for SD, there are ways that it can be utilized, but it has to be done (in my opinion) by a school that also teaches some standup art, with BJJ being utilized if grappling occurs, and taught with an SD mindset rather than an MMA mindset or a sport BJJ mindset, which from my own experience seems to be pretty rare.
 

kuniggety

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There are folks that practice judo without a gi. While she did finally lose, Rhonda Roussey pulled off her judo pretty darn well in a non-gi setting.

Regarding your comments on BJJ: you seriously have no idea what you're talking about. Get into either of those positions with a half-way competent BJJ practitioner, try punching them in the groin, and see how well that works out for you. Seriously, it's not even possible. Unless you're born with a genetic abnormality, the testicles hang underneath/between your legs and not in the front of your body. Whether I'm in the mount (which is a superior fighting position in any art...ground n pound) or in closed guard (a specialty of BJJ), the testicles are sitting between me and the person I'm grappling with, i.e. They're not exposed. I admit that I could be punched in the penis, which would be quite painful, but not debilitating in any shape or form.

The Draculino video you posted has to do with someone reaching down to grab the testicles and not striking. I'm not sure why you're saying they're not good defenses. The main thing is you're setting yourself up for a triangle choke which he clearly demonstrates. He also demonstrates the guillotine choke for anyone foolish enough to put both hands down. It's BJJ 101 type stuff.

MT teaches a lot of trips and throws from the clinch and is a good option.
 
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WarriorMonk7

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There are folks that practice judo without a gi. While she did finally lose, Rhonda Roussey pulled off her judo pretty darn well in a non-gi setting.

Regarding your comments on BJJ: you seriously have no idea what you're talking about. Get into either of those positions with a half-way competent BJJ practitioner, try punching them in the groin, and see how well that works out for you. Seriously, it's not even possible. Unless you're born with a genetic abnormality, the testicles hang underneath/between your legs and not in the front of your body. Whether I'm in the mount (which is a superior fighting position in any art...ground n pound) or in closed guard (a specialty of BJJ), the testicles are sitting between me and the person I'm grappling with, i.e. They're not exposed. I admit that I could be punched in the penis, which would be quite painful, but not debilitating in any shape or form.

The Draculino video you posted has to do with someone reaching down to grab the testicles and not striking. I'm not sure why you're saying they're not good defenses. The main thing is you're setting yourself up for a triangle choke which he clearly demonstrates. He also demonstrates the guillotine choke for anyone foolish enough to put both hands down. It's BJJ 101 type stuff.

MT teaches a lot of trips and throws from the clinch and is a good option.
Okay then. Can you elaborate as to why groin shots would not would in BJJ?

Please be specific.
 
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WarriorMonk7

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So first: you say you're rounding out your game. Do you currently have experience in a striking art? If so then yes a grappling art would help you round out defense.

As for judo in particular: Many judo clubs are heavily sport based. However, this is not all judo clubs, and various judo schools have a self-defense curriculum (if there is a judo school/club near you, ask them if they have one and that will give you a good idea of whether they are sport based or overall judo based). However, judo has a pretty steep learning curve, so if you are interested in immediate self-defense for whatever reason, it may not be the best option, but if you can stick it out a while, it can either teach you self-defense or round out your self defense.

As someone who came from striking and started judo, it has made me a lot more confident SD wise. My art does teach throws and sweeps, but the main result I saw from judo was takedown defense: When you are sparring people constantly who specialize in takedowns, you get good at defending them. Definitely helpful for SD when people who don't specialize in takedown/throws/sweeps attempt one of them.

Regarding BJJ: you likely don't know since you are new here, but the forum has strict anti-bashing rules about other styles. While I wouldn't recommend BJJ for SD, there are ways that it can be utilized, but it has to be done (in my opinion) by a school that also teaches some standup art, with BJJ being utilized if grappling occurs, and taught with an SD mindset rather than an MMA mindset or a sport BJJ mindset, which from my own experience seems to be pretty rare.
Thank you!!
 

JR 137

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If you're concerned about the reliance of the gi to throw in judo, perhaps try wrestling? Greco-Roman is very throw heavy, and grabbing the uniform to execute anything is illegal. Folk Style (scholastic and collegiate in the US) and Freestyle also have a lot of throws.

I wrestled from 3rd grade through high school, and coached it. It's not the be all, end all for self defense as people claim it to be sometimes.

