Multiple opponenets

[tkizzle05]

I wanted to know if there was a martial arts form that's practical and deals with fighting Multiple opponents efficiently. I also wanted to know how to attain energy power. Meaning incorporating so much energy into my fist that it devastates an opponent. I want to train in a deadly art, something thats "for real" something I would use in actual street combat, but still an art. i really need to build up my energy though as far as CHI, I want to learn how to use that for power. THanks

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh boy. While certain arts may have an approach that is more applicable to groups, there is no "best" art around. Pick one, and stick with it, you'll find that most can give you an answer that way. With regard to your second comment (building enough power in your fist to "devastate" an opponent)... watch less films, and join a school.

 

[K-man]

I wanted to know if there was a martial arts form that's practical and deals with fighting Multiple opponents efficiently. I also wanted to know how to attain energy power. Meaning incorporating so much energy into my fist that it devastates an opponent. I want to train in a deadly art, something thats "for real" something I would use in actual street combat, but still an art. i really need to build up my energy though as far as CHI, I want to learn how to use that for power. THanks

Without doubt the style you need is Llap Gosh.

http://www.llapgoch.org.uk/

There is really nothing like it to match your requirements. :bangahead:

 

[Chris Parker]

(Psst... Russ! Advisory Board section mate, we're meant to be serious in here... but agreed).

 

[Jenna]

Without doubt the style you need is Llap Gosh.

http://www.llapgoch.org.uk/

There is really nothing like it to match your requirements. :bangahead:

Well now I would argue with you on the effectiveness of the Llap Goch. I mean things get a little weird once you are about halfway across the Severn Bridge

In all seriousness though, since this is for serious people only, I would suggest in the case of the OP moving in the direction of something that traces better the dynamics of the stealth approach and invest in THIS instead.

 

[Chris Parker]

Guys! Serious thread! Serious forum! Serious answers!

Oh, hell, go for it. I tried....

Might I recommend Ekky-Thump for the weaponry component?

 

[MJS]

I wanted to know if there was a martial arts form that's practical and deals with fighting Multiple opponents efficiently. I also wanted to know how to attain energy power. Meaning incorporating so much energy into my fist that it devastates an opponent. I want to train in a deadly art, something thats "for real" something I would use in actual street combat, but still an art. i really need to build up my energy though as far as CHI, I want to learn how to use that for power. THanks

Some arts may deal with multiples better than others, however, its not always necessarily the art, but the person training the art. As for combat effectiveness...again, any art has the potential, but again, it all comes down to how each person trains. As for the chi stuff...well, don't buy into that too much.

It seems like you're looking for 1 art that has all the answers, 1 art that is better than the rest, 1 art that has the magical solution. Let me know when you find it, because after 20+ years of training, I've yet to find "THE" 1 art. Sorry, I dont mean to take the wind from your sail, but there is no 1 size fits all solution.

However, going on just what your post said, I'd look for the following:

Kajukenbo
Krav Maga

I would be cautious about the Krav Maga though. There, unfortunately, is alot of BS out there.

 

[Cyriacus]

Training for Multiple Opponents is present in many Systems. Whether or not its a focus is another matter. I recommend finding as many Self Defense Outlets and Martial Arts Schools as You can in Your Area, and heading down. Ask them if They focus on Power or Speed, and if They do Multiple Attacker work. If Their answers are Power and Yes, then Youve just met Your description. Or at least, the sensible parts of it

 

[tkizzle05]

Thanks for the replies, all of them .

 

[oaktree]

Hi Tkizzle you may want to look at Baguazhang. Baguazhang was used as a body guard art because of the ability to move in circles and change directions making it very good at dealing with multiple opponents.

Baguazhang does deal with Qi and building up strength. It is as street effective as you make it.

 

[lklawson]

Sure.

Any art that includes Boxing/Striking, Grappling, Weapons, and/or Firearms.

I realize that this seems like a vague, overgeneralized answer, but then again, it matches the question.

