The Two Karate's: Self-Defense & Sport

[isshinryuronin26 26]

As we know, karate evolved as effective common self-defense (mostly in the 1800's) but along the way some of this effectiveness eroded. Why? Post WWII karate's emphasis turned to sport, essentially changing it into a different art not as well designed for the street. Some of these inter-related changes found in popular tournament sparring (often reflected in daily practice) are:

Techniques
Removal of the most dangerous techniques such as joint locks, breaks, shots to the groin, eyes, and throat and less use of takedowns.

Tactics
Emphasis on landing a single kick or punch (for the point) rather than multiple strikes to take the opponent out and emphasis on longer range attacks, all which combine to encourage more complex feints and setups.

Strategy
Rules to make it safer, encouraging flashier and riskier techniques over a set time, often much longer than an actual combat encounter, allowing time to "figure out" the opponent's style. Perhaps most importantly, in sport karate one fights against an opponent with similar training, something that would be rare on the street. Karate was not developed to fight other karate practitioners. This is a fairly recent application.

All the above contribute to the karate most are familiar with to be less effective in closeup, down and dirty combat against an unfamiliar, less predictable opponent employing techniques not found in sport karate (I'm not even getting into the mindset). Taking all the above into consideration they make sport karate a much different animal as was originally intended. This is not to say modern karate training is of little use for self-defense, a good chunk of it is, but as I have listed, an equally big chunk of original self-defense karate is missing, rendering it less effective on the street. I enjoy both versions of karate, realizing they are, indeed, different.

 

[drop bear135 10]

Which sport?

There are some pretty robust Karate competitions out there.

 

[isshinryuronin26 26]

Which sport?

There are some pretty robust Karate competitions out there.

Yes, those clips were certainly robust (whether they're even actually karate or a form of kickboxing/MMA is debatable) but do not contradict much of what I posted. At 6:55 in the Karate Combat 37 clip for example, the guy in white shows the danger of certain techniques I spoke of, putting him out of position and at risk, as well as other aspects of sport which differ from non-sport fighting. And I can't imagine a self-defense encounter lasting a half hour. By its very nature sport is different from non-sport.

Are these dangerous guys, nevertheless? Obviously. But these are pros exclusively training for their particular sport, and not indicative of 98% of karate practitioners or the "popular tournament sparring" they engage in. Still, the clip supports many of the points I made on the differences between sport and non-sport.

 

[drop bear135 10]

Yes, those clips were certainly robust (whether they're even actually karate or a form of kickboxing/MMA is debatable) but do not contradict much of what I posted. At 6:55 in the Karate Combat 37 clip for example, the guy in white shows the danger of certain techniques I spoke of, putting him out of position and at risk, as well as other aspects of sport which differ from non-sport fighting. And I can't imagine a self-defense encounter lasting a half hour. By its very nature sport is different from non-sport.

Are these dangerous guys, nevertheless? Obviously. But these are pros exclusively training for their particular sport, and not indicative of 98% of karate practitioners or the "popular tournament sparring" they engage in. Still, the clip supports many of the points I made on the differences between sport and non-sport.

Ok. If a sports karate guy can use those tactics, techniques and mentality to knock out a trained fighter basically rendering them helpless.

Why couldn't they use that in self defence?

 

[isshinryuronin26 26]

Ok. If a sports karate guy can use those tactics, techniques and mentality to knock out a trained fighter basically rendering them helpless.

Why couldn't they use that in self defence?

No disagreement here. THEY CAN:

This is not to say modern karate training is of little use for self-defense, a good chunk of it is

As I've previously said, there are some techniques, tactics and strategic considerations that are different as is the situation itself and must be kept in mind when doing karate for sport or using it for self-defense. They are essentially two different styles with similar yet somewhat different goals. I would much rather have sport karate experience in a self-defense situation than no formal training at all. Each is good in its own way.

 

[drop bear135 10]

No disagreement here. THEY CAN:

As I've previously said, there are some techniques, tactics and strategic considerations that are different as is the situation itself and must be kept in mind when doing karate for sport or using it for self-defense. They are essentially two different styles with similar yet somewhat different goals. I would much rather have sport karate experience in a self-defense situation than no formal training at all. Each is good in its own way.

So if sports karate works for self defence.

It is self defence karate.

 

[Same Trick81 32]

The new era of karate that removed eye poking, hair pulling and such brought karate up to levels of sportsmanship, fairness and gentlemanliness, sadly with introduction of neo-mma the noble ways are at risk of becoming forgotten and lost.

