How much "pressure testing" does BJJ actually do?

[Darren1]

The stand up striking game should be included as part of the BJJ training.

When you try to integrate the striking art and the throwing art, you don't have to punch 100% power to hurt your opponent. A 10% power punch on the head should be able to stop the training and start the sparring/wrestling game all over. The 10% punching power added can make the sparring/wrestling training more realistic. Wrestling, Judo, BJJ, Aikido should all adapt this kind of fist flying training with partial power in order to make the training realistic.

have noticed that, been on my back so much in BJJ that my body has decided to grow eyes in the back of my head just to see the mat! oh well. in BJJ have to get on my knee`s(mild cerebral palsy) think i will start from standing some want to learn how to do that! last time i was sparring this one guy eventually he had me in a arm bar(feel like i should start having them for breakfast,lunch and dinner) but got up on my legs and started to try to pull my arm out of the arm bar, all of a sudden i started falling just out of now where, the fall never bothers me its what i can fall on that bothers me, but i started falling and fell right on top of my head Ive seen other people fall this way and break there necks, seen football players fall that way even with helmets on that ended there careers so that scared me been on my knees ever since that been two years ago. but found out that i can do my stand up rolling on the ground also have to alter it a little.

 

[HighKick]

The question isn't about the change of efficacy, but the ability to accurately measure it if your opponents aren't always giving 100%.

I think we all get that.
Some or even all of this comes from the classroom setting AND the rules of the spar. Absolutely, there are some things you just cannot practice full strength, full speed (think gouging the eyes or punching the throat). But there are ways to effectively practice the skill and condition body parts if needed. It comes down to the high value moves you want to be best at and how deep you want your 'tool bag' to be.
But when we talk submission, I fully think you can train in absolutes. Even if your partner is not going 100%. Strength and the ability to use it is relative for the most part. So, for all you know your partners 80% may be 120% of an assailants. Are you going to fight either of them any different?
For me, it is more important to grapple with people both stronger/Much stronger and more agile than me. This is always my measuring stick. This and realizing there are moves that are very low/no % on certain body types is priceless.

 

[skribs113 133]

But when we talk submission, I fully think you can train in absolutes. Even if your partner is not going 100%. Strength and the ability to use it is relative for the most part. So, for all you know your partners 80% may be 120% of an assailants. Are you going to fight either of them any different?

Or your partner's 20% may be 10% of an assailants.

If your partners are holding back, how well does your technique actually work? If your partner is:

• Not giving you full strength, meaning more resistance might make your technique fail.
• Not giving you full speed, meaning more resistance might close the window before you can take it.
• Not taking obvious openings you leave, meaning more resistance might catch you off guard.
• Purposefully giving you openings or opportunities so that you can work, meaning a more resistance might be more defensively responsible.

When I'm rolling with brand new people, I'll often severely handicap myself. Often I won't even use my hands. They'll be going 110% while I'm basically fully relaxed the entire round. There are times I've actually put my partner's hands in better spots for them because they don't even realize what openings I'm trying to feed them. But if I didn't do this, then I'd just smash them completely and they'd get no work in.

 

[HighKick]

The question isn't about the change of efficacy, but the ability to accurately measure it if your opponents aren't always giving 100%.

I think we all get that.
Some or even all of this comes from the classroom setting AND the rules of the spar. Absolutely, there are some things you just cannot practice full strength, full speed (think gouging the eyes or punching the throat). But there are ways to effectively practice the skill and condition body parts if needed. It comes down to the high value moves you want to be best at and how deep you want your 'tool bag' to be.
But when we talk submission, I fully think you can train in absolutes. Even if your partner is not going 100%. Strength and the ability to use it is relative for the most part. So, for all you know your partners 80% may be 120% of an assailants. Are you going to fight either of them any different?
For me, it is more important to grapple with people both stronger/Much stronger and more agile than me. This is always my measuring stick. This and realizing there are moves that are very low/no % on certain body types is priceless.

Or your partner's 20% may be 10% of an assailants.

If your partners are holding back, how well does your technique actually work? If your partner is:

• Not giving you full strength, meaning more resistance might make your technique fail.
• Not giving you full speed, meaning more resistance might close the window before you can take it.
• Not taking obvious openings you leave, meaning more resistance might catch you off guard.
• Purposefully giving you openings or opportunities so that you can work, meaning a more resistance might be more defensively responsible.

When I'm rolling with brand new people, I'll often severely handicap myself. Often I won't even use my hands. They'll be going 110% while I'm basically fully relaxed the entire round. There are times I've actually put my partner's hands in better spots for them because they don't even realize what openings I'm trying to feed them. But if I didn't do this, then I'd just smash them completely and they'd get no work in.