The problem is that adding additional opponents isn't just increasing the danger linearly, it increases it exponentially. This is why multiple opponents is often considered "Deadly Force" legally.

There is no "good answer" (never mind "best answer") for a single person dealing with multiples. The "best" solution is to have multiples of your own on your side to match (or exceed). Failing that, force multipliers, such as weapons, are the "best" bet. Failing that, there are any number of different strategies, all with their advantages and disadvantages.

I've seen this question a lot over the years and I've come to conclude that the question is usually either ill formed for what the questioner is really asking, ill thought out, or made from excusable ignorance (not trying to offend here).

In some ways, it's kinda like asking, "What's better, Ford or Chevy?"

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Instructor]

I think some styles give multiple attackers more thought than others. For example the sporting styles are largely one on one so probably not applicable. My list for multiple attackers would be (and in no particular order).

Hapkido
Krav Maga
Aikido
Aiki-Jujutsu
Parkour ( as in, just get the heck out of there)

 

[Bill Mattocks]

With all due respect, there is no good answer for the question. I understand where such questions come from; it's the same thing as asking "which car is best" or "which religion is best" or "which kind of house is best?" The question can only be answered with another question, such as 'for what'? Sports cars are good for one thing, dump trucks for another.

With regard to the reason you gave, that can only lead to raised eyebrows among some. You probably don't realize it, but some will think you're looking for 'powers' that exist only in comic books and anime. While 'chi' is a subject of debate, good body mechanics allow martial artists to deliver powerful blows that many attribute to chi. However, one does not seek that in the sense of seeking to develop devastating power. It's like joining the military because you hope to be able to kill some people. One might have to do so, but it's generally not the reason people join. Does that make sense?

If someone came to me and asked me about how I perceive 'chi' as working or how good body mechanics allow me to throw a powerful punch, I might talk about it or demonstrate it, but if they asked so that they could be 'devastating', I'd probably choose not to. Wrong reason, IMHO.

That said, I am not a martial arts expert, only a student. This is simply my opinion. Welcome to MT, hope you enjoy your stay here.

 

[Rich Parsons]

As an Adviser to this site, welcome. It is pretty friendly and filled with lots of people who can help as you can see by the replies.

Also note that many here look for then on fantastic approach to their training and to help people. That being said internal energy is not fantastic, yet you need to train a while with qualified people to trurly understand it.

Now to your comments and qustions.

I wanted to know if there was a martial arts form that's practical and deals with fighting Multiple opponents efficiently.

Yes there are many forms. People feel comfortable with their own systems as they have knowledge in them and will usually reccommend them. You should read all the answers and look into the responses and do some follow up research on your own.

I know people that train TKD in self defense and require multiple opponent defense training and not just sparring one on one.
I know people in the FMA's (myself included) who teach and train for multiple people.
I know others in other systems as well. I just wanted to point out that there is more than one solution to this question.

Also see below for some insight into multiple training.

I also wanted to know how to attain energy power.

Work, a form of energy, is force times distance.

F*ds = 0.5m(V^2) -0.2m((V')^2)

I like the idea of just looking at F = ma or Force is equal to Mass times Acceleration. Beside F = MA is clsoe to FMA for Filipino MArtial Arts

This means that you can throw you arm as fast as you want and when it hits it will have the mass of your hand and part of your arm if you are jsut throwing it out there.

If you are using proper body techniques (varies in teaching style form system to system ) you can develop a good frame and tie you body into the equation as well. This gives you a lot more m or mass with a good amount of a and your force increases.

Good solo training systems like boxing to any other martial art can teach you this, if you have a qualified instructor who understands it themselves.

Meaning incorporating so much energy into my fist that it devastates an opponent.

Just read the following. Do not feel like you need to asnwer.

This question wants to to ask:
Why do you want to devastate an opponent?
Is it because you want to hurt people?
Is it because you are being hurt yourself and you want to get revenge or justice?
Is it just COOL?

***

Good body mechanic will generate good power and with that you can hit properly.