 

[Gyakuto136 145]

When I hear about the members of my other halve’s karate dojo-little kids, roly-poly mum’s, middle-age spreading dad’s, I completely understand why ‘tippy-tappy’ Karate is so prevalent; these people don’t want to engage in painful, aggressive fighting. They want a bit of fun and the thrill of hearing “Oooo…Charlarny, Bradly-Toddly-Bob (III) and little Kylar have blackbelts in Karoddy” and have the lovely, warm illusion of being safer on the streets. These are the demographic that have kept Karate alive and thriving thanks to their patronage. Whoever realised that the beasting that is traditional combat art training who lead to the extinction of Karate had great perspecuity. Their sanitisation of Karate has kept it alive rather like the wolf is still alive within the Poodle! ->

 

[Fungus]

As we know, karate evolved as effective common self-defense (mostly in the 1800's) but along the way some of this effectiveness eroded. Why? Post WWII karate's emphasis turned to sport, essentially changing it into a different art not as well designed for the street. Some of these inter-related changes found in popular tournament sparring (often reflected in daily practice) are:

Techniques
Removal of the most dangerous techniques such as joint locks, breaks, shots to the groin, eyes, and throat and less use of takedowns.

In sparring yes, but it's still part of curriculim, isn't if? We train nut-kicks almost every kihon session, and throat strikes are also part of curriculum. I also train head and elbow strikes to head level every week at full power close range on the heavy bag.

Question that i can't answer: Did 1800's karate really do "sparring" with eye poking or groin kicks? How many weeks did they show up before dropping off? I mean how do you TRAIN tactics without sparring? Or perhaps the 1800's people "trained" in REAL fights?

That certainly would have better ecological validity, but ethically questionable.

Tactics
Emphasis on landing a single kick or punch (for the point) rather than multiple strikes

This is not true for Kyokushin though. There the opposite holds. You get no points even for a technical fancy technique if it does not affect your opponent. (ie if its too weak). And a tehnically ugly, but legal techniqe that makes the ooponent go down for count is a score.

Strategy
Rules to make it safer, encouraging flashier and riskier techniques over a set time, often much longer than an actual combat encounter, allowing time to "figure out" the opponent's style.

I agree, this makes sense. Our shihan also use to say this, that a real fight is normally over very fast. One goes out. If not, its because the people involves don't know what they are doing.

My impression is that the best lessions I learned for self defense has come from high contact sparring. Had i not dong any sparring, but only done kihon and kata I honestly thing my self defense skills would have been questionable.

 

[drop bear135 10]

The time limit thing has always been a weird idea for me.

So competition fighters are at a high risk of getting knocked out. When the other guy is fresh and fast and they don't know what to expect from them.

So they often won't commit to this high risk high reward system of jumping in the pocket and having a slug fest. And that's why they hang back and throw ones and two's.

Its just a bit safer.

Now lets take a completely random guy. Get rid of weight classes Take all the padding off their hands and make the consequences of getting knocked out really bad.

And tell me. Why would you do that?

What sort of desperate hurry are you in?


A street fight example of hanging back and just picking the other person off.

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[Gyakuto136 145]

Apparently the WKF have had to modify their rules. To paraphrase:

After a successful punch/kick, the scorer is not permitted to immediately turn their back on their opponent and skip back to the starting position. Instead they must stand in kamae briefly and display zanshin.

Successful scoring must not be celebrated (fist pumping etc)

How pathetic that these behaviours need to be enforced with rules!

 

[skribs135 155]

There's a similar discussion in BJJ. The general stereotype is that "self-defense" schools (such as Gracie Barra) are less effective in competition. These schools tend to lean slightly towards a TMA with their curriculum, in that there's self-defense concepts included and usually some specific requirements for promotion, as opposed to focusing exclusively on sport situations and promotion based on personal journey (regardless of specific techniques). Gracie Barra is known for holding off live rolls for white belts longer than most other schools.

However, Gracie Barra folks do tend to do well in competition. I should know - I just lost to one yesterday. And the skills you learn in live rolls in a sport-focused art can help very well in a real fight. Especially if your focus is practicing the art against live opponents.

There's a few other wrinkles to throw in. Some folks are in it primarily for the physical benefits that the exercise and discipline can give. Others are in it for the mental benefits that routine and attention-to-detail can help develop. Some are in it for the social aspect of the martial art. And then there's parents who put their kids in martial arts so their kids can learn the basic benefits of confidence, respect, and discipline. All of these are going to be irrespective of whether the focus is sport, self-defense, or just the art itself.

 

[Fungus]

The time limit thing has always been a weird idea for me.

So competition fighters are at a high risk of getting knocked out. When the other guy is fresh and fast and they don't know what to expect from them.

So they often won't commit to this high risk high reward system of jumping in the pocket and having a slug fest. And that's why they hang back and throw ones and two's.

Its just a bit safer.

Now lets take a completely random guy. Get rid of weight classes Take all the padding off their hands and make the consequences of getting knocked out really bad.

And tell me. Why would you do that?

What sort of desperate hurry are you in?

To speak for myself - given my strenght and weakness - extending the game to make it a energy draining marathon would be to my disadvantage - I would get tired and be an easy pray in the end. I would opt for early finish, its my best chance. Yes I can be knocked out early, but my odds of getting knocked out when fatigued is higher I think. Unless my opponent has even worse endurance.

