How much "pressure testing" does BJJ actually do?

[Tony Dismukes107]

Karate did not think Judo was pressure testing, because there are no punches and kicks being thrown. Judo did not think Karate was pressure tested because people were not being thrown, choked and arm barred.

That is ... weird. I have not encountered that.

I've run into people who consider certain arts untested because their techniques don't show up in MMA or in videos of street fights.

I've run into people who think that combat sports aren't suited for "the streets" because they have rules.

I've run into people who consider their own art to be superior to certain others because it's "more complete" or because they spar with harder contact or a host of other reasons.

I've never met a Judo practitioner who claimed that Karate sparring isn't pressure testing because it's focused on striking more than grappling or a Karate practitioner who claimed that Judo randori isn't pressure testing because it only involves grappling instead of striking. I've never met a BJJ practitioner who claimed that boxing sparring isn't pressure testing or a boxer who claimed that BJJ sparring isn't pressure testing. I've never met a Judo or Karate or BJJ or Boxing practitioner who claimed that the weapons-based sparring done by HEMA practitioners or members of the SCA or the Dog Brothers isn't pressure testing, even though Judo, Karate, BJJ, and Boxing usually don't involve weapons sparring.

I have met practitioners of all those arts who would say that the type of Aikido randori where multiple ukes take turns running in and presenting a single simple attack with no attempt to defeat tori's defense is not true pressure testing. However, those same practitioners would say that the type of randori seen in Tomiki Aikido is pressure testing.

Of course, whether something is or is not pressure testing doesn't tell the whole story.

BJJ rolling is pressure testing, but if a BJJ practitioner never spars with strikes then they aren't pressure testing their ability to defend against being punched.
Boxing sparring is pressure testing, but if a boxer only spars under boxing rules then they aren't pressure testing their ability to defend against being taken down.
Light contact point sparring is pressure testing, but if a Karate practitioner only does start-stop style point sparring then they aren't pressure testing their ability to take a hard hit and keep fighting.

And of course, there can be value to lots of different forms of training which are not pressure testing. Drilling techniques with a compliant partner can have value. Heavy bag training can have value. Standing in the middle or a group of training partners and blending with random simple attacks from all directions can have value. There aren't many people who will criticize the existence of training methods which don't fall under the category of pressure testing. The criticism is generally only for practitioners who never do pressure testing.

 

[skribs108]

There aren't many people who will criticize the existence of training methods which don't fall under the category of pressure testing.

I agree with everything in your post except for this.

There are many people online who say if you train anything that can't be pressure-tested in an MMA fight, then your gym is a fraud.

 

[dunc]

I agree with everything in your post except for this.

There are many people online who say if you train anything that can't be pressure-tested in an MMA fight, then your gym is a fraud.

Yeah there are people who think like that, but that’s clearly bonkers as proven by the list of banned techniques in MMA and other combat sports
Doesn’t mean you can’t pressure test set ups (& other elements) for those techniques, but clearly regularly pressure testing them will lose you friends and students

 

[skribs108]

Yeah there are people who think like that, but that’s clearly bonkers as proven by the list of banned techniques in MMA and other combat sports

These folks believe that because it's banned in MMA it doesn't work, because it can't be tested in MMA, therefore it doesn't work.

Even if you have videos of it working in MMA (i.e. eye pokes), "the ref stopped the fight so we don't know what would've happened."

I'm not saying it isn't bonkers, but there are a lot of people out there who are bonkers.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm not saying it isn't bonkers, but there are a lot of people out there who are bonkers.

And the trick is blocking out the noise from those people, even when they come to an online forum and scream the loudest about it.

 

[drop bear109]

Can we, though?

Yes. We can grapple to positional dominance everyone everywhere all the time.

So someone can be trying to kill you. And they can't kill you if you grapple them to submission.

Then you can tear arms off. tmThrow punches or give noogies.

 

[skribs108]

Yes. We can grapple to positional dominance everyone everywhere all the time.

But do we know they're giving us 100%? Do we know why our techniques worked?

 

[drop bear109]

But do we know they're giving us 100%? Do we know why our techniques worked?

You should be able to tell if someone is really coming at you.

Video

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[skribs108]

You should be able to tell if someone is really coming at you.

