How much "pressure testing" does BJJ actually do?

[skribs101]

I remember conversations back when I was mainly a TKD/HKD guy, that centered on the idea that I don't know what I'm talking about because these arts don't pressure test in the same way as combat sports. That BJJ is a far superior martial art because you can go 100% in training without much increase in risk.

What I've found is that (in addition to there being more risk in BJJ than in TKD sparring):

• Upper belts take it easy on me. Nowadays I can give the brown and fresh black belts a run for their money, but more experienced black belts still have their kids gloves on.
• Often when something DOES legitimately work on an upper belt, it's because you caught them sleeping or they're working on their B-game.
• Bigger folks take it easy on me. Even white belts are sometimes holding back their strength or don't want to put their full pressure on me.
• Most folks take it easy on women, especially at my gym where most of the women are white belts.
• There is competition...but you're matched based on age, size, skill, and gender. So it's pressure tested in a very controlled environment.

I'd say for the vast majority of my training, I'd consider my skills "pressure formed", but not necessarily "pressure tested".

 

[wab25]

BJJ does zero pressure testing. Aikido does real pressure testing. You might be surprised by this statement....

BJJ only deals with one on one and they are encouraged to go to the ground. In Aikido, they will regularly train dealing with multiple attackers and run multiple attacker drills. Anyone can deal with one person.... but dealing with multiple attackers is dealing with a lot more pressure.

I can hear it now.... but show me an Aikido student defeat a BJJ student.... if they can handle 3 or 4 guys at once, 1 should be very easy, yet usually the Aikido guy gets taken down and submitted on the ground....

The thing is "pressure testing" is a term we use to show how the other art is not as good as our art. Each art, has a different idea of what "pressure testing" is and what the successful outcome of that test should be. For BJJ that pressure is trying to submit a fully resisting guy in a ground fight, that may have started as a standing grapple. For Aikido, that pressure is trying to remain relaxed and fluid as you blend with multiple attackers. For TKD it is kicking the other guy who is trying to kick you. For Judo, it is throwing the other guy who is trying to throw you. For a Karate Kata contest, it is performing your Kata for the judges, in front of the audience trying to execute the perfect technique, better than the other competitors. These are all different kinds of pressure, and the success for each is defined differently. These produce different results. So, it depends on your goals as a student.

When I hear people say that a certain art does not pressure test their stuff.... what I really hear is that a certain art is aiming for a different result than my art, thus they do not use the same methods as mine. What you really need to do, is to find what results you are looking for and then find the art or school that produces those results.

When I hear schools say that they pressure test their stuff... what I really hear is that they believe that the result they are looking for is the best and only result... and they have adjusted their methodology to support that specific result. In this case, its a marketing term.

I don't think there is anything wrong with different schools looking for different results. I do think that claiming that another art does not pressure test their stuff means that you do not understand what results that art is going after.

If the school you are at, is taking you towards the result that you are looking for.... who cares what others say?

 

[skribs101]

For BJJ that pressure is trying to submit a fully resisting guy in a ground fight, that may have started as a standing grapple.

This is my comment. This is what BJJ considers pressure testing. But when I'm rolling with a 100-pound white belt woman, I am not a fully resisting guy. I am a 20% resisting guy.

 

[dunc]

I agree that all arts have their own forms of testing
Pressure testing requires rules / codes of conduct / boundaries etc to keep it safe and these greatly influence the outcomes

So the question is: Do the outcomes match the art's claims?

On BJJ specifically every technique you use should be tested against resisting opponents. There are different degrees of resistance and in order to master a technique I believe you have to progress from light resistance to hard otherwise you fail too soon
So for example when I want to start developing a new technique I'll use it on the blue belts. Once I have that down I progress to the higher belts until I'm using it successfully against my peers in the academy

Generally speaking (in my experience) in BJJ your peers never give you an easy ride - smack talking is the ultimate guarantor of that

 

[wab25]

This is my comment. This is what BJJ considers pressure testing. But when I'm rolling with a 100-pound white belt woman, I am not a fully resisting guy. I am a 20% resisting guy.