Well, you are somewhat making the argument. However, you are in a 'training bubble'. Of course you have to treat new people different. Usually, they are either super hyped up and going all out or they are scared and clueless. Both you have to control and lighten up on. This scenario has zero to do with pressure testing. Just training from the ground up.

I don't think we can even begin the conversation until you have a partner that can challenge or usually beats you.

 

[Darren1]

Or your partner's 20% may be 10% of an assailants.

If your partners are holding back, how well does your technique actually work? If your partner is:

• Not giving you full strength, meaning more resistance might make your technique fail.
• Not giving you full speed, meaning more resistance might close the window before you can take it.
• Not taking obvious openings you leave, meaning more resistance might catch you off guard.
• Purposefully giving you openings or opportunities so that you can work, meaning a more resistance might be more defensively responsible.

When I'm rolling with brand new people, I'll often severely handicap myself. Often I won't even use my hands. They'll be going 110% while I'm basically fully relaxed the entire round. There are times I've actually put my partner's hands in better spots for them because they don't even realize what openings I'm trying to feed them. But if I didn't do this, then I'd just smash them completely and they'd get no work in.

that is the thing, find that if i don`t let people arm bar me then action stops, what fun is it if the action stops and your not rolling? but i am getting more use to get laying there relaxing and just let things come, i mean you roll better and don`t run out of wind.

 

[drop bear114 53]

Ok. We just went through a raft of situational drills in preparation for a competition some guys are doing.

All of the situations have 2 victory conditions. So for example start in side control. And the top guy gets the submission or the bottom guy gets the escape.

So you don't have to gift a victory to anyone.

Otherwise. Smother them. Stick your hand over their mouth and nose untill they tap out.

Then they will roll 100%

 

[HighKick]

Ok. We just went through a raft of situational drills in preparation for a competition some guys are doing.

All of the situations have 2 victory conditions. So for example start in side control. And the top guy gets the submission or the bottom guy gets the escape.

So you don't have to gift a victory to anyone.

Otherwise. Smother them. Stick your hand over their mouth and nose untill they tap out.

Then they will roll 100%

I would say you are describing the difference between casual rolling and hard rolling. I like it.

 

[dunc]

Ok. We just went through a raft of situational drills in preparation for a competition some guys are doing.

All of the situations have 2 victory conditions. So for example start in side control. And the top guy gets the submission or the bottom guy gets the escape.

So you don't have to gift a victory to anyone.

Otherwise. Smother them. Stick your hand over their mouth and nose untill they tap out.

Then they will roll 100%

Situational (or specific) sparring is, in my view, the most important part of pressure testing
It allows you to go 100% in situations that are outside of your A game and because you're starting from a bad spot the ego is kinda minimised

I've also found this method to convert much better to TMA and self defence training than free sparring

 

[Tony Dismukes112 8]

But do we know they're giving us 100%? Do we know why our techniques worked?

That's already been brought up in this thread. Someone with experience usually can. Someone without experience might not be able to. And in my experience, they often don't understand how much someone is holding back.

And if your skills develop with folks often holding back against you, it's very difficult to correctly adjust that barometer. If people usually give you 10%, and then they start giving you 20%, you might start to think that 20% is their max. Then they give you 30%. How do you know when it is?

And this is for someone in the gym, who's not cooked on bath salts.

So I would consider this a separate, but related question.

There's "am I pressure testing my skills?"
and there's
"can I accurately gauge the difficulty of my pressure testing relative to a real-world encounter?"

This second question still exists even if everyone in your gym is going 100% every round. If you don't have the experience to tell that an upper belt is only giving you 20% effort, then you probably don't have the experience to know how good your sparring partners are relative to a real-world attacker on the street.

Perhaps you think your sparring partners are a bunch of hardcore badasses, but they actually suck. This can make you misjudge your own abilities just as much as thinking your coach is going 100% when he's only going 10%.

In fact, it's more of a risk. If your coach is only going 10% with you, then he will up the intensity as you progress and you'll realize your mistake. If you train at a gym where your coach and sparring partners just aren't very good, then you may not ever realize it unless you get out from your bubble and test your skills against someone tougher.

This is why I strongly recommend both cross-training and welcoming guests from different backgrounds to your gym.

