High Kicks to the Head

[DArnold]

I'm glad someone got it. My objective in starting this thread was to discuss the effectiveness of high kicks in SD. That is not to discount them altogether but to intelligently discuss how they could be utilized as well as debunk myths associated with this technique. Unfortunately for some people this technique seems to be a sacred cow to some and this debate has degraded to a debate of the use of kicks in close range. Please, note the amount of times I've stated a high kick could work.
[/i]

I don't agree with this statement. The arm has less distance to travel and is innately faster.

Some very good points here pertaining to the successful application of high kicks in SD.

The hook kick you describe would be viable in close range and has been mostly overlooked so far in the discussion. Personally, I would not be comfortable on one leg for even .1 seconds that close to an attacker.

LF, it seems you are one of the 1st pro-high kick posters to acknowledge range as a critical issue in the use of kicks. I think it is unwise for someone who uses a technique that is dependant on range due to physiological restrictions not be a big student of distance and timing.

The use of a Hook Kick to the head or a Crescent Kick is possible within close range but the high front (don't debate me on terms) as has been discussed on the majority of this thread up to know in my view only applies to close range in mythology and Power Rangers. Anyone who disagrees with me is free to prove me wrong with a tape measure and a video camera.

As far as the "treatment" of Kacey you find shameful. I don't see it the same way. Some of the details of the story were being called into question - not in the sense of accusing her to be lying but in that details were not making sense but she has since acknowledged that the distances may have been different than she described initially.

I think it's been agreed by most that given the right set of circumstances they can work even if it's not the strategey we would chose. Perhaps we could elaborate on right and wrong circumstance as well as how to spot and create opportunities. I'd be interested in what those of you who train & prefer head kicks would have to say about this.

_Don Flatt

I think it can be agreed by most that given the right set of circumstances punching can work even if it's not the strategy we would chose.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying as high kicks are only one more tool. What I questions is the logic of the questions used when such statements like the above are used.

All you need to do is apply most all of the question posed here to any technique and you see how silly the questions are?

Therefore, once you see how silly the qustions are it just boils down to using the proper technique to the proper sitiuation. If this technique is not part of your arsenal, then it is your loss.

For example you state that range is critical to kicking. Is it not critical to hand techniques? What would make anyone think that when learning high section kicks you would not be learning distancing and timeing for them as well?

The following exercise will help.
Answer the following questions but replace kick with punch and kicking with punching.
All high section kicking questions answered.

Is the distancing the same on all kicks?
Can I stike with different parts of the foot?
Must my leg be fully extended when it strikes?
Can I lean forward and back when kick?
Can you change the timeing of your kick?
Can you fake with kicks?
Can you thow multiple kicks?
Can you move while kicking?
Should I hold my kick out after the technique.
Should I kick slow?

Youl find that the same rules of physics and body dynamics apply to your arms apply to your legs.

If you want to learn these facets about kicking and become a power ranger (your pun, not mine) you may want to find a good TKD instructor as you do not learn from a BBS or a book. You learn by experienced instruction from experts in the fields.
Good Luck

 

[DArnold]

Exile,
In all fairness to people who favor the High Kicks we should allow discussion on pre-emptive High Kicks because that's probably the area of SD they'd be the most useful.

Since the majority of us agree that most kicks can not be performed in close range and those that can are too risky for most of us. I'd also like to hear how those whose first choice of weapon would be a kick to the head regain the necessary range and how they deal with an attacker's momentum once they've gotten too close.

_Don Flatt

Ok,
Back up and be clear!
I did not say it was or is always the first choice, but mearly A choice. The problem came to being when someone stated that high section kicks do not work and then tried to pass it off as FACT. This has already been debunked. My statement was that this person is claiming things about which they are obviously inexperienced. Then everyone started with the what if game. what if you miss... Also, in no manner did I ever say that I would not use hands, elbows, knees...

So as you stated, basicly the majority of you agree that you have never been trained and do not know how to use high section kicking. Therefore it is not understood and too risky. (I just paraphrased what you said above) That is a much clearer statment than they don't work and that is FACT

About your points, many of them you can easly answer.

How do you set up the kick to gain the necessary element of surprise?

How do you set up a punch to the head to gain the necessary element of suprise. Fakes, faints, lead-in techniques, misdirection, timeing, distanceing...

Which kicks are easiest to throw with the least amount of telegraphing?

Lead leg, less movemtent of the body, less telegraphing, quicker. If your looking for specific techniques, just as hands that depends on the situation which is a matter of training. Do you use a hook at long range? Different kicks have different applications and work in different situations. just like hands. How long would it take you to explaine the many ways to use your hands?

Which kicks are most applicable in different terrains, environments, attire, & with cold unstretched muscles?

Which hand techniques are most applicable in different terrains, environments, attire & with cold unstretched muscles.