I want to train in a deadly art, something thats "for real" something I would use in actual street combat, but still an art.

Why Deadly? Cool factor? Or because you need it?

I understand training for self defense. It is a good goal. I support that goal. I do not support training to go beat up homeless people or helpless people to show you are stronger. So look for a qualified instructor in your area that concentrates on self defense.

Also you may need to get involved with one school to ask questions of others who have trained about the closed schools. The ones that take people by referrence only and are taught out of garages by qualified instructors. They are clsoed not for the cool factor or beause they are "d34d7y", but because they want to train people and do it one on one or in small numbers. You may find Filipino or Chinese systems like this.

As for real, almost all will say it was for real at one point in their history of the art. Look around and watch classes and learn what you like and do not like.

As for street combat, I have to ask again why? Are you a bouncer? Are you looking to be a first repsonder?
Street combat works a lot like this. Two people are looking to square off. A crowd gathers around. A friend of one hits the guy from behind or shoves him into his friend and then the multiple beating begins. Sometimes the crowd gets involved as well.

The best way to handle that. Do not be there. Walk away. Stay awa from bad parts of town or bad locations. If you are there and alone, keep moving and try to stay unengaged for as long as possible. If you have friends use them and all together you all leave in safety.

Or the street fights are drive by shootings. Not much to do about dodging a bullet.

i really need to build up my energy though as far as CHI, I want to learn how to use that for power. THanks

If you are afer CHI, then look into systems that work on that.



Also note that many times any martial may teach you against one opponent. It reduces the variables while yuo are learning. It allows you to learn the basics and good fundamentals and good body / foot work which if you do not have will only make things worse against multiple opponents.


Good Luck in your choice

 

[tkizzle05]

I appreciate the humorous and serious answers equally. ^_^ I want to have all the tools necessary for a "just in case" scenario. I have a wife and kids, and lets say we are out walking and a group of guys try to mug us or something, I want to be equipped and prepared for SUCH situations. This goes beyond the dojo or gym. As for Ki/Chi, I want to hone my internal energy and add that to my external blows. I don't believe in wasting punches, so lets say I was jumped and I had to fend off 3-5 guys, I want to have the power to take them out in at least 2 blows... I want my jab to be devastating, I want my kicks to be devastating, THAT'S my purpose. Why throw a punch if it wont be effective???? I want to be able to defend myself and family efficiently... Its not a cool factor nor a bully factor, this is a real life scenario. As the head and protector of my home, I'd want to be equipped with the best possible training, JUST IN CASE a situation should arise. I don't own a gun, because I have kids and u never know what can happens with something like that in your home. I understand that u should run away, and that would ALWAYS be my 1st intention, but that is not always the case, so then what??? Exactly... That's why I'm seeking THIS kind of training. Power and efficiency.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I appreciate the humorous and serious answers equally. ^_^ I want to have all the tools necessary for a "just in case" scenario. I have a wife and kids, and lets say we are out walking and a group of guys try to mug us or something, I want to be equipped and prepared for SUCH situations. This goes beyond the dojo or gym. As for Ki/Chi, I want to hone my internal energy and add that to my external blows. I don't believe in wasting punches, so lets say I was jumped and I had to fend off 3-5 guys, I want to have the power to take them out in at least 2 blows... I want my jab to be devastating, I want my kicks to be devastating, THAT'S my purpose. Why throw a punch if it wont be effective???? I want to be able to defend myself and family efficiently... Its not a cool factor nor a bully factor, this is a real life scenario. As the head and protector of my home, I'd want to be equipped with the best possible training, JUST IN CASE a situation should arise. I don't own a gun, because I have kids and u never know what can happens with something like that in your home. I understand that u should run away, and that would ALWAYS be my 1st intention, but that is not always the case, so then what??? Exactly... That's why I'm seeking THIS kind of training. Power and efficiency.

All I can say is that it does *not* go beyond the traditional dojo or gym. However, it requires a lot of time and dedication to develop what you're describing. If you want to learn self-defense skills quickly, there are styles that teach that, but they will lack the ability to generate power you're describing.

