High Kicks to the Head

[DArnold]

Ditto—from a TKDist.
If you practice kicking a lot, you're going to be better at it. But there are inherent problems with high kicking in the chaotic situation of a streetfight on broken or uneven ground or a cluttered environment that have nothing to do with anyone's skill in throwing kicks in a dojang training or tournament sparring situation, or other non-life-threatening situation.

I understand what you're saying, K14, but the issue, if you look at the way this thread originated and has progressed, isn't MAist agains MAist. The issue is MAist against belligerant almost-but-not-quite drunk in a pub, who decides that you bother him, or against sadist who decides that he needs to feel good by beating up someone that evening and decides on you, or against road-rage bully who thinks you've cut him off and follows you to your destination—and who's done this sort of thing before... again, please look at my previous post. These are not `contest' situations.

At this point, I'm pretty much inclined to agree with Kosho's request for some visual evidence for the kinds of kicks being talked about, so we have some idea what the distances and scale are. And I'd still like to talk about why we should discount the best advice of people—trained MAists all but also experienced (though unwilling) streetfighters on the basis of individual stories which we're not able to assess—who know what works and doesn't in very close range fighting, because they do it. People who lift cars off their trapped children are not doing the same thing as constructing a Euclidean triangle whose angles sum to 150º. Paul Anderson, maybe the greatest powerlifter of all time, is credited with a back lift of several thousand pounds, easily enough to get a car off a pinned victim, and the accomplishments of the great weightlifters of the past makes it clear that human beings are capable of these feats. But the delivery of very-near-vertical kicks where the minimum distance between the attacker and the defender is less than the sum of the length of the defendent's lower leg plus the distance of the defenders knee to his or her chest... that's what is delicately described in the literatures on pseudoscience and on eyewitness reliability as an `extraordinary claim'. And as the official literature of e.g. the Center for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal puts it, extraordinary claims require extraordinary levels of empirical support.

So far as I can see, then, there is on the one hand a set of anecdotal claims based on unreplicable events that some `miracle' occurred, and on the other hand the collective judgment of self-defense professionals, trained TMAists all with decades of active street violence behind them—a `training' regime which I very much doubt any of us posting on this thread have pursued—who consider high kicks, attempted in nasty, chaotic street conditions in street clothes, to be a very, very bad idea. I know which approach I'd pursue if my life depended on it. But that's just me...

Wow,
I haven't seen it so it's not valid.

Now we move the goal posts even farther.
Do you know that with this logic you have just discredited all your own stories. We haven't seen the people in your books so they don't apply.
Your logic is getting worse unless you meant to call those who have seen and have defended themselves with high kicks liars.
Is that what you meant?
Did you mean to call me a liar, because I have defended myself with high section kicks?
Did you mean to call Kacey a liar because you did not see it?
Please clarify because your logic keeps changing?

So for those of you out there that defended yourself with high section kicks, we now know for a fact that it was a miracle.

I don't know if this is the approch, nor logic, that many would want to take. But as you said, that is just me.

So as far as your experts, you have stated experts who are not experts in the field that you are discussing (High section kicking). Kind of where your logic started to fall apart.

But as far as the situation, BAHH, that is just a matter of focus.
So I don't know why I would lose my ability to hit a target if I'm in a bar, or in street cloathes (well, in the 70's when skin tight jeans were in at the disco it was a problem), or outside. With the logic you have used so far this would extrapolate to you couldn't punch in a bar either. Not sure why the situation would impead my focus.
A target is a target (Book of 5 rings -ahh, you didn't see Musashi so therfore it's not true )

You may now call me St. Doug
:angel:

 

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[DArnold]

DArnold

I guess the little old Lady scenario didn’t make my point. How about as we get older we begin to lose flexibility. How about my style does not teach high kicks and yours does. How about we take two people with no martial arts experience and train them for 1 day, one with head kicks and the other with knee kicks and see how they do. How about the head is harder to hit and the knees are easier. We could debate this until the cows come home but in the end you will have your opinion and I will have mine. Yes the head is very vulnerable to impact and this I will agree on. I guess what we are talking about here is choice, knee or head. I don’t want to get hit in either place. You sound like a very talented individual, good luck.

Thanks,
I probably did get more carried away than I should but some do not realize that juniors read this. I tend to bristle when someone states something based on some bar-room, hand-fighter, and then wants to pass it off to the world, and juniors, as written in stone fact. Could you immagine if everyone did this. Man, this site would look like the Bulshido site.