In the event you've missed the kick or it didn't knock the attacker out, now what?

In the event you've missed the kick or it didn't knock the attacker out, now what?

 

[kaizasosei]

i think it is good to use kicks like any other strike with the added caution to not be surprised the moment you're off balance.

i would think usually for most all people, there is no kick that is not completely untelegraphed. people are often more sensitive and ready to deal with kicks. maybe certain suckerfrontkicks, or a tkd backkick with the targetperson unable to see just why or how you raised your knee.
but it is possible to begin using footwork, stancework and other parts of body such as arms to conceal the upcoming kicks.
i saw this once in a movie when i was a kid and ended up actually practicing; there was this one kungfu master who would not move his upperbody in the slightest when he kicked. in the movie it was cool because he really didn't move a centimeter kicking practically in all directions. after a while i noticed aside from the physical, there is something worthwhile practicing this because just as left and right are separated so can be also upper and lower.
it's like you look someone straight in the eye and then suddenly your foot shoots into their mouth as you smile casually unmoved above the waist.

i do think that skill and flexibility are needed for good striking with kicks.
the problems with striking well or not with kicks exists with punching too. being on one leg may be unbalanced, but everything depens on....depends on...there are weakness and strengths everywhere if one search diligently and make use of ones senses and knowledge.
otherwise, everything is is up chance, but true skill waits for certain victory.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Is the distancing the same on all kicks?

No. But the actual range is determined by the individual's anatomy. The majority of kicks will be similar in range.

Can I stike with different parts of the foot?

Yes, but some parts are more delicate than others.

Must my leg be fully extended when it strikes?

No. If the leg is fully extended when it strikes the technique will have no penetration on the other hand if it is not extended enough the technique will be jammed.

Can I lean forward and back when kick?

Sure. How much do you want to do that on the street or in close proximity to a dangerous foe?

Can you change the timeing of your kick?
Can you fake with kicks?
Can you thow multiple kicks?

Sure. What's the point? These are valid strategies for kicks in sparring or in the dojo/dojang not necessarily the best approach for the street with a dangerous attacker.

Can you move while kicking?

No. You can move before kicking or kick while already moving but you can not move while kicking.

Should I hold my kick out after the technique.
Should I kick slow?

I suppose this is meant to be an answer for those who have said kicking puts you at risk for the "shot". Why is it you feel that other's are not taking your mobility in consideration, yet it seems you do not consider the mobility of others?

Youl find that the same rules of physics and body dynamics apply to your arms apply to your legs.

And you'll find that physics, body dynamics, and simple logic teaches us that; the arms are shorter than the legs and fit into tighter spaces than legs can, the arms are closer to the head and therefore don't have to move as far to reach the head, legs are required to initiate body movements such as walking-jumping-stepping-running, it's possible to cirlcle around your opponent throwing continuous strikes with the arms, you can hit someone in the head with your hands without specialized flexibility or leaning, and your favorite: the legs are significantly more powerful than arms.

Gee you're right those are stupid questions.

_Don Flatt

 

[jks9199]

I'm only adressing a few points for the moment.

#4 you lost me here. Ok, I knock them out. does that mean that the proper follow up is????

And if your kick doesn't knock them out, whether it's because you missed or they just didn't go down so easy... what then? What's your follow-up, because it's been my experience both in the ring and in the streets that people aren't nearly so easy to knock out as TV suggests... And, there's a good chance that they won't be alone... That might affect my choice to do something that could leave me unbalanced, or worse...

#6 And standing on a slipper surface does not affect hand techniques????
Or a high friction factor would not stop you from moving your feet to do a punch?

Anytime you attempt to deliver power standing on one foot, whether with a punch (yes, it can be done) or a kick, you place a lot of reliance on that foot and knee. And a lot of stress and torque. Most kicks magnify this... I kind of feel that it's a less than ideal situation to kick someone in the head, only to dislocate or injure my knee, meaning I can't run away. But maybe that's just my silly opinion...

#7 If these are the only two high section kicks you know of and are trained in!

Again -- many of us don't seem to be able to understand this amazing kick that manages to go upward in less space than we can figure out. I know what's coming... We obviously aren't privileged to have a great TKD instructor teach us. Again -- if I'm kicking high, my knee must raise up. Let's assume that I actually place my knee flush on my chest; I still don't see how you can extend the lower leg straight up without swinging it outward or around.

#8 I don't know, do you have the nads to punch someone???? What is the difference?

I do believe that LawDog was suggesting that it does require a certain amount of courage to throw the head level kick on the street, given that there are inherent concerns.

As I've said several times -- there are indeed circumstances where a high level kick is practical for self defense. But, they're few and far between.

 

[Kosho Gakkusei]

Ok,
Back up and be clear!
I did not say it was or is always the first choice, but mearly A choice. The problem came to being when someone stated that high section kicks do not work and then tried to pass it off as FACT. This has already been debunked.