Theoretically, you should be pressure testing her to her potential. Eventually, as she improves, you will be the 21% guy, then the 22% guy... Thus you are moving her towards the result of being able to roll with 100% resisting you. Whether she makes it there or not is a different question. But, the methodology used moves her towards that result. The BJJ methodology does not help you get better at the Aikido multiple attacker drills or the TKD tournament fights.

Is your question more along the lines of: If we are really pressure testing, why don't we smash immediately every time we roll, until she figures out how to handle it?

 

[skribs101]

Is your question more along the lines of: If we are really pressure testing, why don't we smash immediately every time we roll, until she figures out how to handle it?

Basically, yes. It's challenging the idea that we're pressure testing as much as we think we are.

 

[Flying Crane]

All training is an approximation. No training is actual fighting. If it was, every training session would result in real injuries and possible visits to the ER.

There is always a gap between training and real fighting. In some methods, the gap may be shorter than in others. But the gap is there.

 

[wab25]

Basically, yes. It's challenging the idea that we're pressure testing as much as we think we are.

Is she getting better? Are you increasing the pressure on her?

Has the pressure been increased against you, since the day you walked in? They gave you new belts.... but did you actually get better in handling the type of pressure being given?

Just because you and her cannot handle the full smash, from everybody or anybody.... does not mean you have not moved closer to that goal. It does not mean you will ever get there, few actually arrive there and then age gets them.

But as long as those in your school are honestly pushing each other to the limits and adjusting as your ability increases, then yes you are pressure testing and doing what you say you are.

 

[dunc]

I'd suggest that, as a rule of thumb, you should have at least 1 or 2 rolls each class where you are "fighting for your life"
The rest of the time is in skill development which necessitates operating at lower levels of pressure

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf102]

I think the argument (or at least mine) is more: People state that they know their art works and these moves work because they pressure test them.

But if the person they went against was only going at 50% (and particularly if they don't tell you that directly/you don't realize it), you as an individual have no proof that what you learn would work, even if you think it does. You can trust the process, and trust that the person teaching you has pressure tested it, but your own pressure testing does not validate the system/techniques itself.

Kinda like those videos of people trying out ridiculous grab escapes, that seem to work against the instructor, then they go home and try it out on their friend and aren't able to do it. Because it only works if the person you're going against goes easy on you.

 

[skribs101]

I think the argument (or at least mine) is more: People state that they know their art works and these moves work because they pressure test them.

But if the person they went against was only going at 50% (and particularly if they don't tell you that directly/you don't realize it), you as an individual have no proof that what you learn would work, even if you think it does. You can trust the process, and trust that the person teaching you has pressure tested it, but your own pressure testing does not validate the system/techniques itself.

Kinda like those videos of people trying out ridiculous grab escapes, that seem to work against the instructor, then they go home and try it out on their friend and aren't able to do it. Because it only works if the person you're going against goes easy on you.

This is exactly the point I'm trying to make.

Using the example from before, if I'm going 20% and she's going 100% and she thinks it works, does that give her the same false sense of security that people claim TMAs give?

I've also seen the opposite. The 100-pound woman who feels too scared to compete. Then when she finally goes to a competition, she realizes it's a lot easier when you're facing people that aren't twice your size.

 

[drop bear102]

Try training with wrestlers.

Anyway.

I am still trying to figure out the art form that is flow rolling. The best I have come up with is I start with the idea tgat they can move me. So if they have an arme or something they are strong enough to move it around.

And from that conceit I try to roll competitively.

By the way. I think the pressure testing comments were directed more at Hapkido. And the idea that you have to submit to the move or you get your arm blown out of its socket.

 

[skribs101]

Try training with wrestlers.

Anyway.

I am still trying to figure out the art form that is flow rolling. The best I have come up with is I start with the idea tgat they can move me. So if they have an arme or something they are strong enough to move it around.