I agree with everything except that the knees are easier to hit than the head. I find most people protect their knees better than they do their head. (Ahh and those fun loving WTF fighters)
WHOA
Thanks again
DAA

 

[MJS]

But as far as the situation, BAHH, that is just a matter of focus.
So I don't know why I would lose my ability to hit a target if I'm in a bar, or in street cloathes (well, in the 70's when skin tight jeans were in at the disco it was a problem), or outside. With the logic you have used so far this would extrapolate to you couldn't punch in a bar either. Not sure why the situation would impead my focus.
A target is a target (Book of 5 rings -ahh, you didn't see Musashi so therfore it's not true )

You may now call me St. Doug
:angel:

A theory that I like to go by is...environment and target availability dictate what I do. That being said, in a packed club, yes, it may very well be difficult to execute certain things. As I've said in other posts, I'd rather take advantage of a lower target in a situation like than, than risk a high kick. Just last night, I was at the casino watching a show. When that show let out, it was literally a sea of people. Everyone walking in every direction. That being said, if I needed to defend myself, and if I opted to kick, there is a 99.99% chance that if the kick was anything more than a knee, stomp to the foot, or very low line kick, that it would be not effective or even possible to execute.

 

[MJS]

I agree with everything except that the knees are easier to hit than the head. I find most people protect their knees better than they do their head. (Ahh and those fun loving WTF fighters)
WHOA
Thanks again
DAA

IMHO, I think its easier and not as easily telegraphed to target the knee compared to the head. Maybe I'm just not following what you're saying here. Would you clarify please?

Mike

 

[exile]

Wow,
I haven't seen it so it's not valid.

On the contrary, DA. I haven't seen it, and it strains credulity (see what I was talking about in my last post), so I'd like some replicable evidence!

Now we move the goal posts even farther.
Do you know that with this logic you have just discredited all your own stories. We haven't seen the people in your books so they don't apply.

I feel a bit embarrassed by having to put it in these terms, DA; I'm afraid it's going to appear patronizing, and I don't intend that at all. But you seem to be having a very difficult time absorbing the previous discussion, so it may be convenient to break it down in the following way:

1. I am citing the eperience of people whose streetfighting careers are a matter of public record, recognized by MAists in the UK and the other venues where they've made their careers over many years. Their activities have been documented in newspaper stories and gone over with a fine-tooth-comb by member of their local `reality-based SD' communities. And btw, relevant to something you mentioned in an earlier post, they are bouncers, doormen, LEOs both in civilian life and the military, and security consultants and operatives; but they are also high dan ranks in Shotokan, Gojo-ryu and other TMAs, including judo and FMAs. Their work has been read and favorably reviewed by well-informed and well-respected MAists who have experience in this rather unpleasant aspect of MA application, and so far as I know, no one has yet called their street competence or authority into question. That authority rests on decades in the business. So their credentials in this area are bona fide.

2. The issue of plausibility does not arise in connection with the authorities whose views I've alluded to, but rather with the possibility of a head high kick against an attacker in the 1' range. There was, as you may have noticed, some discussion of angles and numbers in the previous posts, and several of us expressed considerable skepticism about the actions described. Kacey posted the following:

As far as those things that can't be explained through graphs, diagrams, geometry, whatever science you choose to apply - those are the things that make this an art. Some things cannot be explained from a purely scientific viewpoint - lifting a car off an injured person is theoretically impossible under normal circumstances - but under abnormal circumstances, people have managed to do it... or perhaps the art is in advance of the science that could someday explain it, just as science has now explained how people can lift cars when they really, really need to.

(emphasis added). So the issue, DA, is whether the events under discussion actually could happen the way they were described, given the issues that arose, which seem to require a geometrically impossible arrangement of body parts—assuming that the kick in question was delivered less than 12" from the attacker's head. If it in fact was not, then things are very different, but the SD range in question Kosho and I were assuming was on the order of a foot to 15". We therefore have a problem seeing the kicks described as applicable in this range and suspect that the distances involved may have been a bit greater than those reported... in what I would describe as the preemptive striking range.

3. So, based on our estimates of what realistic personal self-defense ranges are, we are asking for some more solid corroboration of the possibility of doing these kicks in the SD (as vs. pre-emptive striking) range. All of this is rather self-evident, I think, if you pay a bit of attention to the content of the preceding posts in the thread.

Your logic is getting worse unless you meant to call those who have seen and have defended themselves with high kicks liars.
Is that what you meant?
Did you mean to call me a liar, because I have defended myself with high section kicks?[
Did you mean to call Kacey a liar because you did not see it?

You've read the preceding posts in the thread carefully and you're seriously asking if I was accusing anyone of lying??

Please clarify because your logic keeps changing?

Does the preceding constitute sufficient clarification for you?