I'm curious as to when that was said and by whom? I don't recall that on this thread. I do recall several incidents of people trying to claim some things as possible that are biomechanicly impossible or highly implausible at best. Such as a claim of a front high section kick delivered standing only 18" away from an opponent or people that can kick to the head so fast that they deliver head kicks at 3 times most people's punching speed.
But no one has stated that high kicks don't work on this thread!
Many have brought up what I would call legitimate risks with the technique.
_Don Flatt

 

[MJS]

Last Fearner,
You are correct for chideing me and I am deserving of that.

Speaking for myself here...I've been on this forum for a long time. I've interacted with some great people. One thing that impresses me, is when someone shows the ability to be humble. Things are said in a nice fashion. Things that do not impress me: When people have to brag about high rank. Did you or anyone else do this? I dont know..did you?

Like the assumption (which you did not make) where someone said, "Well, what if your in shoes and street cloathes". As if no one who practices high kicks ever thought to practice in shoes or steet cloaths, or outside, or on uneven surfaces. Could you really conceive that no one who does high kicks every really thought about this? Man, if these questions were followed to their natural conclusions then everyone in TKD or that uses high section kicks would be a moron and deserve to have their butt kicked.

Looks like you're addressing Adept with this, but I thought I'd comment. Perhaps the above comment was directed at me..maybe, maybe not. In any case, if this is something you do, great. However, you should know that you need to adapt what you do to the environment you're in. Will that high kick always work?

Myth, Is the distance longer. Sure. But there are more factors at play than distance, sure. If trained your legs can be faster than your arms. I know people who could kick you in the head three times before your hand could be raised from your shoulder level to cover your face. It was Bill Wallace who taught me to work out with a speed bag with my kicks. I think he knew what he was doing!

So, you're saying that if faced with a boxer who has their hands up, your leg will be faster, coming from the ground, than their hand which is already up? BTW, I dont know how you hold your hands, but mine are already up near my head.

Shoot range? Ok, yes, and punching puts you within that range also??? So run in and let me use my knees on you like MT. Or as anyone knows when you start to attack you will open up and I can kick you agian. Any time you go on offence you are in a vulnerable position. Unless you have figured out a way to attack and not open up. This is what most call coming-and-going at the same time. Not possible.

Are you an offensive or defensive fighter? Likewise, when you kick, you're open as well.

Every technique be it hand or foot derives its power from the ground.
A boxer can not do a knock out punch without twisting their feet on the ground. Many make it sound like when you kick you leave your leg up and stand like a stork. When you walk you lift your foot off the ground and based on this could fall or slip. When you kick at mid section or at low section (Knee, groin...) do you also fall over or just stand there and let your opponent decimate you? Can you do multiple techniques when kicking lower or follow with hands? If not their then why not when kicking high?
When applied to high section , do all natural laws of physics and fighting stop applying? The basis of your mass is approximately where your hips are and in order to maximize power in any technique you use your hips, which in most all cases requires you to move/pivot your feet. It again narrows down to if you practice this.

Nobody said anything about a stork. LOL! Its easier to throw a low kick and fire off another, compared to mult. high kicks. Unless you're talking about throwing more than one kick while your leg is up, which then, yes, you will look like a stork, on 1 foot. Your foot needs to come down before you can throw another kick. Its going to take time from that height.

Why? can you not thow a full lenght punch without warmups and a loose shirt? I don't know many MA's who have reverted to disco pants as they understand this. Also, as most injuries do not occure in the muscles (they will usually stretch 150% before tearing) This means you must be more aware of the joints and your extension as this is where most injuries occure. However, this is the same as punching, jumping, spinning... I have never heard anyone say, "Wait you can't attack me until I warm up"
What amount of injuries occure fighting vs. moving around in your home?

So, without warming up, you're capable of throwing a high or jumping kick?


Mike

 

[Kacey]

No. But the actual range is determined by the individual's anatomy. The majority of kicks will be close in range.

They might be for you - they're not for me... but some of that depends on your definition of close, medium, and long range. I have kicks - as well as hand techniques - that work in all of those ranges. For kicks to the head, yes, they are more likely to be short range kicks... but not necessarily.

Yes, but some parts are more delicate than others.

Some parts of the foot are more delicate than others - but the same thing can be said for parts of the hand, as well. This is where proper technique comes into play - you will perform as you practice, so if you consistently practice proper technique, using the appropriate tool surface (hand or foot) for the technique you're doing, I don't see why this would be a problem.

No. If the leg is fully extended when it strikes the technique will have no penetration on the other hand if it is not extended enough the technique will be jammed.

Again - this is different from hand techniques, how? If a punch, or knifehand, or any other hand technique is fully extended when it strikes the technique will have no penetration, while if it is not extended enough the technique will be jammed.