Video

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That's already been brought up in this thread. Someone with experience usually can. Someone without experience might not be able to. And in my experience, they often don't understand how much someone is holding back.

And if your skills develop with folks often holding back against you, it's very difficult to correctly adjust that barometer. If people usually give you 10%, and then they start giving you 20%, you might start to think that 20% is their max. Then they give you 30%. How do you know when it is?

And this is for someone in the gym, who's not cooked on bath salts.

 

[drop bear109]

That's already been brought up in this thread. Someone with experience usually can. Someone without experience might not be able to. And in my experience, they often don't understand how much someone is holding back.

And if your skills develop with folks often holding back against you, it's very difficult to correctly adjust that barometer. If people usually give you 10%, and then they start giving you 20%, you might start to think that 20% is their max. Then they give you 30%. How do you know when it is?

And this is for someone in the gym, who's not cooked on bath salts.

You need a gym nemesis. That guy where you are both at about the same level. That your ego won't let you loose to.

 

[Wing Woo Gar44]

we can 100% consider someone grappled in to submission as pressure tested.

We have to assume our pitter patter punches in sparring is pressure tested.

Who putter patter punches in sparring?

 

[HighKick1]

The question isn't about the change of efficacy, but the ability to accurately measure it if your opponents aren't always giving 100%.

And this brings us full circle. No one or no style can practice/train full out on some very valid techniques. And there are things that just cannot be practiced full strength in the physical aspect. This is where mental acuity really, really comes into play. When working on a technique that cannot be applied at full power, a person still has to mentally walk through the whole process. Else, they will never get the whole process. In things like rolling where there is usually some degree of setup before you get to that point, there is a clearer progression. With some of the more carnal and violent fist move techniques, there is a much higher level of mental training required to incorporate effectively.

 

[Flying Crane]

And this brings us full circle. No one or no style can practice/train full out on some very valid techniques. And there are things that just cannot be practiced full strength in the physical aspect. This is where mental acuity really, really comes into play. When working on a technique that cannot be applied at full power, a person still has to mentally walk through the whole process. Else, they will never get the whole process. In things like rolling where there is usually some degree of setup before you get to that point, there is a clearer progression. With some of the more carnal and violent fist move techniques, there is a much higher level of mental training required to incorporate effectively.

This goes to my earlier comment about there always being a gap between training and real fighting. That gap always exists. Even in “pressure testing”, however that may be defined, nobody can go all-out 100%. The fact that it is a training situation means that there is some amount of artificiality because safety demands it. All it means is that training partners are applying more and more resistance to make it more difficult to succeed, but there are still limits and it isn’t 100% maximum effort.

A training environment always requires some amount of cooperation. If a certain technique or strategy or scenario is being “pressure tested,” the participants know what the project is, and it is easy for one party to shut the technique down. When you know what the goal is, what technique is being tested, it is easy to defeat it. Some cooperation is necessary if the exercise is going to be meaningful. So gradual resistance within the context of a cooperative arrangement is the best that can be done.

I think people start talking about “pressure testing” and they fool themselves into thinking they are taking it all the way up to real fighting. That simply isn’t true, or at least isn’t sustainable due to injuries and the loss of training partners who are willing to work with a fellow who behaves so recklessly in the training environment.

 

[drop bear109]

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So. How is what you trained different to a real fight?

 

[Kung Fu Wang109]

So. How is what you trained different to a real fight?

A ground fight should involve with punches.

 

[dunc]

Maybe and for sure you need to deal with punches
But if you’re on top and have some skill then in many situations they are not necessary which is better from a self defence point of view I think

 

[Darren]

BJJ does zero pressure testing. Aikido does real pressure testing. You might be surprised by this statement....

BJJ only deals with one on one and they are encouraged to go to the ground. In Aikido, they will regularly train dealing with multiple attackers and run multiple attacker drills. Anyone can deal with one person.... but dealing with multiple attackers is dealing with a lot more pressure.

I can hear it now.... but show me an Aikido student defeat a BJJ student.... if they can handle 3 or 4 guys at once, 1 should be very easy, yet usually the Aikido guy gets taken down and submitted on the ground....