So for those of you out there that defended yourself with high section kicks, we now know for a fact that it was a miracle.

On the contrary, DA. I don't believe in miracles, or their invocation as part of any rational explanation. That's why I'm skeptical of the closeness of the estimated distances. The question is whether someone with a 20"–22" lower leg can do the kind of kick Kacey described to the head of an assailant around 12" distant from the defender, when the latter's leg must pass through a position where it's parallel to the ground (hence, seemingly, requiring at least 20"-22" inches separation if the attacker's body is not to interfere with the completion of the kick to the head). Miracles notwithstanding, the numbers suggest to us a minimum separation of close to two feet between the attacker and the defender.

I don't know if this is the approch, nor logic, that many would want to take. But as you said, that is just me.

No comment, DA!

So as far as your experts, you have stated experts who are not experts in the field that you are discussing (High section kicking). Kind of where your logic started to fall apart.

I haven't `stated experts'. You can't `state experts'. You can state facts, or opinions, or information, but experts are something else! :wink1: But once again, you've missed the crucial, fundamental point at issue, DA, and I'm sorry to say it, but you keep doing it!. My references are to people who are experts in self-defense applications of TMAs. They do expermimental work—serious research, of the kind that Iain Abernethy regularly reports on in his newsletter—on SD applications of kata and hyungs. Abernethy is a sixth dan Issin-ryu karateka, and most of the people in what is, in effect, an expermental research group are similarly qualified. Your assumption that they do not know how to execute any high kick you can think of is... well, breathtaking. Given your evident unfamiliarity with about the karateka and TKDists who Abernethy's group comprises, I'm genuinely surprised that you feel comfortable making these kinds of statements about them.

But as far as the situation, BAHH, that is just a matter of focus.
So I don't know why I would lose my ability to hit a target if I'm in a bar, or in street cloathes (well, in the 70's when skin tight jeans were in at the disco it was a problem), or outside. With the logic you have used so far this would extrapolate to you couldn't punch in a bar either. Not sure why the situation would impead my focus.
A target is a target (Book of 5 rings -ahh, you didn't see Musashi so therfore it's not true )

Let me put this as politely as possible: this last quoted section makes no sense whatever. Why wouldn't you be able to punch in a bar? Punching and kicking range are significantly different; I can punch an opponent who's literally pressed up against me. Surely you wouldn claim that you can deliver head kicks to someone who's pressed up against you?

You may now call me St. Doug
:angel:

All right, St. Doug. So I just want to point out that in this, um, debate we're having, you're attempting to defend a certain position and convince the readers of this thread that you're right and I'm wrong. I'm kind of annoyed that you put me in the position of having to do your work for you, but you'd have a much better chance of convincing people if you (i) stopped being so rude to me and other posters—it doesn't bother us and it makes you look mean and petty; and (ii) tried to construct prose that was more coherent. You lose your audience if every paragraph you type leaves people wondering just what it is you could possibly be getting at. I'm all for serious argument and severe disagreement—that's how discoveries are made and the wheat and chaff are sorted out—but if you continue to be as uncivil as you've been, that's what people will focus on, instead of what you have to say, to the extent that they're able to piece that together.

 

[MJS]

Thanks,
I probably did get more carried away than I should but some do not realize that juniors read this. I tend to bristle when someone states something based on some bar-room, hand-fighter, and then wants to pass it off to the world, and juniors, as written in stone fact. Could you immagine if everyone did this. Man, this site would look like the Bulshido site.

You know, you bring up an interesting point with this statement. I agree and disagree with portions of it. Let me explain.

There are countless threads on here discussing TMA and MMA. You will hear the MMAist state that if "X" doesn't work in the ring, its a useless technique. Now, when I hear that, I usually tend to disagree. Just because the MMAist doesnt make it work, doesnt mean that someone else can't. Therefore, my comment, and yours pretty much are in sync.

Now, if I wanted to improve on my takedown defense, there is a very good chance that I'd seek out someone who really understands the ground, such as someone who trains in a grappling art, ie: BJJ, Sambo, Judo or Wrestling. Why? Because their art is based on the ground. Why would I go to another standup art to learn a specialty? That being said, when Exile mentions the folks such as Geoff Thompson, Marc MacYoung, etc., its because these are folks that deal with the real world most likely much more than any of us have or ever will. A bouncer at a club or a police officer is more apt to deal with violence on a regular basis, therefore, despite what we may have done a few times, they've done much more.

Like I said, for myself, during sparring sessions, I've thrown and landed high kicks. Is there room for error? Absolutely. In the real world, if I had to pick between a low or high kick, I'm most likely going to go for the low one.