Sure. How much do you want to do that on the street or in close proximity to a dangerous foe?

It depends on the situation. I cannot give a definite "I will always do X in Y situation" because SD situations, by their very nature, are fluid.

Sure. What's the point? These are valid strategies for kicks in sparring or in the dojo/dojang not necessarily the best approach for the street with a dangerous attacker.

I don't recall anyone disputing that some things work better in one environment than another - but because a technique does not work for you in the dojang or in the street, does not mean it cannot work for anyone else as well.

No. You can move before kicking or kick while already moving but you can not move while kicking.

Sure you can... when I do it, I call it skip kicking, or jump kicking, or sliding... Again, because it works for me, and the people who trained me and those I train, doesn't mean it works for you.

I suppose this is meant to be an answer for those who have said kicking puts you at risk for the "shot". Why is it you feel that other's are not taking your mobility in consideration, yet it seems you do not consider the mobility of others?

Of course it's meant for himself and those he knows; why would he speak for people he doesn't know? You perfect what you practice; if you are convinced something doesn't work, why would you practice it, and if you don't practice it, then you won't be able to do it.

And you'll find that physics, body dynamics, and simple logic teaches us that; the arms are shorter than the legs and fit into tighter spaces than legs can, the arms are closer to the head and therefore don't have to move as far to reach the head, legs are required to initiate body movements such as walking-jumping-stepping-running, it's possible to cirlcle around your opponent throwing continuous strikes with the arms, you can hit someone in the head with your hands without specialized flexibility or leaning, and your favorite: the legs are significantly more powerful than arms.

Again... you are welcome to your opinion; my training and experiences teach me otherwise. If you train your legs, your feet can become faster than an untrained person's hands - and given that my legs are longer and stronger than my arms, I'd just as soon kick someone before they get into hand range. Does that mean that all attackers will be untrained? No. Does it mean that kicking is my only response in every situation? No. But it does mean that I will train every technique I can, practice every technique I am taught, explore every possible application I can, so that when I do need to defend myself, I will react quickly, reflexively, from my training, instead of missing an opening because someone not familiar with my training told me that the technique appropriate to the opening "doesn't work". Does that mean that high section kicks are the answer in any situation? Of course not... but neither are knee level kicks, punches to the sternum, or any other technique you could name. The situation dictates the response; to think otherwise is to blind yourself to possibilities.

Gee you're right those are stupid questions.

_Don Flatt

"Stupid is as stupid does" Forrest Gump

And if your kick doesn't knock them out, whether it's because you missed or they just didn't go down so easy... what then? What's your follow-up, because it's been my experience both in the ring and in the streets that people aren't nearly so easy to knock out as TV suggests... And, there's a good chance that they won't be alone... That might affect my choice to do something that could leave me unbalanced, or worse...

And if your punch doesn't knock them out, whether it's because you missed or they just didn't go down so easy... what then? What's your follow-up? (etc.)

Based on your training and experiences, you may be off-balance after you kick - I'm not. Did I lose my balance while kicking when I was learning how to kick? Of course I did... and I learned how to kick faster, to not lose my balance (the faster you kick, the less time you have to lose your balance, or be unbalanced by an opponent or poor footing), and so on. When I started TKD 20 years ago, I fell down just getting into stance - so does that mean stances are worthless too? No - it means I was badly coordinated and had bad balance. Was I able to punch without losing my balance sooner than kick? I honestly don't remember - but based on my experience with my own students, it was pretty close.

Anytime you attempt to deliver power standing on one foot, whether with a punch (yes, it can be done) or a kick, you place a lot of reliance on that foot and knee. And a lot of stress and torque. Most kicks magnify this... I kind of feel that it's a less than ideal situation to kick someone in the head, only to dislocate or injure my knee, meaning I can't run away. But maybe that's just my silly opinion...

As I've said repeatedly, you react the way you train, and you train based on what you've been taught and what you understand. If you've been taught that head-high kicks are slow, unbalanced, dangerous, and not useful - then you're going to train them in that fashion, and for you, they will be just that - slow, unbalanced, dangerous, and not useful. I was trained with a different theory, and therefore have a different understanding of what high sections kicks are and can do.

Again -- many of us don't seem to be able to understand this amazing kick that manages to go upward in less space than we can figure out. I know what's coming... We obviously aren't privileged to have a great TKD instructor teach us. Again -- if I'm kicking high, my knee must raise up. Let's assume that I actually place my knee flush on my chest; I still don't see how you can extend the lower leg straight up without swinging it outward or around.

Lean your body back for a the minimal time needed to clear the person's body and then forward again to kick the person under the chin. This is, admittedly, difficult to describe, and hard to do without a demonstration - and I'm sure many people will say that this "leaning" will place you off balance - but if done properly and with the correct timing, you are no more off balance than with any other technique that has been properly trained.