But I think this differs, if you are a marathon type, it is in your interest to drain your opponent. So I've adapted to not let myself to be drained by tricks. I am better of eating some weak strikes, than to dance around. But this is me.

I think each one should adapt to their strenght and weakness. My strengths are high pain treshold, high power but my weakness is fairly low cardio-endurance.

 

[Fungus]

Its just a bit safer.

But then isnt it safer for the opponent as well?

I think in a fight, there is high chance of receiving serious damage, no way around that i think, unless the fighted can be converted by de-escalation into an friendly end. Given that latter possibility, opting for a early finish may risk higher total damage, as my argument above implicitly excludes that option. The constraint was more - this will end when one of us can't stand up. Then and only then, would I opt for early finish. Not otherwise.

 

[HighKick]

There's a similar discussion in BJJ. The general stereotype is that "self-defense" schools (such as Gracie Barra) are less effective in competition. These schools tend to lean slightly towards a TMA with their curriculum, in that there's self-defense concepts included and usually some specific requirements for promotion, as opposed to focusing exclusively on sport situations and promotion based on personal journey (regardless of specific techniques). Gracie Barra is known for holding off live rolls for white belts longer than most other schools.

However, Gracie Barra folks do tend to do well in competition. I should know - I just lost to one yesterday. And the skills you learn in live rolls in a sport-focused art can help very well in a real fight. Especially if your focus is practicing the art against live opponents.

There's a few other wrinkles to throw in. Some folks are in it primarily for the physical benefits that the exercise and discipline can give. Others are in it for the mental benefits that routine and attention-to-detail can help develop. Some are in it for the social aspect of the martial art. And then there's parents who put their kids in martial arts so their kids can learn the basic benefits of confidence, respect, and discipline. All of these are going to be irrespective of whether the focus is sport, self-defense, or just the art itself.

I feel your last paragraph is a synopsis of every school regardless of style. Or at least that is the intent. Some hit the mark better than others.
One exception is school/programs purely for competition, but they are rarer and generally for the elite performers. This group has a very different focus from the majority.

 

[MisterAndersonOR]

Hi all,
as a man, who used to have a bully problem,
I understand the importance of self defense.
I defeated my bully problem, with one school yard scrap, when I was about 12 years old. Word got out.

Never got in a fight in high school, or college. Didn't need to.

For some fun martial arts satire, look up Matthew Page, he is funny.

He founded his own style, but I believe it is meant to be taken,
tongue in cheek

Regards,
Matt

 

[Gyakuto136 145]

Hi all,
as a man, who used to have a bully problem,
I understand the importance of self defense.
I defeated my bully problem, with one school yard scrap, when I was about 12 years old. Word got out.

I’m not sure I understand the full context of this story with regards the thread.

Never got in a fight in high school, or college. Didn't need to.

How did your high school reputation for being a ‘bully-slayer’ get transferred to college?

For some fun martial arts satire, look up Matthew Page, he is funny.

He founded his own style, but I believe it is meant to be taken,
tongue in cheek

Master Ken is not tongue-in-cheek and his Ameridote is a patriot’s school of American Karoddy.

 

[isshinryuronin26 26]

Question that i can't answer: Did 1800's karate really do "sparring" with eye poking or groin kicks? How many weeks did they show up before dropping off? I mean how do you TRAIN tactics without sparring? Or perhaps the 1800's people "trained" in REAL fights?

It's likely there was no "sparring" in the sense of taking turns attacking and defending, give and take in a competitive match (or practicing for one). It was all "taking." The aim was to dispatch the opponent ASAP, the strategy being to attack without the possibility of countering until he was crushed. In close quarters actual combat there is little time to engage in fancy tactics. It's very direct and offensive. This was the doctrine Motobu Choki followed.

Most training, it is thought, was in the form of intensive two-man drills, much like modern special forces combat training. They do not learn to "spar." They practice to incapacitate and kill without sending their training partner to the hospital. During the 1800's many of the practitioners were government security personnel trained to be prepared for serious combat and had experience in such encounters.

 

[Fungus]

They practice to incapacitate and kill without sending their training partner to the hospital.

Sounds awsome. But possible requires more selection than what usually shows up at "everyone welcome" beginners class up karate these days. I can imagine many things going very wrong in such a class even with the best intentions.

 

[drop bear135 10]

But then isnt it safer for the opponent as well?

I think in a fight, there is high chance of receiving serious damage, no way around that i think, unless the fighted can be converted by de-escalation into an friendly end. Given that latter possibility, opting for a early finish may risk higher total damage, as my argument above implicitly excludes that option. The constraint was more - this will end when one of us can't stand up. Then and only then, would I opt for early finish. Not otherwise.

Safer for me is generally the ultimate end. Unless I really want the guy.

If we both stand back ten feet and throw punches at the air then walk off.

If I am the victim I win that fight.