And from that conceit I try to roll competitively.

By the way. I think the pressure testing comments were directed more at Hapkido. And the idea that you have to submit to the move or you get your arm blown out of its socket.

Yeah...and I've seen this* in BJJ.

I've used the HKD style take-downs on one of the black belts in my gym. I have also tried using them as take-downs in BJJ only for my opponent to tap while standing, because they don't realize they can accept the take-down to alleviate the pressure.

*By "this" I mean what I had referred to in those discussions, which is that:

• If someone hyperextends your elbow, it will break (also known as an armbar)
• If someone rotates your arm, your shoulder will break (also known as an American or Kimura, depending on the direction of the break).

I don't think that was ever in contention between us. What was in contention was if I could break someone's arm by standing over them and using my shin as a lever without having control over their upper body, which my points were:

1. If you rip an armbar you're going to break someone's arm. (I've seen this as true in BJJ).
2. If you were to rip the submission I am describing, you would break someone's arm.
3. So, because we don't want to break our training partner's arms, we don't rip the submission.
4. By not ripping the submission without a pin, if we relax, we give our partner time to escape.
5. Because our mercy is what gave our partner the time to escape, the reason for their escape is not a flaw in the technique, but rather a design of the training so we don't hurt each other.

Having now trained BJJ, I feel much more confident that I was correct in this assessment of my Hapkido training. Because I've seen people get hurt by ripped submissions (rarely in my gym, frequently in online videos).

Does the HKD playbook work at a high percentage in BJJ? No. But it's not designed to. And I will no longer accept "you just don't know because you've never done BJJ" as an acceptable argument against it. Not that I did before, but it definitely doesn't hold water now.

 

[wab25]

What was in contention was if I could break someone's arm by standing over them and using my shin as a lever without having control over their upper body

Any chance you can point me to a video or picture of this technique? (just out of curiosity.... many times Danzan Ryu and Hapkido have very similar techniques)

 

[Darren]

I remember conversations back when I was mainly a TKD/HKD guy, that centered on the idea that I don't know what I'm talking about because these arts don't pressure test in the same way as combat sports. That BJJ is a far superior martial art because you can go 100% in training without much increase in risk.

What I've found is that (in addition to there being more risk in BJJ than in TKD sparring):

• Upper belts take it easy on me. Nowadays I can give the brown and fresh black belts a run for their money, but more experienced black belts still have their kids gloves on.
• Often when something DOES legitimately work on an upper belt, it's because you caught them sleeping or they're working on their B-game.
• Bigger folks take it easy on me. Even white belts are sometimes holding back their strength or don't want to put their full pressure on me.
• Most folks take it easy on women, especially at my gym where most of the women are white belts.
• There is competition...but you're matched based on age, size, skill, and gender. So it's pressure tested in a very controlled environment.

I'd say for the vast majority of my training, I'd consider my skills "pressure formed", but not necessarily "pressure tested".

depends on what kind of pressure your talking about? Ive had my instructor pressure pin and cement me to the floor were i could not move one muscle, all the while wondering how am i even still breathing but this was when i first started to so he was just trying to teach me not use all my strength which i got after about three years of course so very very use to fighting on my feet and a little in the street and a whole whole whole lot in elementary school so it was like i had to relearn everything i knew about fighting! i mean where else can you fight sitting down, i never ever heard of that. but BJJ has! but yes you want to get top pressure on your enemy cause you don`t want them moving around and slipping your guard or anything. good training.

 

[skribs101]

Any chance you can point me to a video or picture of this technique? (just out of curiosity.... many times Danzan Ryu and Hapkido have very similar techniques)

Finally I found one that shows what I'm talking about. At least the armbar part. This is I would say the most common wristlock take-down we used in the TKD/HKD program. In this video, he shows 3 finishes, the 2nd one is the type of armbar I'm talking about.