The thing is "pressure testing" is a term we use to show how the other art is not as good as our art. Each art, has a different idea of what "pressure testing" is and what the successful outcome of that test should be. For BJJ that pressure is trying to submit a fully resisting guy in a ground fight, that may have started as a standing grapple. For Aikido, that pressure is trying to remain relaxed and fluid as you blend with multiple attackers. For TKD it is kicking the other guy who is trying to kick you. For Judo, it is throwing the other guy who is trying to throw you. For a Karate Kata contest, it is performing your Kata for the judges, in front of the audience trying to execute the perfect technique, better than the other competitors. These are all different kinds of pressure, and the success for each is defined differently. These produce different results. So, it depends on your goals as a student.

When I hear people say that a certain art does not pressure test their stuff.... what I really hear is that a certain art is aiming for a different result than my art, thus they do not use the same methods as mine. What you really need to do, is to find what results you are looking for and then find the art or school that produces those results.

When I hear schools say that they pressure test their stuff... what I really hear is that they believe that the result they are looking for is the best and only result... and they have adjusted their methodology to support that specific result. In this case, its a marketing term.

I don't think there is anything wrong with different schools looking for different results. I do think that claiming that another art does not pressure test their stuff means that you do not understand what results that art is going after.

If the school you are at, is taking you towards the result that you are looking for.... who cares what others say?

in BJJ you do need stand up to complete it, but in BJJ when your in a triangle leg choke around your neck, or getting your arm ripped out of it socket, or arm breaking right into,kneed in the ribs,gut,face,laid on and smothered, or being choked out with your own darn GI,or belt,then you you get the pleasure of being so penned to the floor and feeling like a bug on its back you don`t even think your can peal yourself off the floor, then, oh before this a couple of trips to the ER in the middle of all this, then you okay..

 

[Kung Fu Wang109]

in BJJ you do need stand up to complete it, ...

The stand up striking game should be included as part of the BJJ training.

When you try to integrate the striking art and the throwing art, you don't have to punch 100% power to hurt your opponent. A 10% power punch on the head should be able to stop the training and start the sparring/wrestling game all over. The 10% punching power added can make the sparring/wrestling training more realistic. Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, Aikido should all adapt this kind of fist flying training with partial power in order to make the training realistic.

 

[dunc]

The stand up striking game should be included as part of the BJJ training.

When you try to integrate the striking art and the throwing art, you don't have to punch 100% power to hurt your opponent. A 10% power punch on the head should be able to stop the training and start the sparring/wrestling game all over. The 10% punching power added can make the sparring/wrestling training more realistic. Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, Aikido should all adapt this kind of fist flying training with partial power in order to make the training realistic.

So it depends on what you're training for and the academy you join and I agree that it's relatively simple to do

The traditionalists (I include myself here) absolutely feel that you should include self defence and some MMA type of training to make sure your grappling is able to adapt to a situation that involves striking
My teacher, who is a famous BJJ competitor, places some emphasis on training in a way that is close to a "real fight". So he will make sure that you can get to the clinch against a striker, that you're on the floor you know how to defend against kicks, that you know the basic self defence curriculum etc
His emphasis on this is relatively light and when I started training with him was more, but is probably sufficient for most people

When I teach BJJ I only focus on techniques that are safe in a situation involving strikes and I also teach MMA encouraging both the BJJ and TMA students to get some exposure to that skillset and training methodology

Having said that I do feel that the BJJ community could do a better job at preparing folks for self defence

And there are many more "modern" academies who only train for the sport / competition format. These often have "not great for a real fight" techniques as a core part of their curriculum. I understand this because the sporting formats are evolving to become more spectator friendly which creates a motivation for folks to concentrate more on winning in these sporting formats

I think this leads to something of a split in the direction of travel for BJJ overall and of course gives fuel to non-BJJ folk who want to criticise the art's effectiveness in a "real fight"

 

[Kung Fu Wang109]

My teacher, who is a famous BJJ competitor, places some emphasis on training in a way that is close to a "real fight".

It doesn't take much to modify a "sport training" into a "combat training". Here is a good example.

In this hip throw video, he totally ignores his opponent's free hand that can punch on his head. This is a bad combat training.

In this leg block video, he wraps his opponent's incoming punch. This is a good combat training.