I make no claims to being an especially tough guy or a super-skilled fighter. But I do think that I have a reasonably accurate idea of my own abilities and limitations. This comes from decades of training and sparring with:

• Boxers (professional fighters, amateur fighters, and hobbyists)
• Muay Thai practitioners (professional fighters, amateur fighters, and hobbyists)
• MMA practitioners (professional fighters, amateur fighters, and hobbyists)
• High school wrestlers
• Collegiate wrestlers
• BJJ practitioners (white to black belt, casual hobbyists to professional competitors)
• TKD and Karate practitioners (various styles and levels)
• Kung Fu practitioners (various styles and levels)
• Judo black belts
• Representatives of many other styles (ninjutsu, Aikido, Kali, Sumo, Sambo, HEMA, etc)
• Strong-man competitors
• Powerlifters
• Cops
• Soldiers
• Bouncers
• Untrained individuals (with various degrees of experience in street violence and natural talent)
• Young guys, old guys, men, women, little guys, big guys, really big guys

... and I have a small amount of experience with real violence outside the training hall.

Honestly, I think this exposure to different types of training partners and opponents and sparring styles does a lot more for being able to judge one's level of ability than just having your regular training partners go 100% in sparring. You might find that you are able to deal with a skilled technician within your style but fall apart when faced with someone 4x stronger. (Or vice-versa). You might handle strikers well, but struggle with grapplers. (Or vice-versa). You might out-point a partner in light sparring, but psychologically crumble in harder sparring when that same partner doesn't mind getting hit and keeps coming forward.

But all this takes time to experience. So to begin with, the best bet is to just find an instructor who will structure opportunities to try your techniques in live environments where you have the opportunity to fail and learn from those failures.

 

[drop bear114 53]

Situational (or specific) sparring is, in my view, the most important part of pressure testing
It allows you to go 100% in situations that are outside of your A game and because you're starting from a bad spot the ego is kinda minimised

I've also found this method to convert much better to TMA and self defence training than free sparring

And if you screw up. You are not under some fat sweaty dude for 5 minutes.

 

[Buka29 3]

Position before submission.
Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.
Keep your hands up, your elbows in and your chin down.
The eyes lie, the feet don’t know how.
When they move you move.
When they go full out crazy, stall them until they’re sucking wind then choke them with their clothes.

 

[HighKick]

So I would consider this a separate, but related question.

There's "am I pressure testing my skills?"
and there's
"can I accurately gauge the difficulty of my pressure testing relative to a real-world encounter?"

This second question still exists even if everyone in your gym is going 100% every round. If you don't have the experience to tell that an upper belt is only giving you 20% effort, then you probably don't have the experience to know how good your sparring partners are relative to a real-world attacker on the street.

Perhaps you think your sparring partners are a bunch of hardcore badasses, but they actually suck. This can make you misjudge your own abilities just as much as thinking your coach is going 100% when he's only going 10%.

In fact, it's more of a risk. If your coach is only going 10% with you, then he will up the intensity as you progress and you'll realize your mistake. If you train at a gym where your coach and sparring partners just aren't very good, then you may not ever realize it unless you get out from your bubble and test your skills against someone tougher.

This is why I strongly recommend both cross-training and welcoming guests from different backgrounds to your gym.

I make no claims to being an especially tough guy or a super-skilled fighter. But I do think that I have a reasonably accurate idea of my own abilities and limitations. This comes from decades of training and sparring with:

• Boxers (professional fighters, amateur fighters, and hobbyists)
• Muay Thai practitioners (professional fighters, amateur fighters, and hobbyists)
• MMA practitioners (professional fighters, amateur fighters, and hobbyists)
• High school wrestlers
• Collegiate wrestlers
• BJJ practitioners (white to black belt, casual hobbyists to professional competitors)
• TKD and Karate practitioners (various styles and levels)
• Kung Fu practitioners (various styles and levels)
• Judo black belts
• Representatives of many other styles (ninjutsu, Aikido, Kali, Sumo, Sambo, HEMA, etc)
• Strong-man competitors
• Powerlifters
• Cops
• Soldiers
• Bouncers
• Untrained individuals (with various degrees of experience in street violence and natural talent)
• Young guys, old guys, men, women, little guys, big guys, really big guys

... and I have a small amount of experience with real violence outside the training hall.

Honestly, I think this exposure to different types of training partners and opponents and sparring styles does a lot more for being able to judge one's level of ability than just having your regular training partners go 100% in sparring. You might find that you are able to deal with a skilled technician within your style but fall apart when faced with someone 4x stronger. (Or vice-versa). You might handle strikers well, but struggle with grapplers. (Or vice-versa). You might out-point a partner in light sparring, but psychologically crumble in harder sparring when that same partner doesn't mind getting hit and keeps coming forward.

But all this takes time to experience. So to begin with, the best bet is to just find an instructor who will structure opportunities to try your techniques in live environments where you have the opportunity to fail and learn from those failures.

I feel this is a chronic issue in "McDojo's". People truly think they are training hard and of value but they just are not.