Martial Arts Based on attacking pressure points

GaryR

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--"Lets say, Your system has Primary Block A, and Primary Strike A. There is a good chance is Kata will have a 2 move sequence in which Primary Block A is followed by Primary Strike A. This is significant of some, if not many Systems Kata being used as storage devices, to contain all that sort of stuff. Its like a book, only made of movement.

(Skip to 1:20, optimally.)

The fruits of a quick google." --Cyriacus

Thank you for the clips. What Iain wrote under the second clip pretty much sums up my thoughts.
I took the liberty of emphasising part of his quote. "No part of the kata is left unused".

"As this thread was about pressure points, Iain's first move to inside the elbow picks up a 'pressure' point, his strike to the neck probabably strikes another two or three, his elbow strike to the side of the head another and the final downward elbow still another. So that small sequence of kata involved at leat five vital points. Now, Iain did not mention vital points at all. He didn't have to. The beauty of the kata is that if it is performed correctly and the application is applied correctly, you will use those points without even knowing it. :asian:
Cyriacus

The first clip...Yeesh... I DO like the second clip --mostly, I've been teaching a similar technique for a LONG time, there are better ways of executing the method --sequence depicted in the clip: I would first strike at the same time as I grab (or intercept) the wrist/arm, I also wouldn't rely on any wrist grab, or continued wrist grab of the lapel here. The technique can be done, more fluidly, efficiently, with more power, and without depending on catching the wrist, or pinning it to your chest. If you want to talk and demo specifics, I am game.

[/QUOTE]You have a great point about the point and small kata sequence that is being used, very cool. And as I have said before, Ideally your kata SHOULD represent your most likely response/attack, change, complete methods / principles / applications, but in the choas of the moment getting at 5 vital points in a row using your kata in sequence is not something I would count on. Possible, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

As I'm sure you know, the angle in the kata tells us the angle we need to be at in relationship to the enemy. The ninety degree angle at the start of the kata therefore tells us to shift to the side of the enemy (away from his free hand) and then to apply the kata. Because of the chaotic nature of conflict, the kata does not know where our feet will be prior to the application of the movement; it therefore simply records the angle we need to be at and not the unknowable specifics of how to get there. I mention that because it's a point that sometimes confuses people new to bunkai, or who still have the view that a sideway move means the enemy is to the side (as opposed to the karateka moving to their side).

I understand what your saying here, and I believe we are on the same page here. WE likely agree on more than we initially thought. :bangahead:

One thing to note is that great care needs to be taken on the neck crank and your partner's safety must be your key priority at all times. On a technical level you should note how no part of the kata motion is left unused: the "prime for the block" is used, the hands on the hip are used, the stance facilities the correct shift in bodyweight, and so on. The standard "block and punch application", however, leaves many parts of the motion redundant and has many tactical flaws. I would therefore suggest that what is presented here is a much better way of looking at the movement. However, as always, it's up to you to have a look and make up your own mind. Enjoy"

Great insight, no part of a motion / kata / method should be unused, extraneous, or purposeless, what you presented (in the second clip reflects a good use of kata it looks like, its just that I can do better, unless that is a basic version, and there is a better version that is more efficient with better mechanics, etc. As I said, this is not an attack on the person, but the movement, application, information, etc.

Thanks for the on topic post, look forward to hopefully respectful and productive discussion K-man / Cyracuis et al (except "the last legionary" - he is on my ****-list).

Best,

G
 
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Chris Parker

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Right. My turn.

Gary, bluntly, you may have some physical skills, but you have shown absolutely no understanding whatsoever of martial arts here. At all. You seem stuck in the young mans quagmire of focusing on techniques and power, when that really is the least of it all. You have missed what makes a martial art what it is, what kata is really about, and more... and most of all, you've demonstrated no real indication that you are open to learning. You are simply outclassed in information and knowledge here, no matter what you think of yourself, on many levels. But I gotta say, telling K-Man that he's "young" is quite hysterical to me... especially when he's told you himself that he's been training a decade longer than you've been alive.

