How much "pressure testing" does BJJ actually do?

[grappler185]

I remember conversations back when I was mainly a TKD/HKD guy, that centered on the idea that I don't know what I'm talking about because these arts don't pressure test in the same way as combat sports. That BJJ is a far superior martial art because you can go 100% in training without much increase in risk.

What I've found is that (in addition to there being more risk in BJJ than in TKD sparring):

• Upper belts take it easy on me. Nowadays I can give the brown and fresh black belts a run for their money, but more experienced black belts still have their kids gloves on.
• Often when something DOES legitimately work on an upper belt, it's because you caught them sleeping or they're working on their B-game.
• Bigger folks take it easy on me. Even white belts are sometimes holding back their strength or don't want to put their full pressure on me.
• Most folks take it easy on women, especially at my gym where most of the women are white belts.
• There is competition...but you're matched based on age, size, skill, and gender. So it's pressure tested in a very controlled environment.

I'd say for the vast majority of my training, I'd consider my skills "pressure formed", but not necessarily "pressure tested".

competition is the best way to test your bjj skills.. nothing comes close and luckily in bjj unlike in any other sport you can test yourself in the absolute division and you can even enter the adult division as a masters athlete and compete with the young guys .. even in the absolute.. and if that was not enough you can take the gi off .. and try your hand in no-gi/ grappling events like NAGA that have often different rulesets than traditional bjj e.g. heel hooks, cloverleaf etc .. it is about as pressure tested as you can get without getting hit in the head ... I actually competed in Judo to see how I would do just using basic takedowns I learnt in bjj and it also gives you another perspective

 

[Buka19]

In California, I took a few classes and 3 or 4 different BJJ schools. (I was constantly training Danzan Ryu, but would try to get out and get some BJJ on the side... but timing never worked out for me to continue) Then, after moving to Florida, I was able to spend 4+ years training BJJ at one school.

For the last 15 years, I have been regularly cross training in Aikido. Our dojo brings in all of the top Aikido instructors from around the world... if they are teaching in Orlando, they are most likely teaching at our dojo. Our Aikido school is led by 3 6th dan Aikidoka under Ikeda Sensei. (who was just here two weeks ago)

Just curious where you are going with your question?

I’m trying to figure out how you came to believe that “BJJ does zero pressure testing. Aikido does real pressure testing.”

I am also curious as to where you were going with that statement?

 

[drop bear102]

competition is the best way to test your bjj skills.. nothing comes close and luckily in bjj unlike in any other sport you can test yourself in the absolute division and you can even enter the adult division as a masters athlete and compete with the young guys .. even in the absolute.. and if that was not enough you can take the gi off .. and try your hand in no-gi/ grappling events like NAGA that have often different rulesets than traditional bjj e.g. heel hooks, cloverleaf etc .. it is about as pressure tested as you can get without getting hit in the head ... I actually competed in Judo to see how I would do just using basic takedowns I learnt in bjj and it also gives you another perspective

And you can get hit in the head if you are keen.

From slap jitsu, to c class to a full blown pro fight.

 

[drop bear102]

I’m trying to figure out how you came to believe that “BJJ does zero pressure testing. Aikido does real pressure testing.”

I am also curious as to where you were going with that statement?

Ok. The argument is quite clever in that it argues specificity.

So for simplicity BJJ pressure tests grappling on the ground. Thats it. Don't ask them to be good at other stuff.

Aikido multiple attackers pressure tests flow in motion. That's it Don't ask them to be good at other stuff.

Does BJJ pressure test flow in motion against multiple attackers? No. Therefore wgat are they even doing?

 

[drop bear102]

My thought process has always been it's the same as a strike. In striking, we pull our punches when training so we don't KO our training partners and rapidly build up CTE. But in a real self-defense situation, a striker is going for the KO so they can neutralize the threat.

Same thing here. If we were to spar with these techniques, we're not going to rip the submission just to prove we had it. We're going to pull the punch (so to speak). We're going to stop before we break the arm. Just like in striking sparring folks will generally recognize what would have been a knockout blow if you followed through, here folks recognize what would have been a broken elbow if you'd followed through.

Exept you can grapple people to submission without taking limbs home.

 

[Darren]

Ive heard that you can`t fight 2 people at the same time in BJJ, but i think you can, you can put one in a scissor leg lock around the neck while balancing on your knee`s or something akin to that(really not that advanced as of yet) while you grab the other guy guy and slam him into the ground? asked this once but never received an answer(not here though) but i believe it is something that should only be done in the street and not on the mats.