Mike

 

[jks9199]

Having just read the thread... I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in.

CAN a head-level kick work in a real combat/real self defense situation? Absolutely. People have done it. Of course, you can also probably successfully use a banana peel for self defense under optimum conditions... I don't think I'm gonna add a pouch for a banana peel on my gunbelt, though. In other words -- just because something has worked once, or might work, it's not necessarily a smart idea.

So... since we've established that high kicks can, at least sometimes, work, we have to ask how practical they are for real combat/self-defense. My opinion? Not very. In the real world, we're called on to use self defense skills without warning and under less than ideal circumstances. We tend to be wearing our "normal" clothes, while carrying stuff in our hands, and when we're not warmed up and ready. (In fact, Murphy's Law tells us that we're most likely to attacked when we're nursing a bad back or sore knee or other impairing injury...) The surface won't be a nice, clean, smooth dojo floor; it will be an uneven, messy, slippery surface, with stuff (or other people) in the way.

So... How practical are head high kicks? I'd say not very. I know that in my professional experience, I've never kicked another person outside of some training scenarios; I've tripped them, thrown them, struck them, hit them with a wall... The only real kicking I've done has been to open a door, so that's a little higher than waist level. Generally, my gunbelt and other gear impairs the ability to kick much higher. (It also changes my balance...) Even in plainclothes, there are significant concerns with kicking at all -- and they only multiply with head high kicks. It seems as if others have already addressed most of them; I'm not rehashing them. Suffice to say that life sucks when you're trying to manhandle someone (or keep them from manhandling you) and you fall on your ***.

High kicks are a good training exercise, and they're a good tool for some sparring situations. They're fantastic fun to watch. And, in some circumstances, they're very effective tools for self-defense. They shouldn't be automatically discarded. But they're also not something that probably ought to be in your first rank of choices.

Now -- as to this one "high kick" or "high section kick." I do have a problem with it; I simply can't picture it. I'm not suggesting that it doesn't exist. I'm not suggesting that any of you can't do it. I just can't picture it, as it's been described here. If someone can post a link to a clip of it, or somewhere that it's been described in more detail, maybe I'll understand it. Because right now, all I can imagine it as being is some sort of crescent/arcing kick. I can't see how your foot can go almost straight up without swinging outward.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Ok,

3) Nebuchadnezzar - But not getting that kick off successfully could spell disasterous mistake for the person who threw the kick. Once your foot is off the ground, you're at risk. The higher off the ground, the greater the risk.

some responses:

one - DUH, same disasterous mistake if you punch someone in the pectoral vs the sternum. Or get your hand technique jammed...

two - what makes you think I kick that slow?

three -what makes you think I am going to just stand their like a stork with my leg up in the air - after you puch do you just leave your arm out?

four - Or kick you two, three, ... times in other vital spots?

1) The question was regarding the PRACTICALITY of that type of kick in self defense.

1a) DUHHHHHH, what are the odds of that punch not landing as opposed to that kick landing?

2) Who are you and when did I comment on how fast you kick?

2a) Since you ask, what makes you think you kick that fast?

3) Who stated that the kicker would HOLD THEIR LEG UP after throwing the kick, and when did I say that YOU hold your leg up after kicking?

Again, Kosho's question was regarding the PRACTICALITY of this type of kick in a self defense situation.

You and others are taking this as an attack on your training and you're taking it personally.

This sounds like a lack of confidence in your own training. 'Nuff Said.

 

[MJS]

Speaking as a member here, not a mod., because I'm involved in this thread, but I'd just like to say that we already had one warning already posted in this thread. We have alot of good info in here and I'd hate to see it get locked. Lets do our best to keep the discussions civil to avoid further issues.

 

[DArnold]

1) The question was regarding the PRACTICALITY of that type of kick in self defense.

1a) DUHHHHHH, what are the odds of that punch not landing as opposed to that kick landing?

2) Who are you and when did I comment on how fast you kick?

2a) Since you ask, what makes you think you kick that fast?

3) Who stated that the kicker would HOLD THEIR LEG UP after throwing the kick, and when did I say that YOU hold your leg up after kicking?

Again, Kosho's question was regarding the PRACTICALITY of this type of kick in a self defense situation.

You and others are taking this as an attack on your training and you're taking it personally. This sounds like a lack of confidence in your own training. 'Nuff Said.

Nah, your absolutely correct!
I let someone who obviously has no knowlege of high kicks or what he is talking about get to me.