In short, son, grow up. You're not the biggest, baddest person here, and we're not that easily impressed. But, more importantly, you're wrong. If you're open to hearing why, ask, and I'll answer. But until then, the simple fact that you said "Yeesh" to Cyriacus' first clip shows that you have many years to go before you're on equal footing with the people you're discussing with, let alone Taira or his ilk.
 

Cyriacus

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Cyriacus

The first clip...Yeesh... I DO like the second clip --mostly, I've been teaching a similar technique for a LONG time, there are better ways of executing the method

Im sure there are. Hey, I wouldnt use This method. You did well for Yourself to divert the topic away from the that of Kata, however.
Also, yeesh? Yeah, Youre welcome to distate that Karate System if You wish. It just emphasises that Your idea of right and wrong aint universal.

--sequence depicted in the clip: I would first strike at the same time as I grab (or intercept) the wrist/arm, I also wouldn't rely on any wrist grab, or continued wrist grab of the lapel here.

Good for You, Good Sir.

The technique can be done, more fluidly, efficiently, with more power, and without depending on catching the wrist, or pinning it to your chest.

Aye - It can also be done pretty effectively with a grab to the anything followed by a strike. Grabbing isnt a necessary part of this kind of thing, at least not all the time. It secures the other person. Where exactly You grab isnt too important. You dont see Judo Fighters training the exact point of the collar They secure - Its incidental to setting up and or executing the Throw, or the Trip, or the Sweep. The most important thing is that it makes it harder for the other person to prevent what Youre doing. Grabbing the wrist (Which is rather seperate to catching it, since catching the wrist would be more akin to a palm block/hook block > grab) is incidental to setting up and or executing the punch, elbow, kick, headbutt, eye gouge, or whatever it is Youre doing.
If You arent a fan of grabs, Youre welcome to not be a fan of grabs. Im ok with that.
Im a fan of things that work, and the use of grabs works just as well as the not-use of grabs. Debating that is about as silly as debating whether Muay Thai fighters throw Their roundhouses harder than Karateka.

If you want to talk and demo specifics, I am game.

Again mate, This aint Facebook. Its a discussion board. Im not here to give You demos. We can, however, discuss. Which is often needing of being specific.

Speaking of which, would You kindly focus on Kata and Pressure Points, since thats what We're meant to be talking about?
Its kinda why I posted My reply. And why I made it entirely about Kata, and how Theyre used to contain idealogies.
Additionally, Im sure theres other Kata in Bunkai which deal with the same grab in different ways. If Martial Arts have anything in common, Theyre palletes for Their user. That doesnt mean You can just slop paint all over the place and make a masterpiece, but a Wrestler and a Boxer arent better or worse for Their systems. The person, however, may have chosen grappling over striking.
Someone might like grabbing wrists.

Lastly, Power is important. About as important as actually getting it to work first. If Gyms have taught Me anything, its that just about any way shape or form of person can pound a bag forcefully. That doesnt make Them unstoppable, or Theyd all be going for world titles in no time.
Efficiency is subjective.
Fluidity? Eheh. I wont even go there. For everyones sake.
The important thing is that there are more important things than those three things.
 

Bob Hubbard

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Final warning folks. (This makes 2 mod warnings for anyone paying attention).
Cut the insults and slams.
Thank you.

 

GaryR

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Speaking of which, would You kindly focus on Kata and Pressure Points, since thats what We're meant to be talking about?
Its kinda why I posted My reply. And why I made it entirely about Kata, and how Theyre used to contain idealogies.
Additionally, Im sure theres other Kata in Bunkai which deal with the same grab in different ways. If Martial Arts have anything in common, Theyre palletes for Their user. That doesnt mean You can just slop paint all over the place and make a masterpiece, but a Wrestler and a Boxer arent better or worse for Their systems. The person, however, may have chosen grappling over striking.
Someone might like grabbing wrists.