Just a thought. I have no judo experience to be able to say if it's easily adaptable to no gi or not. A lot of the sleeve cuff grabs seem like they'd be almost just as easily done by grabbing the wrist instead, but I haven't tried judo to be able to say so.

The biggest benefit to throwing arts (so to speak) isn't the throws themselves IMO, it's the principles. Learning balance in regards to pushing and pulling, when to allow your opponent to push you to take advantage of it, when to push back, how to bend without breaking, etc. Wrestling and judo will teach that very well IMO; perhaps in different ways, but the principle is the same. The principle is far more important than the actual throws, because if you nail down when and how to move, you'll be able to throw practically whenever and however you want.

As far as I know, judo takes quite some time before you really get into throwing. If you're not patient and want to get into it quicker and move on from it, wrestling may be your better bet, and they don't spend all that time learning falling and rolling that judo reputedly does. Again, no judo experience, so that's all conjecture on my part.

I also haven't tried BJJ, but what seems to be and what actually is could in fact be quite different.
 

Buka

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Welcome to Martial Talk, WarriorMonk.

It's hard to suggest things to round out another's game without first knowing the game or it's level.
What do you train, bro?
 

Chris Parker

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Hello all.

Hi there.

I am new, so please be easy on me.

Hmm this will be gentle by my reckoning so take it as it is

I'm thinking of rounding out my game a bit more for self-defence.

Okay. The obvious question (as brought up by Buka) is what you're currently training for "self defence", and why you think it's not sufficient? That can lead us into all kinds of interesting areas regarding what self defence actually is, what the requirements really are (physically and combatively, much less is needed than most think), but we'll start with what your actual training background (past and current) is.

I've been looking at Judo because a lot of the throws lead to your opponent on the ground (with you standing and sometimes holding on to your opponent's arm).

Er okay and exactly how did you come to that conclusion? I mean, I'm assuming you're then ruling out the sutemi waza, ne waza and so forth, yeah? Including the katame no kata that was one of the very first formalised kata sets that Kano came up with to teach his art? And how does Judo's throwing methods then differ from any other throwing art's methods? Are other arts only able to throw someone so they're kneeling? Or still standing themselves?

This gives you a lot of possibilities. Groin kick, head kick, as well as a fast arm bar since you are holding on to the arm. (Of course, you could also just run away and avoid harm for both you and your attacker.)

Yeah getting back to what "self defence" actually is head kicks are largely frowned upon, so maybe get out of that headspace?

Anyway, I remain skeptical of Judo. Why?

Good question, considering the impression you have so far

1. Judokas wear tough gis.

The gi in Judo is tough and arguably makes tossing your opponent a lot easier. Considering that your opponent may be wearing a flimsy t-shirt, you may not generate enough leverage and torque from someone's t-shirt for the throw to be effective. Thoughts?

Judo-ka wear tough gi so they don't rip their work shirts in practice. In an actual application, of course, you'd likely be unconcerned with the state of the other guys clothing. For the record, though, the clothing has no real bearing on "leverage" or "torque" in throwing arts my arts range from being able to throw someone in armour through to a light t-shirt/no shirt at all

2. Clinching with your opponent Judo-style will get you punched in the face.

Being that close to anyone (in a combative situation/fight) can see you punched in the face but a proper judo kumi-te grip is actually pretty good defence against being hit. You're controlling both sides of the opponent (both arms), and have quite a good amount of sensitivity built in to "feel" what your opponent is doing and where they're moving.

Judo of course involves you holding on to your opponent's sleeve as well as their collar. This leaves your jaw exposed. Try throwing a guy when he is elbowing you in the face.

Frankly, good luck elbowing me from a proper grip. On the other hand, elbowing the guy I'm about to throw that's relatively easy (in other words, you seem rather unaware of the actual position of the arms here, on both sides of course, judo-ka train to work with their personally preferred grips, so there's no single grip you can define as the only one used in Judo).

3. Judo nowadays is more of a sport than self-defence.

Okay.

Is it perhaps best to avoid Judo? Is it perhaps better to focus on learning throws from kickboxing styles such as sweeps in Muay Thai and throws in Sanshou/Sanda?


So one of the reasons you're "skeptical" about Judo is that "nowadays (it's) more of a sport than self-defence", but you then look to kickboxing (which is purely a sporting competitive format), muay Thai (a competitive sporting system) and Sanshou/Sanda (a competitive form of Chinese kickboxing) as examples for something better and then look to them for takedown and throwing methods, even though they are all primarily striking systems with some rudimentary takedowns at best (none in most forms of kickboxing at all)?