I do believe that LawDog was suggesting that it does require a certain amount of courage to throw the head level kick on the street, given that there are inherent concerns.

I don't believe anyone has disputed that. But then, it takes a certain amount of courage to throw any technique on the street, given that there are inherent concerns... is the person really attacking me? Am I really in danger? Can I run, or must I fight? How many of them are there? Are they armed? Do they want my stuff, or to rape me? If they only want my stuff - they can have it - rape is a different issue... and so on.

As I've said several times -- there are indeed circumstances where a high level kick is practical for self defense. But, they're few and far between.

See above, and thank you for stating your concerns in a courteous fashion. Please let me know if you have further questions.

 

[DArnold]

No. But the actual range is determined by the individual's anatomy. The majority of kicks will be close in range.

Yes, but some parts are more delicate than others.

Thus the foot has many tools, just as the hand!

No. If the leg is fully extended when it strikes the technique will have no penetration on the other hand if it is not extended enough the technique will be jammed.

Same as the arm. they both still follow the laws of physics and body dynamics with a power stoke..

Sure. How much do you want to do that on the street or in close proximity to a dangerous foe?

You never lean when doing a hand technique?

Sure. What's the point? These are valid strategies for kicks in sparring or in the dojo/dojang not necessarily the best approach for the street with a dangerous attacker.

So you practice things that you never use?

No. You can move before kicking or kick while already moving but you can not move while kicking.

Really? I can hop, slide, jump off one leg.... And jumping and skiping are done while kicking. I have always been mobile. Who would just stand and kick and expect their opponent to walk into it. That seems silly!

Single kicks, multiple kicks, kicking with both legs at the same time...

I suppose this is meant to be an answer for those who have said kicking puts you at risk for the "shot". Why is it you feel that other's are not taking your mobility in consideration, yet it seems you do not consider the mobility of others?

I know that both hands and feet are mobil. But many imply that you can just grab my leg and throw me over. Only my grandmother kicks that slow. So that was the point. You don't punch slow enough for people to grab, neither is kicking. Besides, while your grabbing my leg with both hands then I can have fun punching you in the head or kicking you in the head with the other foot!

And you'll find that physics, body dynamics, and simple logic teaches us that; the arms are shorter than the legs and fit into tighter spaces than legs can, the arms are closer to the head and therefore don't have to move as far to reach the head, legs are required to initiate body movements such as walking-jumping-stepping-running, it's possible to cirlcle around your opponent throwing continuous strikes with the arms, you can hit someone in the head with your hands without specialized flexibility or leaning, and your favorite: the legs are significantly more powerful than arms.

Granted, not everyone body structure will support high kicks. However on the other hand a vast majority never work at it so that is a good excuse.

Arms are shorter, when your at arms lenght... so am I

legs are just as fast and accurate so distanceing, as far as timing goes, is a moot point.

I never consider leaning specalized as everyone does it eveyday.

Legs are more versital than most know. I.e. the example one person gave of hook kicking you in the back of the head while in a clinch.

Legs are not expected. (I could side kick you in the head while our shoulers are touching.)

It os possible to circle around your opponent throwing continous kicks.

And so tit for tat...
You are mearly stating your preferances based on your training, but applying your training to other styles is about as fun as underestimating your opponent.

At no time have I ever stated that I would not use my other weapons. Or that I had to use high kicks first. The weapon is not a choice I make but rather made by the holes in my opponents armor.

I have 4 weapons, you have 2
I love the odds!

 

[Kacey]

So, without warming up, you're capable of throwing a high or jumping kick?

Yes. It may not be quite as high as when I am warmed up - but it will be high
enough to be effective... which is why I practice kicking above the head of my tallest student (6'1") - if I can kick him in the head and higher, then I don't have a whole lot of problems with most people... and it's also one reason why I don't wear skin-tight jeans! Loose cut is so much easier to move in...

 

[MJS]

Yes. It may not be quite as high as when I am warmed up - but it will be high
enough to be effective... which is why I practice kicking above the head of my tallest student (6'1") - if I can kick him in the head and higher, then I don't have a whole lot of problems with most people... and it's also one reason why I don't wear skin-tight jeans! Loose cut is so much easier to move in...

In addition to the reasons already listed on the pros/cons of this subject, I'm going to take a slight turn with my questions.

-Obviously you've been doing this for a while. I'm sure you must have had the chance to see many people of various shape, size and flexability. In your opinion, if trained properly, regardless of body genetics, would even the least flexable person be able to kick head height and higher?

-I think you mentioned how tall you were, but I forgot which post it was in. Anyway, I'm going to assume you're shorter than the person you're speaking of. You're in full balance thru-out the entire kick? How much or how far do you have to lean over in order to execute this kick to his head?