Lastly, Power is important. About as important as actually getting it to work first. If Gyms have taught Me anything, its that just about any way shape or form of person can pound a bag forcefully. That doesnt make Them unstoppable, or Theyd all be going for world titles in no time.
Efficiency is subjective.


.

Great post and points, I agree, back on topic, or the flames could get hot, rather be productive, cheers.

G
 

GaryR

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Right. My turn.

Gary, bluntly, you may have some physical skills, but you have shown absolutely no understanding whatsoever of martial arts here. At all. You seem stuck in the young mans quagmire of focusing on techniques and power, when that really is the least of it all.

Could you please be specific as to where I have shown misunderstanding and why? I am happy and open to learn... I am also FULLY aware of the quagmire of focusing on techniques and power. I'm actually the opposite of the quagmire, I teach and practice by principle; techniques are minutia, and power should be a given with proper training, movement etc.


You have missed what makes a martial art what it is, what kata is really about, and more... and most of all, you've demonstrated no real indication that you are open to learning. You are simply outclassed in information and knowledge here, no matter what you think of yourself, on many levels. But I gotta say, telling K-Man that he's "young" is quite hysterical to me... especially when he's told you himself that he's been training a decade longer than you've been alive.

No, I haven't, again I think you either need to re-read AND provide examples demonstrating what I've missed and how you deduced that?
Telling someone they are acting like a "kid" is hysterical, unfortunately what's not hysterical is that him is acting like one. If you don't act your age in a conversation, it's unreasonable to then turn around and claim your older and your useless input should somehow be given weight...


In short, son, grow up. You're not the biggest, baddest person here, and we're not that easily impressed. But, more importantly, you're wrong. If you're open to hearing why, ask, and I'll answer.

We all have growing up to do, me included. And your likely very right, I'm probably not the "biggest baddest person here". I am not easily impressed either--- as evidence by my specific critique of really good material for its genre'.

Importantly, you have not shown I am wrong, its just a statement at this point, chances are we may align on more than you think, and be different in other ways. It is easy for two posters to be describing the same thing in two different ways / terms and they are similar in some respects and different in others. , you may have misinterpreted what I have said, text is not a great venue, much of this stuff can be compared in person very quickly. I am open to hearing why, but you are so non-specific here, you would really need to quote me in context, then either and explain or demonstrate what you thought I was doing/ saying and B) how and why its wrong. No reason to get personal, nobody's cup should be full, if we simply stay on topics, and discuss and compare methods/ ideas (as in this thread) ---Karate Kyusho application vs. Tai Chi Dim-mak application, for example that is wonderful, I was willing to provide video demonstrations of why I would change what and how if I critique it, that is a MORE than reasonable offer I put out, instead of taking it up I get bombared with crap instead :confused:

If I'm wrong about anything, I am definitely open to hearing, being shown,\, someone said this inst' facebook, but sticking to purely text makes it really hard to discuss/compare. There are free upload services, and most cameras have a vid cam now anyway, why not if you can and have the time. At least be on topic. Here I am / would offer specific explanations, and demonstrations. Hopefully if any MT members are in LA they are cool.

But until then, the simple fact that you said "Yeesh" to Cyriacus' first clip shows that you have many years to go before you're on equal footing with the people you're discussing with, let alone Taira or his ilk.

Not true, quite the opposite: The karate form- its GOOD---for karate. But there are vast details behind my "yeesh" that are well beyond the scope of this thread. Therefore, you cannot reasonably draw an inference either way as to where my "footing" is.

I look forward to hopefully having productive discussion with you, I appreciate that you at least offered to provide feedback, perhaps we can use this pressure point application thread to share relevant info to it and constructive feedback.

Respectfully,

Gary
 

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So are you or are you not Roddy Piper??? ..............................................................................
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:ultracool wow.
 

rickster

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As for pressure points and wrist grabbing in a hardcore brawl...I say K.I.S.S.