And not being an expert in BJJ, KungFu, or other styles I couldn't concieve of comeing on to a BBS and spout items about any style that I don't know about, and then call them facts. This is the oldest sales trick in the book and I fell for the sucker punch. LOL

And as the logic to "prove" that high kicks are useful came from people who don't do high kicks, as a skilled MA I am ashamed I didn't see the futility of this arguement. It is the old "My style is better than your style crap".

I can only deduce that the countless people who have saved their lives using high kicks, including myself, must be an illusion since we did not publish it.

I was taken back and suprised on a TKD fourm by questions that all the TKD classes I have ever been associate with around the world teach these basic to beginners.

But alas, I made an assumption, that most on here know, or knew of the capabilities of TKD. And you know what they say about assumptions.
I apologise to those whom I responded to grufflly,
CHEERS

 

[DArnold]

Having just read the thread... I'm gonna throw my 2 cents in.

CAN a head-level kick work in a real combat/real self defense situation? Absolutely. People have done it. Of course, you can also probably successfully use a banana peel for self defense under optimum conditions... I don't think I'm gonna add a pouch for a banana peel on my gunbelt, though. In other words -- just because something has worked once, or might work, it's not necessarily a smart idea.

So... since we've established that high kicks can, at least sometimes, work, we have to ask how practical they are for real combat/self-defense. My opinion? Not very. In the real world, we're called on to use self defense skills without warning and under less than ideal circumstances. We tend to be wearing our "normal" clothes, while carrying stuff in our hands, and when we're not warmed up and ready. (In fact, Murphy's Law tells us that we're most likely to attacked when we're nursing a bad back or sore knee or other impairing injury...) The surface won't be a nice, clean, smooth dojo floor; it will be an uneven, messy, slippery surface, with stuff (or other people) in the way.

So... How practical are head high kicks? I'd say not very. I know that in my professional experience, I've never kicked another person outside of some training scenarios; I've tripped them, thrown them, struck them, hit them with a wall... The only real kicking I've done has been to open a door, so that's a little higher than waist level. Generally, my gunbelt and other gear impairs the ability to kick much higher. (It also changes my balance...) Even in plainclothes, there are significant concerns with kicking at all -- and they only multiply with head high kicks. It seems as if others have already addressed most of them; I'm not rehashing them. Suffice to say that life sucks when you're trying to manhandle someone (or keep them from manhandling you) and you fall on your ***.

High kicks are a good training exercise, and they're a good tool for some sparring situations. They're fantastic fun to watch. And, in some circumstances, they're very effective tools for self-defense. They shouldn't be automatically discarded. But they're also not something that probably ought to be in your first rank of choices.

Now -- as to this one "high kick" or "high section kick." I do have a problem with it; I simply can't picture it. I'm not suggesting that it doesn't exist. I'm not suggesting that any of you can't do it. I just can't picture it, as it's been described here. If someone can post a link to a clip of it, or somewhere that it's been described in more detail, maybe I'll understand it. Because right now, all I can imagine it as being is some sort of crescent/arcing kick. I can't see how your foot can go almost straight up without swinging outward.

Mr. Jim,
Are you a law inforcement agent?
Since the mentioning of your gun belt.


I need clarification to explain what you can't picture.

A front kick is done anywhere from the sternum down. As the ball of the foot must be horizontally level with the target, thus your knee must be higher and when you kick the knee drops so that the striking tool travels straight into the target (at a 90 degree angle)

As all TKD kicks are defined against an opponent of your own size, then obviously this would change against opponents of varying size.

This by physics is the most power that you can impart into an object, also why breaking competitions are done at belt level.
Simple physics.
If not your striking tool goes into the target at an angle that is how you loose power. (Vector physics)

There is no such thing in TKD as a high front kick because you would have to bring your knee above a head high target. Virtually impossible.

At this point we are talking about a high kick which is where you change the tragectory up to a 45 degree angle (depending on your distance from your target).
You still bring the knee up first but your targets also change, to say the point of the chin.

Chuck Norris used to use this all the time. The infamous scene where one person is holding each arm and the bad guy is in his face saying, "Yeah, your in for it now"
In which case he kicks straight up into the opponents chin (ball of foot or heel, no matter). Do you have to lean back, sometimes, but as you kick you can lean forward with your body mass, and as a leg weighs a bit more than your head, usually the lean is for focus, not power.