 

[skribs101]

Exept you can grapple people to submission without taking limbs home.

Okay. But that's not what we're talking about.

 

[skribs101]

Ive heard that you can`t fight 2 people at the same time in BJJ, but i think you can, you can put one in a scissor leg lock around the neck while balancing on your knee`s or something akin to that(really not that advanced as of yet) while you grab the other guy guy and slam him into the ground? asked this once but never received an answer(not here though) but i believe it is something that should only be done in the street and not on the mats.

 

[skribs101]

I’m trying to figure out how you came to believe that “BJJ does zero pressure testing. Aikido does real pressure testing.”

I don't think he was claiming that, I think he was making a point. That you could easily turn the argument around.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ive heard that you can`t fight 2 people at the same time in BJJ, but i think you can, you can put one in a scissor leg lock around the neck while balancing on your knee`s or something akin to that(really not that advanced as of yet) while you grab the other guy guy and slam him into the ground? asked this once but never received an answer(not here though) but i believe it is something that should only be done in the street and not on the mats.

Multiple opponents is always a bad situation to be in, regardless of what method you train. But tools probably exist within every method/system that a skilled person could use to fight off multiple opponents. One key issue would be to engage each opponent as briefly as possible and not get all tied up with one person, leaving yourself exposed to his buddies. That, and moving and positioning so that you use one enemy to shield against the others until you are ready to deal with them. How that actually manifests would be rather different, depending on the system one trains. But that situation is a challenge no matter the style.

 

[Darren]

If i roll with a lady i let her win all the time! there this one lady in my BJJ class sweet girl but i just can not bring myself to do anything, my very first class i rolled with this one lady and she was on top of me, instructor said to get her off me i just sat up and she rolled right off i felt so bad i just could not do it anymore. i just can`t.

 

[drop bear102]

Okay. But that's not what we're talking about.

we can 100% consider someone grappled in to submission as pressure tested.

We have to assume our pitter patter punches in sparring is pressure tested.

 

[Darren]

competition is the best way to test your bjj skills.. nothing comes close and luckily in bjj unlike in any other sport you can test yourself in the absolute division and you can even enter the adult division as a masters athlete and compete with the young guys .. even in the absolute.. and if that was not enough you can take the gi off .. and try your hand in no-gi/ grappling events like NAGA that have often different rulesets than traditional bjj e.g. heel hooks, cloverleaf etc .. it is about as pressure tested as you can get without getting hit in the head ... I actually competed in Judo to see how I would do just using basic takedowns I learnt in bjj and it also gives you another perspective

i would think that a fist or foot coming you would be the pressure part, blocking and/or getting hit would be the test, if you block it, wonderful muscle memory is working, if you get hit,wonderful you learned something, though not getting hit is the optimum thing to do, either way you learned.

 

[dunc]

BJJ doesn’t teach you how to deal with multiple attackers or weapons which are serious limitations from a self defence perspective. I think most people training understand that

Having said that, BJJ does teach you how to take someone down and utterly control them often without having to injure them. Which is a very useful skill for many (not all) modern self defence situations
There are hundreds of videos out there showing this in the real world so I think it’s safe to say this is proven

In the traditional Japanese arts I also train there are methods for multiple attackers, and it’s possible to train these with a degree of pressure (essentially scenario training). However, I’ve never seen aikidoka effectively training / pressure testing against multiple attackers

Open to the possibility so @wab25 please share any videos of effective pressure testing of multiple attackers

 

[Kung Fu Wang102]

But if the person they went against was only going at 50% (and particularly if they don't tell you that directly/you don't realize it), you as an individual have no proof that what you learn would work, even if you think it does.

Is that what tournament is for? It gives you a chance to deal with a stranger who will fight against you 100%?

I do think proper tournament record should be part of student's ranking test.

 

[drop bear102]

So we have a crew of absolute kill monsters in our gym at the moment. Kids who might have a real chance at the UFC. And they pressure test hard.

And I am 50 and I don't.

And they will be better at BJJ than I will

And so I think the onus is on yourself if you want to be good. You have to put yourself through it.

If BJJ doesn't pressure test. That is on you.

 

[skribs101]

we can 100% consider someone grappled in to submission as pressure tested.

Can we, though?