-When you're throwing the head high kick to this person, I'm assuming you're in a gi? Although you're wearing loose fitting jeans, you're still capable of executing that same kick?

 

[Kacey]

In addition to the reasons already listed on the pros/cons of this subject, I'm going to take a slight turn with my questions.

No problem... and those are good questions, too.

-Obviously you've been doing this for a while.

You could say that... I've been in TKD for 20 years; like Terry, I am a IV Dan, but in the ITF, that's expert rank, not master. Anyway, there're always people around who know more, or are better at something, or younger, faster, stronger... you get the idea.

I'm sure you must have had the chance to see many people of various shape, size and flexability. In your opinion, if trained properly, regardless of body genetics, would even the least flexable person be able to kick head height and higher?

As an absolute? I doubt it - but I've never said that head high kicks are for everyone or every situation either; I've merely said that they can be appropriate in certain situations, and that I've heard - and sometimes seen - some of those situations. I will say, however, that every student I've had who was serious about their training became more flexible over time, and quite a few students who came in unable to kick above their knees were kicking the height of their own shoulders or higher by green belt - about a year. Very few are unable to kick head high by that time - but there are always some people who just aren't good at it; some don't practice, some have back or knee or hip problems that prevent it, and so on.

Some of high kicking is flexibility; some of it is momentum. Static stretches are good for flexibility, and certainly, people with flexible legs are generally better at kicking in general - and therefore high section kicking - than people who are less flexible. But some people who are - based on static stretch distance, as an example - less flexible, are better at high section kicks than the more flexible, because they have better balance, because they practice more, because they set themselves a goal to kick a certain height with a certain amount of control and focus... it's very individual.

-I think you mentioned how tall you were, but I forgot which post it was in. Anyway, I'm going to assume you're shorter than the person you're speaking of. You're in full balance thru-out the entire kick? How much or how far do you have to lean over in order to execute this kick to his head?

I'm 5'5" - so yes, I'm a lot shorter than the student I mentioned, who is one of those tall, slender, disgustingly flexible people... but my focus is better than his (something about 18 years more practice... ). And yes, I'm in full balance throughout the kick, and for high kick, which goes straight up (knee up as high as it will go, then let the lower leg flip up so the sole of the foot is up, ball of foot extended, toes back) I don't lean unless I have to lean back slightly to clear the body of the person I'm aiming at. I don't extend my foot until the very end of the kick, which gives me a little more clearance on the body, as well. This kick is pretty hard to explain in writing... but if you have access to a horizontal target (hands are good - but they have to be on other people!) try it yourself - start out about shoulder high (lower if you need to) and see - the motion, except for your knee being bent, is very much like a rising/stretch kick.

-When you're throwing the head high kick to this person, I'm assuming you're in a gi? Although you're wearing loose fitting jeans, you're still capable of executing that same kick?

Yes, and yes. Any height I lose due to the constriction of the jeans is made up by the length of my shoes; since I usually train barefoot, and I usually wear jeans and sneakers to work (I spend way to much time kneeling next to student desks to wear anything that's not sturdy), it more or less balances out.

 

[jks9199]

And if your punch doesn't knock them out, whether it's because you missed or they just didn't go down so easy... what then? What's your follow-up? (etc.)

What's my follow-up? It all depends. My comment was a reaction to DArnold's difficulty with LawDog's post. DArnold seemed to be absolutely certain that once he throws his head kick, the fight's over. And -- maybe it is. All I know is that even the best martial artists I've had the privilige to train with and know feel that they need to plan beyond one-strike/one-kill. I haven't seen many people able to come off of a head high kick, especially one thrown with knock-out power and intent, without some compromise in their balance. But that is just my experience; there's is undoubtedly someone out there who can do it. But there's a second concern; while your foot is up there, you can be knocked over very easily. If the guy you're kicking isn't alone... You can be knocked to the ground with very little effort. Low kicks are much more easily turned into steps to reacquire balance -- and if you're foots already close to the ground in a step, it's even easier.

Based on your training and experiences, you may be off-balance after you kick - I'm not. Did I lose my balance while kicking when I was learning how to kick? Of course I did... and I learned how to kick faster, to not lose my balance (the faster you kick, the less time you have to lose your balance, or be unbalanced by an opponent or poor footing), and so on. When I started TKD 20 years ago, I fell down just getting into stance - so does that mean stances are worthless too? No - it means I was badly coordinated and had bad balance. Was I able to punch without losing my balance sooner than kick? I honestly don't remember - but based on my experience with my own students, it was pretty close.

Actually, my training has emphasized returning to stance and balance after I kick (or punch). But, in the real world -- things don't always work that way. Throw a kick with boots on; your leg carries much more momentum than bare or even sneakers. Same thing happens sometimes when you make contact with something or someone. And, again, in self defense you have to account for the possibility (or probability) that the one guy you're dealing with has friends.