As I've mentioned in the past, my TKD/HKD Master was paranoid of anyone stealing his curriculum (as if they'd want to), so he rarely posted any videos of our stuff online.

 

[skribs101]

Unfortunately it's hard to test this stuff in BJJ, because the general idea of HKD is to control someone who's an inexperienced grappler, and most of these types of techniques aren't allowed until blue belt.

 

[wab25]

Finally I found one that shows what I'm talking about. At least the armbar part. This is I would say the most common wristlock take-down we used in the TKD/HKD program. In this video, he shows 3 finishes, the 2nd one is the type of armbar I'm talking about.

As I've mentioned in the past, my TKD/HKD Master was paranoid of anyone stealing his curriculum (as if they'd want to), so he rarely posted any videos of our stuff online.

We do very, very similar stuff in Danzan Ryu. We emphasize different things..... meaning I would pick apart and change a lot of the nuance in his wristlock, to make it Danzan Ryu.... But I don't doubt that the lock works as he demonstrated it, and he is probably doing it correctly for Hapkido. (one day I will find a Hapkido school... I would love to compare and contrast the two arts, especially the nuance in them)

From a Danzan Ryu perspective, anyone telling you that that arm bar with the knee / shin (the second finish you called out), is not a pin, control or submission would be correct. It was never meant to be. It is an arm break / elbow dislocation. The trick is getting to position of his first finish, but once there...

 

[dunc]

So I'd say a few things

On pressure testing:
In BJJ training it's probably possible to coast and not really push yourself to master the techniques. Just train with the easy rolls
However, in my experience there are always some tough competitive people at the belt below you who wanna prove they can tap a higher belt. So as you progress up the ranks this becomes harder and harder to get away with

And what's the point in training any art if you're not going to challenge yourself? If you feel you're not testing your techniques then find someone in the gym who counters your technique and keep working on it until you can do it on them. Then find the next person who stops you doing it and so on
Mastering a technique means making it work against a skilled and fully resisting opponent as opposed to just knowing the movements

On testing other arts in BJJ format:
Go for it! I've made sure that I can perform all the foundational techniques from my TMA against BJJ black belts. Obviously with adjustments because in TMA striking is an important element of the set up and of course you don't perform them too sharply for safety reasons. But it's a great way to make sure your techniques work

 

[drop bear102]

Yeah...and I've seen this* in BJJ.

I've used the HKD style take-downs on one of the black belts in my gym. I have also tried using them as take-downs in BJJ only for my opponent to tap while standing, because they don't realize they can accept the take-down to alleviate the pressure.

*By "this" I mean what I had referred to in those discussions, which is that:

• If someone hyperextends your elbow, it will break (also known as an armbar)
• If someone rotates your arm, your shoulder will break (also known as an American or Kimura, depending on the direction of the break).

I don't think that was ever in contention between us. What was in contention was if I could break someone's arm by standing over them and using my shin as a lever without having control over their upper body, which my points were:

1. If you rip an armbar you're going to break someone's arm. (I've seen this as true in BJJ).
2. If you were to rip the submission I am describing, you would break someone's arm.
3. So, because we don't want to break our training partner's arms, we don't rip the submission.
4. By not ripping the submission without a pin, if we relax, we give our partner time to escape.
5. Because our mercy is what gave our partner the time to escape, the reason for their escape is not a flaw in the technique, but rather a design of the training so we don't hurt each other.

Having now trained BJJ, I feel much more confident that I was correct in this assessment of my Hapkido training. Because I've seen people get hurt by ripped submissions (rarely in my gym, frequently in online videos).

Does the HKD playbook work at a high percentage in BJJ? No. But it's not designed to. And I will no longer accept "you just don't know because you've never done BJJ" as an acceptable argument against it. Not that I did before, but it definitely doesn't hold water now.

Can you perform these moves now that you have all the back of house development needed to make stuff work?

Can you perform these moves traditionally too deadly to spar. In sparring now you understand how to spar grappling?