When I first started fighting PKA they showed us films of a really great Heavy weight fight, one fighter had the other on the ropes in a clinch, just then the fighter on the inside stepped back about a foots distance away from the other fighter, he did a high kick and lifted the other fighter clear up and over the top rope and out of the ring. (This was a great video that was supposed to discourage everyone from doing PKA and to let you know what you were in for)

A high section kick is not a kick but mearly a denotation of an area on the body, shoulder and above. It can be any kick done above shoulder level.
So I could kick you in the temple, filtrum, point of chin, mandibular angle, vegas nerve, ganglea connection... with a:

- turning kick
- crescent kick
- verticle kick
- reverse turning kick
- hook kick
- twist kick
- high kick
... and the list goes on
... with a variety of foot, or leg striking tools...

all of which will put you down if done properly.

 

[MJS]

Nah, your absolutely correct!
I let someone who obviously has no knowlege of high kicks or what he is talking about get to me.

And not being an expert in BJJ, KungFu, or other styles I couldn't concieve of comeing on to a BBS and spout items about any style that I don't know about, and then call them facts. This is the oldest sales trick in the book and I fell for the sucker punch. LOL

And as the logic to "prove" that high kicks are useful came from people who don't do high kicks, as a skilled MA I am ashamed I didn't see the futility of this arguement. It is the old "My style is better than your style crap".

I can only deduce that the countless people who have saved their lives using high kicks, including myself, must be an illusion since we did not publish it.

I was taken back and suprised on a TKD fourm by questions that all the TKD classes I have ever been associate with around the world teach these basic to beginners.

But alas, I made an assumption, that most on here know, or knew of the capabilities of TKD. And you know what they say about assumptions.
I apologise to those whom I responded to grufflly,
CHEERS

Well, hopefully I can get a sincere answer to these questions and not one hidden with sarcasm. My questions are as follows:

1) When faced with a situation, do you always opt for a high kick or do you base your response to the conditions present at that time?

2) Would you describe the encounter(s) in which you used the high kick?

Mike

 

[DArnold]

Well, hopefully I can get a sincere answer to these questions and not one hidden with sarcasm. My questions are as follows:

1) When faced with a situation, do you always opt for a high kick or do you base your response to the conditions present at that time?

2) Would you describe the encounter(s) in which you used the high kick?

Mike

No problem, I would be happy to share with you offline.

 

[Hand Sword]

Personally, For the street, I'd never kick to the head unless the opponent is on their knees or the ground. Kicking high can get your leg caught up on their shoulders with a simple reflexive response. Which leads to you on the ground, and them on top of you.

 

[14 Kempo]

I believe kicking to the head is valid in a fight situation ... of course, for me, that is after I've buckled them with a kick to the groin. However, even in this situation, being a Kempoist, I would most likely drop them with a hand strike from this position, or maybe a knee to the face.

Ditto—from a TKDist.

Cool, we agree on this point.

In a practice situation, kicks to head level are conceivable, balance is comprimised while on one foot, especially with the other foot some 6 feet off the ground, but again, it is practice. There is no doubt that TKD, and other kicking arts, practitioners are much more effective kicking to higher levels, I truly believe that, kicking is thier art's way. As a Kempoist, my training has me trying to be in a body check situation with a kicker, constantly checking legs, pinning arms and striking to vital areas. (I've never studied TKD or another art of that type, so I know I'm making assumptions, don't quote please)

If you practice kicking a lot, you're going to be better at it. But there are inherent problems with high kicking in the chaotic situation of a streetfight on broken or uneven ground or a cluttered environment that have nothing to do with anyone's skill in throwing kicks in a dojang training or tournament sparring situation, or other non-life-threatening situation.

You made my point for me, thank you, I dropped the ball here. I do it in the dojo, I practice it, and for me it works for a point in sparring, but is not something I, personally, would do in a street situation, ever, unless they are doubled over and although I'm hitting the head, it is at belt level. Whether I'm checking the legs and arms of a TKD artist, or a half drunk street fighter, it's all the same. It's how I practice, it's how I fight. What I was trying to say here is that if it were done, a kicking art would have a better chance of pulling it off than would I.

Don't get me wrong here, I'm in no way saying that a kicking art would not have a chance against a Kempoist, what I am saying is that I try to jam them, keep them off balance, take their favorite weapons away ... but then again, they are trying to do what they do best and it can go either way at any given time! It's a matter of space, they want to work from their space and range, I'm trying to work from mine. Whoever finds it, has a better chance of coming out on top in that particular confrontation. With most ranked kicking artists, it can very often only take one good shot.

I understand what you're saying, K14, but the issue, if you look at the way this thread originated and has progressed, isn't MAist agains MAist. The issue is MAist against belligerant almost-but-not-quite drunk in a pub, who decides that you bother him, or against sadist who decides that he needs to feel good by beating up someone that evening and decides on you, or against road-rage bully who thinks you've cut him off and follows you to your destination—and who's done this sort of thing before... again, please look at my previous post. These are not `contest' situations.