As I've said repeatedly, you react the way you train, and you train based on what you've been taught and what you understand. If you've been taught that head-high kicks are slow, unbalanced, dangerous, and not useful - then you're going to train them in that fashion, and for you, they will be just that - slow, unbalanced, dangerous, and not useful. I was trained with a different theory, and therefore have a different understanding of what high sections kicks are and can do.

Lean your body back for a the minimal time needed to clear the person's body and then forward again to kick the person under the chin. This is, admittedly, difficult to describe, and hard to do without a demonstration - and I'm sure many people will say that this "leaning" will place you off balance - but if done properly and with the correct timing, you are no more off balance than with any other technique that has been properly trained.

This is the first post that mentioned the hip adjustment. It makes more sense now. Thank you. As to the effect of leaning and balance... that's very variable. And I know you're not talking a held backwards leaning pose... Each style has its own principles and rules. As I mentioned, I know I can generate knock out power with multiple punches thrown while standing one one foot, even though many systems would say there's no power in that position. Adjusting your balance for the brief moment to lean the hips back as I believe your describing makes sense. But let me throw one monkey-wrench in... Can you do that wearing the belts, pants and shoes you normally do?

See above, and thank you for stating your concerns in a courteous fashion. Please let me know if you have further questions.

Courteous and respectful responses go a long way in furthering communication and understanding. The appreciation is mutual.

 

[howard]

Ok,
So as you stated, basicly the majority of you agree that you have never been trained and do not know how to use high section kicking. Therefore it is not understood and too risky. (I just paraphrased what you said above)

That's not what he said at all.

Here's an excerpt of what you yourself quoted from his post:

"Since the majority of us agree that most kicks can not be performed in close range and those that can are too risky for most of us. I'd also like to hear how those whose first choice of weapon would be a kick to the head regain the necessary range and how they deal with an attacker's momentum once they've gotten too close..."

There is nothing in that comment that leads logically to the conclusion that he has never been trained in high kicking (although he may never have - insufficient information from that quote). Acknowledging that most of us agree that high kicks are risky at close range in no way implies that the poster does not know how to do them.

I trained high kicks for several years in Ji Do Kwan. Used them in sparring all the time. My teachers were guys who could knock the taste out of your mouth with their high kicks. I understand them well. I acknowledge that I'm now too old to use them effectively, and that I haven't trained them in years, but even when I was younger and still able to throw them, I never would never have used one in self defense - least of all at close range. Not because I don't understand them. No, because I believe there are far more appropriate techniques for close-range fighting. Low kicks; hand, knee and elbow strikes; joint locks; throws; takedowns, pressure point attacks to the face and neck - I find any of these preferable to a kick to the head.

IMO, you simply need to acknowledge that there are at least a few of us in this thread who: a). have trained high kicks, and know how to throw them; and b). have concluded that they are inappropriate for a close-quarters self defense situation, especially when ranked on a probability scale of highest to lowest likelihood of success. It's no big deal - it doesn't mean we don't believe you couldn't pull off a high-kick self defense. It simply means that we've concluded through training and experience that there are better ways.

 

[MJS]

As an absolute? I doubt it - but I've never said that head high kicks are for everyone or every situation either; I've merely said that they can be appropriate in certain situations, and that I've heard - and sometimes seen - some of those situations. I will say, however, that every student I've had who was serious about their training became more flexible over time, and quite a few students who came in unable to kick above their knees were kicking the height of their own shoulders or higher by green belt - about a year. Very few are unable to kick head high by that time - but there are always some people who just aren't good at it; some don't practice, some have back or knee or hip problems that prevent it, and so on.

Some of high kicking is flexibility; some of it is momentum. Static stretches are good for flexibility, and certainly, people with flexible legs are generally better at kicking in general - and therefore high section kicking - than people who are less flexible. But some people who are - based on static stretch distance, as an example - less flexible, are better at high section kicks than the more flexible, because they have better balance, because they practice more, because they set themselves a goal to kick a certain height with a certain amount of control and focus... it's very individual.



I'm 5'5" - so yes, I'm a lot shorter than the student I mentioned, who is one of those tall, slender, disgustingly flexible people... but my focus is better than his (something about 18 years more practice... ). And yes, I'm in full balance throughout the kick, and for high kick, which goes straight up (knee up as high as it will go, then let the lower leg flip up so the sole of the foot is up, ball of foot extended, toes back) I don't lean unless I have to lean back slightly to clear the body of the person I'm aiming at. I don't extend my foot until the very end of the kick, which gives me a little more clearance on the body, as well. This kick is pretty hard to explain in writing... but if you have access to a horizontal target (hands are good - but they have to be on other people!) try it yourself - start out about shoulder high (lower if you need to) and see - the motion, except for your knee being bent, is very much like a rising/stretch kick.