Keep It Simple Son (I didnt want to say another derogatory word)


That said, the more basic and proven method will prevail over all the wishy washy stuff
 

Cyriacus

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As for pressure points and wrist grabbing in a hardcore brawl...I say K.I.S.S.

Keep It Simple Son (I didnt want to say another derogatory word)


That said, the more basic and proven method will prevail over all the wishy washy stuff

Optionally, use Pressure Points based on Chinese Meridians.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Chinese_meridians.JPG

That way, You can just wildly swing at things, and Youll be hitting Pressure Points like a champ!
 

K-man

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Cyriacus

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You will be hitting pressure points, but with wild swings, it won't be like a champ. Hitting many of the pressure points requires attacking at the right angle. The kata give you the angles and the targets. :asian:

Psst! I know :)

But what if You want to be a wild Champ?
 

Supra Vijai

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Psst! I know :)

But what if You want to be a wild Champ?

This wild Champ?

107HITMONCHAMP.png
 

Cyriacus

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I'm sure your local Poke-centre will let you customise it.... if you ask nice and hit the right pressure points to persuade them

...So... I should go in there and start swinging at Their head area, and when I score enough Pressure Point Points I win?
 

Supra Vijai

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...So... I should go in there and start swinging at Their head area, and when I score enough Pressure Point Points I win?

Seems legit. That's still better tactically than anything Fighters Uncaged on Xbox Kinect offers. You probably wouldn't have so much lag that your character throws one jab after you've thrown a couple of jabs, half a dozen hooks and a kick of some description.

and clogs on the feet?

Tez, we've discussed clogs before. They aren't ALL bad! These ones though could benefit from being black with some nice red detailing perhaps?
 

Cyriacus

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In a brawl, no use wasting time...just hit and move

Somewere in there, You seem to have missed the point. lol

and clogs on the feet?

Mm. Pink clogs and a yellow dress would be fine.

Seems legit. That's still better tactically than anything Fighters Uncaged on Xbox Kinect offers. You probably wouldn't have so much lag that your character throws one jab after you've thrown a couple of jabs, half a dozen hooks and a kick of some description.

Yeah. Intense simulators like it can only go so far.
 

Chris Parker

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Hi Gary,

Could you please be specific as to where I have shown misunderstanding and why? I am happy and open to learn...

Specific? Honestly, most of your comments in this thread alone, really. Most particularly when it comes to kata.

I am also FULLY aware of the quagmire of focusing on techniques and power. I'm actually the opposite of the quagmire, I teach and practice by principle; techniques are minutia, and power should be a given with proper training, movement etc.

That's not whats coming across, though. And you perhaps have misunderstood what I was referring to when I mentioned "power and techniques". Your constant claims that you could "handle" seniors in various arts without putting your tea down, that you could show persons such as Taira Sensei ways to "tweak" and improve their art, show that you are only thinking about the, frankly, very basic approach to martial arts, in that you aren't really focused on the martial art itself, just on what you think is most effective as a fighting method (in other words, your own personal take on techniques and [personsal] power). As such, you are showing a lack of understanding of the arts themselves, and are absolutely showing to be stuck in the aforementioned quagmire (but, out of interest, what would be the "opposite of the quagmire"? Doesn't really make any sense, you know... ).

No, I haven't, again I think you either need to re-read AND provide examples demonstrating what I've missed and how you deduced that?

Again, it's honestly all the way through these posts... here's a few examples:

No method/strategy or technique should rely on dim-mak (a specific target) for success, but like i said before it can be icing on the cake, and sometimes, that icing can save your a@@.

So a method/strategy shouldn't rely on proper targeting, but proper targeting can save you? Are you sure you know which way you're going with that?

George Dillman to my knowledge is a nice, and skilled man; but all things are relative, many karate practitioners "advance" to CMA like application after black belt level - why not start earlier, cross train at least!