Here I was trying to let people know that I was in no way trying to say Kempo is better than a kicking art, to avoid getting into a flame war. I made a reference to a fight between a kicker and a puncher, whether it is me against TKD, or me against a street fighter that likes to kick, it's all the same. I can only speak for myself and I try to do just that. No matter who I'm up against, I'm going to evaluate the situation and deal with it. What I said here is that I am a Kempoist, I will take my opponents weapons away, whether or not that opponent is a kicker or a puncher, I'll try to take the weapon of choice away, make them change up.

I will add here that I will do what is necessary to survive in an altercation. If that means using my feet from a distance, I'll do it. closer in, punches, done. Even closer, knees, elbows, hooks and uppercuts, I'll deal it. If it goes to the ground, not where a Kempoist wants to be, but I'll deal with it.

My point in the original post, which I guess I failed to make, was that a TKD or kicking stylist will have a better chance of pulling off a high level kick than will I. I won't speak for all Kempoists, some are more flexible and better balanced than am I, so they may see a high level kick as an advantage, their call. We all do what works for us.

 

[jks9199]

Mr. Jim,
Are you a law inforcement agent?
Since the mentioning of your gun belt.

Yes.

I need clarification to explain what you can't picture.

A front kick is done anywhere from the sternum down. As the ball of the foot must be horizontally level with the target, thus your knee must be higher and when you kick the knee drops so that the striking tool travels straight into the target (at a 90 degree angle)

As all TKD kicks are defined against an opponent of your own size, then obviously this would change against opponents of varying size.

This by physics is the most power that you can impart into an object, also why breaking competitions are done at belt level.
Simple physics.
If not your striking tool goes into the target at an angle that is how you loose power. (Vector physics)

There is no such thing in TKD as a high front kick because you would have to bring your knee above a head high target. Virtually impossible.

At this point we are talking about a high kick which is where you change the tragectory up to a 45 degree angle (depending on your distance from your target).
You still bring the knee up first but your targets also change, to say the point of the chin.

Chuck Norris used to use this all the time. The infamous scene where one person is holding each arm and the bad guy is in his face saying, "Yeah, your in for it now"
In which case he kicks straight up into the opponents chin (ball of foot or heel, no matter). Do you have to lean back, sometimes, but as you kick you can lean forward with your body mass, and as a leg weighs a bit more than your head, usually the lean is for focus, not power.

When I first started fighting PKA they showed us films of a really great Heavy weight fight, one fighter had the other on the ropes in a clinch, just then the fighter on the inside stepped back about a foots distance away from the other fighter, he did a high kick and lifted the other fighter clear up and over the top rope and out of the ring. (This was a great video that was supposed to discourage everyone from doing PKA and to let you know what you were in for)

A high section kick is not a kick but mearly a denotation of an area on the body, shoulder and above. It can be any kick done above shoulder level.

I'm still unclear how a person may kick upward without the shin, ankle and foot extending past the knee. The knee is a hinge joint; wherever you raise it to, and whatever you call it -- if you're kicking forward, the lower portion of the leg has to arc outward. I can place a front kick into a person's chest at surprisingly close range; namely, inside my own arm length. But I've not seen anyone able to deliver that motion above the chest.

Right now, it appears to me that you're locked on a "we're talking high kicks; we must be talking TKD" mindset, and that anyone who doesn't do TKD or doesn't feel that high kicks are automatically and perfectly acceptable for real use doesn't know what they're talking about. It seems to me if a vast number of people with real world experience feel that high kicks are seldom an ideal choice for the real world situations -- they might be onto something. If it were only one person, or only a group of people who train together, I'd suspect maybe it was only their experience. But that's not the case. It's lots of people, from many systems, who say that.

Yet, even then, I didn't say that they were absolutely impractical and never useful. Nor did I discount anyone's personal experience. But -- my experience, my professional training, and what I've been taught in more than 20 years of martial arts training all say that, in the real world, the utility of high kicks is limited. When you don't have a safety net of rules, they leave you vulnerable to multiple defenses and counterattacks. They rely on stable footing, and, should they miss, they very likely will leave you off balance. They expose numerous vulnerable targets on your own body. Now, perhaps you're comfortable training and preparing only to defend against drunken frat boys and homeless bums. I'm not; my world says that I have every likelihood of having to defend myself who has trained at least as much as I have, in a much harder school than almost any of us here have trained in. And who feels no hesitation about doing serious bodily harm to me.