BTW - please don't recommend BJJ over Judo. This is not a BJJ thread and I think BJJ is silly for self-defense - since both the full-guard and top mount positions expose you to groin shots.

(And these defenses are not great. --->
)

And again, you know all of this based on what? What experience with BJJ do you have to say it's "silly" for self defence? How are you able to assess the vulnerability of two of the most stable and safest positions (in the context of ground work which also features pretty well in Judo, by the way I mean you are aware of where BJJ comes from, yeah?) in ground fighting? Or the viability of what are honestly pretty decent actions in the clip you posted?

Let me know what you think!!

I'll be honest. What I think is that you have no experience with Judo no experience with BJJ no experience with much of the realities of fighting, self defence, and more but, based on what you think you know (which isn't much), you've made up your own mind already. So, let's take it back a step or three.

You mention that you are looking to "round out your game for self defence" okay. What exactly are you looking for? Why were you looking at Judo in the first place? Once we look at that, then we might be able to get somewhere but right now, you're already convinced of what you think you know, and have reasoned your way to whatever conclusion you had come up with. And that means you'll have two options either continue to believe what you think you know, and justify your perceptions the way you have in which case nothing we say can or will change that or you recognise that you're coming from a position where you're not quite really in a position to make such an assessment, and we can look at what might suit you best.
 

Bill Mattocks

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I'm not going to offer any comments on judo or the other styles mentioned. But I will offer an observation or two.

"Hi, folks! I don't know anything about X, but I was thinking about learning it. However, I know this fact and that fact and the other thing about that style I know nothing about, so I'm rejecting it. Argue me out of it. And while you're at it, recommend a style for me that isn't style Y, which is also a style I know nothing about except that I know all about it and I don't like it. Maybe style Z, except that even though I know nothing about that, I also have objections to it based on the things I think maybe I heard a guy say once. And here's some videos that prove all of that."

Now tell me why I'd want to get involved in that. There's no room in your question for an answer that didn't come from your framework of error.
 

Tony Dismukes

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I'm thinking of rounding out my game a bit more for self-defense.

What do you currently train in, that you feel needs rounding out?

(I'm going to, for now, avoid the whole derail of what you mean by "self-defense", since that opens up a great big can of worms that we've discussed at length on this forum in multiple threads.)

Anyway, I remain skeptical of Judo.

Judo has plenty of applicability for fighting in a non-sport context. It is most commonly taught in a sport setting, so you need to make some adjustments if you want to use it in a context where people might be punching you. Those adjustments are relatively simple though, especially if you have some striking experience to work with.

Is it perhaps better to focus on learning throws from kickboxing styles such as sweeps in Muay Thai and throws in Sanshou/Sanda?

Muay Thai has a better takedown game than most people realize. However it's hard to find places outside of Thailand where that aspect of the art is taught and trained to any great depth. Not saying they don't exist, but if you randomly select a Muay Thai gym in whatever city you happen to live in, the statistical odds are that they won't emphasize that part of the curriculum.

As far as Sanda/Sanshou goes, unless you live in certain areas you may have a hard time finding a school which teaches it at all, let alone one that is good with the takedowns.

BJJ is silly for self-defense - since both the full-guard and top mount positions expose you to groin shots.
Hah! No. Just, no. If you live anywhere near where I'm at, you are welcome to come by the gym and try to groin shot me from under my mount or in my guard. If you can accomplish anything more than mildly annoying me with the attempt, I will give you $50.

If you're not in the vicinity of Lexington, talk to an experienced BJJ practitioner in your area and ask them to show you what happened if you try to hit their groin from those positions. Fair warning - get their agreement before trying the experiment. If you try to pull that as a surprise move while rolling you may end up seriously hurt.
 

Ironbear24

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Judo is a lot of fun but it won't take you "rounded" as you put it. Judo typically has zero strikes involved and doesn't often teach how to block strikes. It is essentially all take downs and wrestling techniques.

This is why Judo is often along side another art, but this is not to say Judo alone is bad. Judo alone can be used to protect yourself against many types of attackers. Just close the distance and make that takedown count. A slam to the concrete will hurt anyone.
 

Dirty Dog

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Judo is a lot of fun but it won't take you "rounded" as you put it. Judo typically has zero strikes involved and doesn't often teach how to block strikes. It is essentially all take downs and wrestling techniques.