Basically, you get these choices. Quickly-learned, useful, and good body mechanics (chi). Pick any two. I don't think what you state you want exists.

If you're able to devote 5 to 10 years to serious study, there are many traditions that can teach what you say you want to learn. My own is one such, but there are many others, equally valid.

 

[oaktree]

Building up Qi correctly in an internal art takes alot of time. It is like building a house out of paper and you place one sheet of paper on topof each other at a time.
But you are not really interested in Qi to use for external blows. In fact using "Qi" as an external manifestion would be Li 力 if you are looking to use the energy you see people
in internal arts you are speaking of Fa jin 發勁 This takes alot of time to develop. Thinking you can take out people with 1 or 2 hits is not impossible but its not realistic.
To Quote Bruce Lee:"A fight is not won by one punch or kick. Either learn to endure or hire a bodyguard"
A martial art isn't 100% it just increases your odds more in your favor. You can also help prepare your family to know how to dial 911 for help, how to be observant for danger and avoid situations.
Talk with your concerns with potential teachers and watch classes to see if it fitting what you are looking for. I think it will be very difficult to be looking for something that requires immediate street effectiveness but also is focusing on developing Qi and issuing energy.

 

[frank raud]

I wanted to know if there was a martial arts form that's practical and deals with fighting Multiple opponents efficiently. I also wanted to know how to attain energy power. Meaning incorporating so much energy into my fist that it devastates an opponent. I want to train in a deadly art, something thats "for real" something I would use in actual street combat, but still an art. i really need to build up my energy though as far as CHI, I want to learn how to use that for power. THanks

Are you willing to move to Fairfax Virginia?

 

[tkizzle05]

THis is not an instant thing, this is a lifetime thing. I don't plan for the now, but for the time being and beyond. @Bill M what is your style/way/philosophy??? Li energy I'll have to research that, I'm ready to start. And whats in Fairfax, Virginia?? I live in fort Wayne, Indiana.

 

[Rich Parsons]

As with all things you have to choose what you think is best. I suggest you read what I write hear and think upon it.

I appreciate the humorous and serious answers equally. ^_^

Humour is good. Being able to laugh oneself is even better.

I want to have all the tools necessary for a "just in case" scenario.

All the tools. This would be a gun. A knife. A good understanding of improvized weapons.

Yet, please understand that EDUCATION is the single most important thing you can do for self defense.

If you have education and preferred one in a science field you can make money. Money allows you to live in better neighborhoods. Allows you to have better running vehicles that are less likely to break down. Education allows you to provide for your family. I would say go to college if you have not already and get a degree and provide for your family.

I have a wife and kids, and lets say we are out walking and a group of guys try to mug us or something, I want to be equipped and prepared for SUCH situations.

Ok, first if a group of guys and they want you, they will get you. If you let me and a group of people get that close to your family and they could be a threat you have made mistakes.

(* Note: I am note a lawyer. I am not providing legal advise. I am not giving you a plan. I am just presenting opinions. *)
If you had a gun with PROPER training and LEGAL rights and license to carry then you could do that route. You can carry a knife. Just remember in the really abd areas where people are more likely to mug someone they are just as likely to also have a weapon. So if they get the drop on you you need to do what you can to not go with them and stay alive. Give them your wallet. They want the money. Give it to them. The sooner they are gone the sooner you get to walk away.

Planning on fighting 3 to 5 guys while your family is present it not a plan to win.

1) You wife needs to be trained in evacuation. Your child needs understand that when your or mom says something it needs to be done in these types of situations. She, your wife, also needs to understand this and follow those directions with the understanding that you cannot leave until they are safe.
2) Response training to stress is not a good way to live your life for overall happiness. Most people break down over time due to the exposed stress.
3) The bad guys that do this, will separate you from your family. This is bad if two or three keep you busy and the others go after them.