 

[exile]

You made my point for me, thank you, I dropped the ball here. I do it in the dojo, I practice it, and for me it works for a point in sparring, but is not something I, personally, would do in a street situation, ever, unless they are doubled over and although I'm hitting the head, it is at belt level. Whether I'm checking the legs and arms of a TKD artist, or a half drunk street fighter, it's all the same. It's how I practice, it's how I fight. What I was trying to say here is that if it were done, a kicking art would have a better chance of pulling it off than would I.

There's a very well thought out school of thought within TKD that takes the same perspective you do, K14. Simon O'Neil published an article in Taekwondo Times back in 2005... I think I've lost my copy of that issue alas so can't be more specific—in which he discussed the role of kicking in TKD as reflected in competitive sparring as vs. the role that the hyungs assign kicks. The Palgwe series of forms, for example, has only a few tokens of kicks per hyung, and they were originally low (big chunks of the Palgwes are taken over whole from the Pinan/Heian kata, but resequenced). As O'Neil discusses in his article, and explores in detail in his Combat_TKD publications, the hyungs use mostly hand techs for deflection and striking, with kicks playing a decidedly secondary role, as setups for finishing strikes to head, neck, throat, eyes or collarbone, or still nastier moves like sharp neck twists. This is the military TKD of the
RoK Marines and Tiger Commando units during the 1950s and 60s, and an increasing number of us in TKD train the art that way, with all of the old techs—locks, pins, throws and so on that the Kwan era TKD had, at least in some of the kwans. Dang, I wish I hadn't lost that article...

Here I was trying to let people know that I was in no way trying to say Kempo is better than a kicking art, to avoid getting into a flame war.

No danger of that, 14K! We tend not to have that kind of argument here. I've seen it happen, someone starts up along those lines and it's like a piano dropped on them! It's regarded as trolling behavior and people who do that sort of thing don't last long on the board. And by the same token, most people don't look for that kind of interpretation of what other people are saying, just because it's pretty alien to the culture here...

I made a reference to a fight between a kicker and a puncher, whether it is me against TKD, or me against a street fighter that likes to kick, it's all the same. I can only speak for myself and I try to do just that. No matter who I'm up against, I'm going to evaluate the situation and deal with it. What I said here is that I am a Kempoist, I will take my opponents weapons away, whether or not that opponent is a kicker or a puncher, I'll try to take the weapon of choice away, make them change up.

I know, that's a very Kempo-ish kind of strategic idea, from what little I know about it.

I will add here that I will do what is necessary to survive in an altercation. If that means using my feet from a distance, I'll do it. closer in, punches, done. Even closer, knees, elbows, hooks and uppercuts, I'll deal it. If it goes to the ground, not where a Kempoist wants to be, but I'll deal with it.

My point in the original post, which I guess I failed to make, was that a TKD or kicking stylist will have a better chance of pulling off a high level kick than will I. I won't speak for all Kempoists, some are more flexible and better balanced than am I, so they may see a high level kick as an advantage, their call. We all do what works for us.

I agree, a TKDist trains kicks a lot more than most other karate-based MAists, and I think you did communicate that idea (you guys, if I'm not mistaken, do a lot more flow drills than TKD people do, by and large). But in the close range, my choice of weapons will very likely be the same as what you've described as your own preferences...

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

....And as the logic to "prove" that high kicks are useful came from people who don't do high kicks, as a skilled MA I am ashamed I didn't see the futility of this arguement. It is the old "My style is better than your style crap".

I can only deduce that the countless people who have saved their lives using high kicks, including myself, must be an illusion since we did not publish it.

I was taken back and suprised on a TKD fourm by questions that all the TKD classes I have ever been associate with around the world teach these basic to beginners.

But alas, I made an assumption, that most on here know, or knew of the capabilities of TKD. And you know what they say about assumptions.
I apologise to those whom I responded to grufflly,
CHEERS

No, it isn't. It was about the practicality of high kicks in a self defense situation. One simple question.

As to the rest is an insincere response. :sadsong:

 

[Carol]

There is a poster on MT that can talk about this much more competently than I can. I hope he corrects me if I'm saying anything amiss here.

High kicks are not uncommon in Southeast Asian/Indochinese arts. Sikaran's signature kick is a wheel kick that targets the vunerabilities of the back of the head/neck. Vovinam's signature kick is a flying scissors kick to the front neck. These are battlefield arts. The concept was to kill the enemy in such a way that didn't exhaust all the energy out of the fighter....because in wartime environment, the fighter may have to kill over and over again.

I can't perform these kicks. Perhaps I will be able to someday but they are not in my arsenal now. If I could, they certainly wouldn't be the first weapon I reach for. But personally...I'd still like to work my way there.

I'll suprise the hell out of myself if I can do it too... :lol: