The case for Judo as a self-defense system...

gpseymour

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Oh, actually I do. I challenged your bias and you got butt-hurt from your first post instead of approaching it with the intention of a friendly discussion. Which is what this board is suppose to be about. Which, as a moderator, your suppose to not only adhere to, but encourage. Perhaps you need to reconsider the mod hat. In that I'm both a mod and an admin on various other boards, of various topics, you're not doing it well.
Actually, no. See, I'm not a Judo guy (I trained in it years ago, and used it effectively). I just happen to know too many people who've made effective use of it to buy into a couple of quotes by someone with an obvious bias against sport arts. You've demonstrated nothing, given no real evidence, and claimed "truth". That's pretty shoddy.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Most of it actually. Look up Gene Lebelle... he was a Judo guy who took a lot of challenge matches with different arts, and handled them quite well... including guys who could punch. While I am not a fan of Ronda Rousy, she went 12 and 0 in MMA, lots of fights in the UFC against gals that could punch. They eventually got her... but at the higher levels of MMA, they are going to give anyone problems. Also Karo Parisyan did well as a Judo player in MMA. I know Royce Gracie is bjj, but he won 3 of the first 4 tournaments (these tournaments took place in one night) and then went 30 minutes with Ken Shamrock, before he took a significant punch to the face. I remember the commentator saying "Now we will see if Royce can take a punch." Judo done well, does not give you much time to punch. Your first punch better be good against a Judo player, because you might not get another chance... and his throw is good.
But you still have not indicated which part of the Judo training can be used to deal with the fist flying situation.

In Chinese wrestling, we use rhino guard, zombie arm, double spears strategy, and octopus strategy to deal with incoming fists. What does Judo use?
 
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Kong Soo Do

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Actually, no. See, I'm not a Judo guy (I trained in it years ago, and used it effectively). I just happen to know too many people who've made effective use of it to buy into a couple of quotes by someone with an obvious bias against sport arts. You've demonstrated nothing, given no real evidence, and claimed "truth". That's pretty shoddy.

Again, you're not a very good moderator. You came off like a jerk from post one. If you disagreed with me, you SHOULD have asked for additional information, additional clarification, additional information. That would have promoted a more indepth discussion. As it is now, you're mind is closed and your bias has taken hold of rational thought. To bad, it could have been a much better conversation.
 

drop bear

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. You don't go to the ground on purpose in a SD situation unless the area is controlled, the perp is controlled and ready to be cuffed.

Wouldn't it be nice to be able to manipulate the forces of the universe to help you fight?

If we can shoot lightning bolts or create nuclear explosions. But sadly we can't right?

Wrong.

Gravity is the only one of the universal forces we can use in a fight. So why not make them fight against your weight.

It's a superpower.
 

gpseymour

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Again, you're not a very good moderator. You came off like a jerk from post one. If you disagreed with me, you SHOULD have asked for additional information, additional clarification, additional information. That would have promoted a more indepth discussion. As it is now, you're mind is closed and your bias has taken hold of rational thought. To bad, it could have been a much better conversation.
Perhaps. But you made two posts in quick succession claiming two arts with a history of effective SD use aren't good for SD. And with far too much confidence in your own statements (which still seem to be largely based on a couple of quotes). I didn't care for your approach, and responded.
 

gpseymour

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Wouldn't it be nice to be able to manipulate the forces of the universe to help you fight?

If we can shoot lightning bolts or create nuclear explosions. But sadly we can't right?

Wrong.

Gravity is the only one of the universal forces we can use in a fight. So why not make them fight against your weight.

It's a superpower.
I'm not a fan of fighting on the ground, but sometimes that's a better choice even for those of us who don't like it.
 

drop bear

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Most of it actually. Look up Gene Lebelle... he was a Judo guy who took a lot of challenge matches with different arts, and handled them quite well... including guys who could punch. While I am not a fan of Ronda Rousy, she went 12 and 0 in MMA, lots of fights in the UFC against gals that could punch. They eventually got her... but at the higher levels of MMA, they are going to give anyone problems. Also Karo Parisyan did well as a Judo player in MMA. I know Royce Gracie is bjj, but he won 3 of the first 4 tournaments (these tournaments took place in one night) and then went 30 minutes with Ken Shamrock, before he took a significant punch to the face. I remember the commentator saying "Now we will see if Royce can take a punch." Judo done well, does not give you much time to punch. Your first punch better be good against a Judo player, because you might not get another chance... and his throw is good.

One of our girls against a Judo Olympian.
 

wab25

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Someone said something like:
Don't train in a controlled, artificial environment, on soft and dry mats, with a single opponent that has agreed to abide by a rule set.
I was pointing out how the first two "better than Judo" systems listed... did exactly those things. Care to guess where I was the first time I did blindfolded randori? (hint: a Judo mat, taking a Judo class)

Or more accurately, YT provides you with a short clip, which you have no idea of the background, and then force it to fit your pre-conceived bias.
You are the one bringing up the idea that you cannot use Judo or BJJ on the streets because they are not wearing a gi to grab or on a well lit soft mat. What the youtube clips show, are different real world situations, where real world people apply their Judo techniques... that work and are effective and even recognizable... without a gi or mat or lighting or a controlled environment. I don't need to know which guy was the good guy and which was the bad guy or if he was taking his lunch money or made a bad mamma joke to see that the training was successfully used out in the real world.
 