 

[HighKick1]

I think you're confusing the terms "pressure" and "pressure testing".

In jiu-jitsu, pressure is a concept (and sometimes a submission) where you simply use your weight to make the other person suffer. Pressure is usually applied through knee-on-belly (exactly what it sounds like) or various pinning positions where you get into side control or mount. Kesa gatame is a prime example:

View attachment 34284

However, pressure testing is something completely different. Pressure testing often has little to do with "pressure" as a force, but rather the philosophical pressure of "does it work live?"

An example of pressure testing is: I can nail a scissor sweep during the drilling/technique portion of class. But can I hit it when we get to live rolls? If I can, can I hit it on people that it actually means something to hit it on?

• Maybe it only works for me in drills. My pressure testing is that it doesn't work.
• Maybe it only works for me against white belts that are smaller than me. So I can make it work, but is that the bar?
• Maybe I can make it work on white or blue belts up to my weight class. As a purple belt, that's still not good enough for me.
• Maybe I can hit it on any white belt at will, most blue belts with proper setup (except for that one guy who weighs 375 pounds), I've hit it on several purple belts, and while I haven't finished the sweep on a brown or black belt, I've at least knocked them over and used the ensuing scramble to improve my position.
• Maybe I can even hit it on brown and black belts at will.

The concept of pressure, as a method of inflicting gravity on another person, is mostly absent from the idea of pressure testing, the idea of increasing resistance to your technique until you've hit the point of failure. Maybe "resistance testing" would be a better term for it.

Clearly, semantics are at play, and vernacular matters and is different between styles I suppose. So, let's drop all the MA influence and talk physics.
Pressure is the force applied and resistance is the force opposed. It takes both to train in an effective, tested, fashion. You did a good job of describing the typical change in efficacy through quality training time. But cause and effect is the same.

 

[skribs101]

Clearly, semantics are at play, and vernacular matters and is different between styles I suppose. So, let's drop all the MA influence and talk physics.
Pressure is the force applied and resistance is the force opposed. It takes both to train in an effective, tested, fashion. You did a good job of describing the typical change in efficacy through quality training time. But cause and effect is the same.

The question isn't about the change of efficacy, but the ability to accurately measure it if your opponents aren't always giving 100%.

 

[wab25]

I’m trying to figure out how you came to believe that “BJJ does zero pressure testing. Aikido does real pressure testing.”

I am also curious as to where you were going with that statement?

These guys got most of what I was trying to point out...

Ok. The argument is quite clever in that it argues specificity.

So for simplicity BJJ pressure tests grappling on the ground. Thats it. Don't ask them to be good at other stuff.

Aikido multiple attackers pressure tests flow in motion. That's it Don't ask them to be good at other stuff.

Does BJJ pressure test flow in motion against multiple attackers? No. Therefore wgat are they even doing?

I don't think he was claiming that, I think he was making a point. That you could easily turn the argument around.

I have trained 30ish years of Danzan Ryu, my main art. I have trained 15ish years in Aikido, 12ish years in Shotokan Karate, 4 years in BJJ, 4 years in MMA. Each and every one of those arts consider their own art to be pressure tested and they consider their training to contain sufficient pressure testing. Other arts do not agree that they all pressure test.

The Aikido school I train at, absolutely considers what they do to be pressure testing, as do the other Aikido schools in the area that show up for different events. At the same time, the Judo school that shares space with us, does not consider what the Aikido school does as pressure testing, much like most people here do not consider Aikido to be pressure tested. In fact, the Judo school did not consider what the Shotokan Karate folks did to be pressure testing, even when they saw folks leave with broken noses, broken cheek bones, broken ribs, black eyes, bloody lips.... since they where not grappling and throwing, it was not proper pressure testing by their standards.

However, all the schools believed they were pressure testing and that the other arts were lacking in their pressure testing. What differed was what the goal was. Karate did not think Judo was pressure testing, because there are no punches and kicks being thrown. Judo did not think Karate was pressure tested because people were not being thrown, choked and arm barred. Aikido thought nobody else was pressure testing as they did not do multiple attacker randori where the guy in the middle remained calm and blended with all the attackers. Some Karate schools I came into contact with considered kata contests at a national level, in front of national judges and an audience to be the ultimate pressure testing.

You are never going to get people to change their mind about what is or is not proper pressure testing. So, decide what you see is proper pressure testing and then train to do that. Don't worry about the lens other people use.