Yes, and yes. Any height I lose due to the constriction of the jeans is made up by the length of my shoes; since I usually train barefoot, and I usually wear jeans and sneakers to work (I spend way to much time kneeling next to student desks to wear anything that's not sturdy), it more or less balances out.

Thanks Kacey. Great reply. Obviously, there are two different camps, and its unlikely that either side will budge, but in the long run, I guess it comes down to what each of us is capable of doing, how each of us was trained, and the goals we're looking to achieve.

edit to add: I have thrown head height kicks in the ring, but as for when its time to defend myself, I'd prefer to keep 'em low. The arts I've trained in are not known for high kicks. If someone is capable of pulling one off in a SD situation, thats great. For myself, I'd prefer to taking a lower risk route, but thats just me...and maybe a few others here too.

 

[exile]

I have thrown head height kicks in the ring, but as for when its time to defend myself, I'd prefer to keep 'em low. The arts I've trained in are not known for high kicks. If someone is capable of pulling one off in a SD situation, thats great. For myself, I'd prefer to taking a lower risk route, but thats just me...and maybe a few others here too.

With a better understanding of the dynamics of this kicks from the recent posts and discussions, I became aware that this is a kick I do, and have done for quite a while, and can do under dojang conditions securely and hard enough that someone standing in front of me about 22" away minimum would get a hell of a shock to their brain and maybe a disassembled lower jaw. No question. And it's also clear to me that it would be impossible for me to have delivered it in any of the actual street fights I've ever been in, at least with the bottom of the jaw as the target, given my proximity to the attacker. I'm actually quite secure with this kick—and I wouldn't dream of risking using it in response to a typical attack initiation move, with so many lower risk moves that allow my elbows, forearms and knifehand strikes to come into play.

 

[MJS]

With a better understanding of the dynamics of this kicks from the recent posts and discussions, I became aware that this is a kick I do, and have done for quite a while, and can do under dojang conditions securely and hard enough that someone standing in front of me about 22" away minimum would get a hell of a shock to their brain and maybe a disassembled lower jaw. No question. And it's also clear to me that it would be impossible for me to have delivered it in any of the actual street fights I've ever been in, at least with the bottom of the jaw as the target, given my proximity to the attacker. I'm actually quite secure with this kick—and I wouldn't dream of risking using it in response to a typical attack initiation move, with so many lower risk moves that allow my elbows, forearms and knifehand strikes to come into play.

Well, thats my thought, as you know. For myself, I'd much rather target the groin or the leg. Then again, if you look back at a good portion of the MMA fights, you'll see Thai kicks to the leg. Sure, from time to time, you see a high kick, but the majority are all low.

 

[exile]

Well, thats my thought, as you know. For myself, I'd much rather target the groin or the leg. Then again, if you look back at a good portion of the MMA fights, you'll see Thai kicks to the leg. Sure, from time to time, you see a high kick, but the majority are all low.

The legs are a great and probably underrated target, at least in KMAs. They're much more accessible, much harder to miss, and require far less range of motion than head shots, and if someone can't stand, or at least can't stand comfortably, they're not going to want to continue the fight all that much. And a groin shot... again, not the easiest to hit, but a lot of advantages.

Simon O'Neil pointed out in his TKD Times article a couple of years back that a hard strike to the knee or just below triggers a reflexive throwing back of the head by the assailant... opening up the throat to a `rising block' (forearm strike to the throat), a sequence actually recorded in one of the very early Taegeuks. Funny, that...

 

[MJS]

The legs are a great and probably underrated target, at least in KMAs. They're much more accessible, much harder to miss, and require far less range of motion than head shots, and if someone can't stand, or at least can't stand comfortably, they're not going to want to continue the fight all that much. And a groin shot... again, not the easiest to hit, but a lot of advantages.

My Kenpo instructor will put on some protective gear, similar to a redman suit. We'll spar and/or run thru techniques, which allows me to really unload and specifically target the legs. UFC 7 is one example that comes to mind. Marco Ruas threw some hard Thai kicks at the legs of Paul Varleans (sp) which took quite a toll on him. One of the Extreme Fighting matches, featured Maurice Smith vs. Marcus Silveria. Mo threw a number of kicks at the legs of Marcus. His hands eventually started to drop and he pulled off a head kick, which resulted in a KO. Viable move? Sure, but notice he hit the legs to set up the head.

Simon O'Neil pointed out in his TKD Times article a couple of years back that a hard strike to the knee or just below triggers a reflexive throwing back of the head by the assailant... opening up the throat to a `rising block' (forearm strike to the throat), a sequence actually recorded in one of the very early Taegeuks. Funny, that...

See, those katas have fighting application after all.

Mike

 

[Carol]

Kickin' it old school with the pride of Boston.

Mr. Pedro Xavier, Mr. Ronald Brady, Mr. Donald Brady.

Enjoy

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