Headhunter

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Perhaps. But you made two posts in quick succession claiming two arts with a history of effective SD use aren't good for SD. And with far too much confidence in your own statements (which still seem to be largely based on a couple of quotes). I didn't care for your approach, and responded.
It's an opinion...he's entitled to his opinion just as you are
 

drop bear

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I'm not a fan of fighting on the ground, but sometimes that's a better choice even for those of us who don't like it.

I have never understood the argument as it gets presented. It is as if the people who make the "Never go to the ground" comment don't understand how fighting works.

Yes you can be sucker punched on the ground.( I have been sucker punched on the ground.) But you can also be sucker punched standing up.
 

gpseymour

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I have never understood the argument as it gets presented. It is as if the people who make the "Never go to the ground" comment don't understand how fighting works.

Yes you can be sucker punched on the ground.( I have been sucker punched on the ground.) But you can also be sucker punched standing up.
Agree. There are disadvantages to the ground in some circumstances. We could also name some disadvantages to staying standing under some circumstances.
 

Kong Soo Do

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No 'perhaps' about it. You did not espouse the characteristics of a good moderator. Plain and simple. And you continued in it and now your making excuses;

But you made two posts in quick succession...

So? I haven't been by this board in a while and saw two threads that were of interest to me, in which I have experience and which I have an opinion.

...claiming two arts with a history of effective SD use aren't good for SD.

And in my professional opinion, they are DON'T have a history of effective SD and ARE NOT good for SD. And last I checked, I'm entitled to my opinion and allowed to express it. And I did so in a candid manner based upon my experience.

And with far too much confidence in your own statements (which still seem to be largely based on a couple of quotes).

And who are you to judge? If I didn't have confidence in something I wouldn't post. And as a matter of fact, I DO have confidence in my statements because I HAVE studied WWII combatives and the men who formulated it. And two of them DID have high level training in Judo and DID make the statement I quoted. It isn't a secret, it's history. From the Journal of Asian Martial Arts for one source of confirmation. And I DO know Royce when he taught at SEPSI (because I taught there as well). And I know the history of why he no longer teaches there i.e. it was not an effective training course for L.E. and that's fact.

I didn't care for your approach, and responded.

I am not responsible for how you read or take a post. I posted factually, candidly and honestly. It's been a while since I've been here, but that used to be appreciated going all the way back to the beginning of this board (when I first joined).
 

gpseymour

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I posted factually
This is where I have a problem with your posts. You claim you are being factual. You are asserting an opinion. One you've not supported with any significant evidence. And when others pointed out evidence to the contrary, you just dismiss it. I don't let that slide.
 

wab25

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But you still have not indicated which part of the Judo training can deal with the fist flying situation.
You are asking a very wide open question. Once the Judo guy grabs you, his aim is to take your balance. Once he has taken your balance, your flying fist won't do much... there is no structure or power behind it. From that point on, he will throw you, pin you and submit or choke you out. Unless you can escape, your flying fist will be ineffective. Their entire curriculum is based on taking balance, throwing, pinning and submitting without allowing the opponent out. So, pretty much all of Judo prevents the flying fist situation. This of course means that it has to be done right. Thats the challenge for all arts. Do your zombie arms wrong, and you get punched. Do your rhino guard wrong... you get punched.
In Chinese wrestling, we use rhino guard, zombie arm, double spears strategy, and octopus strategy to deal with incoming fists. What does Judo use?
You are probably talking about the entering strategy. Judo practices quick entering strategy. They fight over getting a grip on the lapel. In Judo, you want to grab their lapel, and prevent yours from being grabbed. Much of this can translate to preventing straight punches pretty easily. For the round punches, they move in closer. But the biggest defense is that they close too fast and stay too close to be punched. Again, ideally. But to defeat that with punches, means to maintain your distance... which also needs to be done correctly. Now, you have two fighters trying to make the other make a mistake. Its not which art is better, its which fighter is better, on that occurrence.
 

drop bear

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Wow, Bec did an amazing job with that early arm bar escape. That looked to be over right after they got to the ground.

Yeah. There was a focus on being able to stand up in that camp.
 

drop bear

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Agree. There are disadvantages to the ground in some circumstances. We could also name some disadvantages to staying standing under some circumstances.

It is like any defense to anything. You are looking at risk vs reward to what is a dynamic puzzle.

What I think people don't factor in is the speed in which fights happen. So you can't really be expected to be eating punches from one guy and keeping of who his potential allies are.
 

Kong Soo Do

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This is where I have a problem with your posts. You claim you are being factual.

Then you should have asked for confirmation. I can get you the volume and page number of the article in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts as one source for O'Neill's position. That would have continued this conversation along an entirely different path, which is the purpose of this board.

I don't let that slide.

And you acted in a way unbecoming of a moderator. I don't let that slide either. You chose to pop of with an attitude from the get-go instead of looking for a more in-depth discussion.
 
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