Which explains why you want to have power and devastation.
The problem is that there is always someone faster or stronger than you or has a plate in their head, or just plan likes getting hit in the head, that will not go down. This means you need to have someone to equalize the situation. Hence my point about weapons and improvised weapons as well.

This goes beyond the dojo or gym.

The problem with this thought is that it is in error. You will do what you train. It does not matter if in the gym or dojo or in the backyard. You will do what you train.
Now if you mean it goes beyond that art, and you want to know how to cut loose and take people out when needed this is completely different. This is a mindset. Some people have it. Some people can develop it. Others cannot.

As for Ki/Chi, I want to hone my internal energy and add that to my external blows.

I understand you want power, but this will take a long time or at least it has for most people.

I don't believe in wasting punches, so lets say I was jumped and I had to fend off 3-5 guys, I want to have the power to take them out in at least 2 blows...

2 blows. I understand your idea, but understand, other train. They can block and or delay you. If they are better than you then your plan is out the window. Do you have another plan? Can you think on fly? Can you adjust in the heat of combat? I am serious. These are questions that many cannot answer. Others can be trained slowly over time.

I want my jab to be devastating,

Why a jab? Your hand is moving through a 3d space while the opponent is moving through a 3d space a little bit off and you can move from a vital area to solid plate. Just a little bit off and nothing.
Wanting to hit hard is not a bad thing. Only wanting to strike hard is not thinking.

I want my kicks to be devastating,

See above.

THAT'S my purpose. Why throw a punch if it wont be effective????

I throw a punch to bait the opponent to provide me something. I might get a lock which then allows me to use that one as a shield from two other. Or I might be able to throw them into another and cause them to go down.

Believe me if you take the first one out quick, the others may think twice. I understand this. Yet look for more. Think for more. Educate yourself not only in college but also in philosophy and how people think. How you think. And open yourself. (* This will help with your search of ki/chi as well. *)

I want to be able to defend myself and family efficiently...

Efficiently. There are people I work with who have never been in a dangerous situation. They grew in a nice home. They went to college as did their parents and married someone who went to college and they work and live in places that are low in crime. They do not try to be a superman, but understand their limitations. Many of them are hunter and or gun owners. Unless the do something silly while traveling they most likely will never run into anything in their life. THIS IS A GOOD THING. It is also the most efficient. They avoid the situation completely.

Its not a cool factor nor a bully factor, this is a real life scenario.

I am concerned by this. What is the real life scenario chances of this happening? If it is more than slim, you need to read what I said about college and school and education and income, and providing for the family. I understand it is not for everyone, and I understand that one has to do what they can with what they can do.

As the head and protector of my home, I'd want to be equipped with the best possible training, JUST IN CASE a situation should arise.

Being prepared is a good thing. Having food and water for a long weekend without electricity is good. Having a small amount of cash on hand is a good thing.
Remember marriage and family works best when the husband and wife are a team. Working in the same direction. If she is not going to assist you in this plan you need to understand this. It might be best to avoid all conflict possibilities.

I don't own a gun, because I have kids and u never know what can happens with something like that in your home.

Gun Safes. Trigger locks. And training kids to know a safe gun and what they can touch and why they cannot are good things. The same is true for blades. Let me ask you a question. Do you have any kitchen knives? If you do, do any of they have a tip or point or sharp edge? Bad things could happen. Why do they not? Because it is not something total forbidden or unknown. They have seen people use them and understand they cut.

Training kids, even just taking them to a gun range with a friend so they understand the sound and all that goes with a trigger pull is not a bad thing. Of course right age and maturity for each kid for this point is a good thing. (* And yes this is my opinion. *)

I understand that u should run away, and that would ALWAYS be my 1st intention, but that is not always the case, so then what???

Yes then what? There is no magic bullet or golden ring or what have you. Every move has a counter. There is always someone faster. There is always someone stronger. So what do you do. You keep trying. You do not give up.

Exactly... That's why I'm seeking THIS kind of training. Power and efficiency.

Good Luck