Oh my. You've not really done any extensive training in Judo, have you?

I'm just going to sit over here, and see what, say, @elder999 has to say...
 

Ironbear24

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Oh my. You've not really done any extensive training in Judo, have you?

I'm just going to sit over here, and see what, say, @elder999 has to say...

I have never been to a dojo that teaches exclusively only Judo. My Judo experience comes from kenpo where the sifu showed both styles together. If I ever say anything stupid I welcome all to come correct me so I no longer say stupid things.

Or the least, I will say stupid things less often .
 

Ironbear24

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BJJ and JJ is good for self defense but keep in mind that this is not ideal for many street situations. If you are in a bar do you want to take the attacker to the floor? That handles him but what about the guys girlfriend and his two other friends?

I guarantee you they are going to be hitting you while you have the other guy on the floor or any sort of hold. The style is great at one on one vs someone who has minimal or no grappling experience, if they know good escapes and have a history of a grappling art than you could be in serious trouble if you are not excellent at it.
 

Dirty Dog

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I have never been to a dojo that teaches exclusively only Judo. My Judo experience comes from kenpo where the sifu showed both styles together. If I ever say anything stupid I welcome all to come correct me so I no longer say stupid things.

Or the least, I will say stupid things less often .

Less often is all most of us can hope for.

It's just one of those things that gets brought up periodically. People who have never trained Judo assume that because Judo, as used in tournaments, doesn't involve strikes that Judo, as it is taught, doesn't include strikes.
 

Bill Mattocks

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Or the least, I will say stupid things less often .

Something I also struggle with daily. As much as I have a nasty tendency to pounce on things I see others do, so to am I deserving of a good pummeling for similar things myself.
 

Hanzou

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BJJ and JJ is good for self defense but keep in mind that this is not ideal for many street situations. If you are in a bar do you want to take the attacker to the floor? That handles him but what about the guys girlfriend and his two other friends?

Self defense based Bjj includes throws, chokes, and locks where you're not following your assailant to the ground. Additionally, those throws utilize the body's natural handles instead of reliance on lapels and sleeves. Judo's sport base will give you ridiculous stamina, balance, and serious gripping power. It'll also teach you how to fall, which can be critical in a nasty situation.

There are few things worse to go up against than a person who is highly trained in both Judo and Bjj.

I guarantee you they are going to be hitting you while you have the other guy on the floor or any sort of hold.

And what if he is on top of you and you have zero ground fighting experience?
 
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Hanzou

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Okay then. Can you elaborate as to why groin shots would not would in BJJ?

Please be specific.

Groin shots while in (closed) Guard?

Simply put, your posture is broken, and you're completely in the Bjj exponent's territory. Or as we say in my gym "You f______ed" up a long time ago!". You're going to have to fight in order to restore your posture, and that Bjj exponent can attack you at any point while you're trying to restore that posture. Assuming that you have no clue what you're doing since you view Bjj as "silly", you're going to be opening yourself up to locks, sweeps, and chokes without even realizing it.

Considering that this person was good enough to get you into closed guard, there's a pretty good chance that they're going to be good enough to destroy you before you get the first groin strike off.
 

elder999

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Anyway, I remain skeptical of Judo. Why?

1. Judokas wear tough gis.

The gi in Judo is tough and arguably makes tossing your opponent a lot easier. Considering that your opponent may be wearing a flimsy t-shirt, you may not generate enough leverage and torque from someone's t-shirt for the throw to be effective. Thoughts?

I've thrown people wearing T-shirts. I've thrown people wearing no shirt .I've thrown people wearing sports coats or suits.

Most judo throws will work without the judogi; with the right training and practice, this concern of yours is not valid.

2. Clinching with your opponent Judo-style will get you punched in the face.

Judo of course involves you holding on to your opponent's sleeve as well as their collar. This leaves your jaw exposed. Try throwing a guy when he is elbowing you in the face.

Erm...practice certainly does. Competition can. The kumikata position is not necessary to perform judo throws and locks, and most of the throws work better as a defense against a strike, With the right training and practice, this concern of yours is not valid.


3. Judo nowadays is more of a sport than self-defense.

-

Is it perhaps best to avoid Judo?kl;'

This is a valid concern: what is taught as judo is sometimes so geared towards competition that it's more combative aspects are lost,

Fact is, most of the throws have a strike that is integral to them-though they are not always taught this way.



Let me know what you think!!

I think you should train more.:rolleyes:
 

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