Dillman? Hmm, not the greatest bastion of credibility there....


Then there's the back and forth where you quoted Erle's take on knife defence (don't grab the knife hand), got questioned about it, turned back 180 degrees, and still missed some of the most essential realities of knife defence. For some ideas of corrections, look here: http://icqpoa.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/cqc-basics-knife-defence-primal.html

Then there's the entirety of post 60... and the conversation that followed, which seemed to show that you weren't really open to other views on kata.

Telling someone they are acting like a "kid" is hysterical, unfortunately what's not hysterical is that him is acting like one. If you don't act your age in a conversation, it's unreasonable to then turn around and claim your older and your useless input should somehow be given weight...

Uh... you seem to be confusing who is saying what here. K-Man never acted like a child, and I've never known him to. Legionary, on the other hand, would be the first to admit to such actions, but he does it for specific reasons. You might want to take check of your own message, though. How is you saying that other people's input is "useless" because it disagrees with you not you acting like a spoiled child?

We all have growing up to do, me included. And your likely very right, I'm probably not the "biggest baddest person here". I am not easily impressed either--- as evidence by my specific critique of really good material for its genre'.

Can you point out which "specific critique of really good material for it's genre" you're talking about here? Post 68, for instance, is just plain ignorance over and over again. If you want, I'm happy to go through it and point out where you're wrong throughout the entire thing...

Importantly, you have not shown I am wrong, its just a statement at this point, chances are we may align on more than you think, and be different in other ways. It is easy for two posters to be describing the same thing in two different ways / terms and they are similar in some respects and different in others. , you may have misinterpreted what I have said, text is not a great venue, much of this stuff can be compared in person very quickly. I am open to hearing why, but you are so non-specific here, you would really need to quote me in context, then either and explain or demonstrate what you thought I was doing/ saying and B) how and why its wrong. No reason to get personal, nobody's cup should be full, if we simply stay on topics, and discuss and compare methods/ ideas (as in this thread) ---Karate Kyusho application vs. Tai Chi Dim-mak application, for example that is wonderful, I was willing to provide video demonstrations of why I would change what and how if I critique it, that is a MORE than reasonable offer I put out, instead of taking it up I get bombared with crap instead :confused:

Everything you've said about kata is wrong. We couldn't possibly be in agreement on that. And no, I haven't pointed it out with specific instances, as I said that I would if you asked, and as K-Man, Flying Crane, and others had already done so before me, but you refused to listen. So unless you are genuinely asking to be corrected, and are open to the idea that your take on kata is completely off base, and very much an amateur/beginner understanding (which you haven't demonstrated such openness so far), then I'll give it to you.

If I'm wrong about anything, I am definitely open to hearing, being shown,\, someone said this inst' facebook, but sticking to purely text makes it really hard to discuss/compare. There are free upload services, and most cameras have a vid cam now anyway, why not if you can and have the time. At least be on topic. Here I am / would offer specific explanations, and demonstrations. Hopefully if any MT members are in LA they are cool.

Thing is, a video wouldn't really do anything, as it's your intellectual understanding of the training method that's flawed. And that can be explained by the written word a lot easier than by video. The fact that you think it is shows that you're dealing with people a fair bit above your level here.

Not true, quite the opposite: The karate form- its GOOD---for karate. But there are vast details behind my "yeesh" that are well beyond the scope of this thread. Therefore, you cannot reasonably draw an inference either way as to where my "footing" is.

No, believe me Gary, I can see exactly where your footing is, what your path has been, and the filters you're looking at all this through... which is why I can see how far off base you are, as well as why. I can see why you said it, or at least why you felt that it was an appropriate comment to have, but you are really off base completely here.

I look forward to hopefully having productive discussion with you, I appreciate that you at least offered to provide feedback, perhaps we can use this pressure point application thread to share relevant info to it and constructive feedback.

Respectfully,

Gary

Let's see, then.
 
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