Do most fights really go to the ground?

[jks9199]

i take brazilian jiu jitsu and that 90 to 95% of all fights going to the ground is actually true because that's where most fights end up after they get in the clinch. i am an orange belt in bjj and if we go to the ground in bjj we are tought how to get back up on our feet properly. and no we don't pull guard or fall to the ground looking for all those submission's because that would just be plain stupied. we do ground work in my art but we also learn how to take the fight to the ground and then securing a joint lock or choke hold. too many people get confused with sport bjj and the self defence bjj. we also throw our attacker to the ground and either strike him or joint lock him. i have alot of background's i tried karate but didn't like it. i tried aikido but we didn't learn much joint locks and finally im in bjj which i found out was a very effective self defence art. now i train in a mixed martial arts self defence class
which i have expanded my self defence knowledge faster then in my bjj class. im still taking jiu jitsu but im also taking kickboxing not contact but shadowboxing which i think is pritty fun. im also a student assistent instructor in the kids class i work on their bjj skills and i help my instructors teach the techniques to them along with other assistent student instructors around me.

Sorry -- but that's inaccurate. I'm not going to rehash everything in this thread, but those figures came from a study of POLICE encounters which often go to the ground as a control measure, and have a different objective (control, subdue, and arrest the person) from self defense.

 

[billc]

Try rolling around on Gravel. That wouldn't be any fun at all. What happens if you fall on a sidewalk that is all broken up or half on a curb and half off. Against multiple attackers being on the ground could be a bad place to be. Multiple attackers kicking you when you are down there could really hurt. Some people might kick at the head. Getting punched in the head is no fun, getting kicked in the head when you are immoblile on the ground could be a lot worse. Running is a good plan though.

 

[Brother John]

The way I see it, I don't care that much about percentages. In my line of work as a corrections officer and in the years I spent as a bouncer in a college town "Club", I've been in and seen a great many fights and scrapes go down. Fighting is manifest chaos and beyond most quantifiable aspects. Fights happen when you're standing, seated, on the ground, from the back, multiple people, weapons (improvised and not).....You NEVER Know. IF you train to be able to protect yourself and your loved ones, don't exclude anything. Train for it ALL. Ground is just one aspect, and one that's gained a lot of air time due to the popularity of fighting sports. The UFC/PRIDE/K1........whatever else, are FUN to watch....I'm an enthusiast myself!! They've also opened many eyes to the need to be well versed in many things! But they're a sport, plain and simple. The chaos factors are taken out to a large extent, as they should be. REAL combat can't be adequately compared to any other thing. I personally think that anyone that says differently is THEORIZING.

Your Brother
John

 

[elder999]

EVen in MMA, in bouts where one opponent is clearly trying to go to the ground, all fights do not "go to the ground."

Pereira used to say about the streets of the Bronx,"You see the crap that's down there? Broken glass, gum, cigarette butts, needles, dog ****! You don't wanna be down there....and what if he has friends?"

Good to train for it, and to train to avoid it. It's kind of hard to run once you've pulled full guard.....:lol:

 

[Hudson69]

This is based off of my LEO experience and is a little off track: When police have to take somebody into custody it will often end up on the ground but now adays that is the end of the fight; at least for my current agency and my past one. The ending up on the ground part is the handcuffing that takes place after the H2H portion.

It did use to be par for the course to just grab, pull, pile on top. That has been changing in Colorado for at least the last 10 years or so. It is a safety issue to try and wrestle somebody to the ground. Too many people are into UFC/MMA type fighting and have at least the concept behind ground fighting (the probably isnt a majority of the population but why risk it).

My last agency got POST approval to develop our (I retired from there so I still say "our") own system of Defensive Tactics and I was lucky enough to be an instructor. Ground fighting is a significant portion of it but not the goal; being a ground fighter, and the system itself got much more tactically "agressive."

We now do not have to wait to get punched to respond to an aggressive situation: yelling, threatening, disregarding (lawful) commands, balling fists, pacing and more, if the situation warrants can lead to the Officer initiating hands on. A lot of it is mental.

It is a very good system but now I have to deal with PPCT which seems to be based more around liability (CYA for the agency) than Agent/Officer safety...

 

[jks9199]

The way I see it, I don't care that much about percentages. In my line of work as a corrections officer and in the years I spent as a bouncer in a college town "Club", I've been in and seen a great many fights and scrapes go down. Fighting is manifest chaos and beyond most quantifiable aspects. Fights happen when you're standing, seated, on the ground, from the back, multiple people, weapons (improvised and not).....You NEVER Know. IF you train to be able to protect yourself and your loved ones, don't exclude anything. Train for it ALL. Ground is just one aspect, and one that's gained a lot of air time due to the popularity of fighting sports. The UFC/PRIDE/K1........whatever else, are FUN to watch....I'm an enthusiast myself!! They've also opened many eyes to the need to be well versed in many things! But they're a sport, plain and simple. The chaos factors are taken out to a large extent, as they should be. REAL combat can't be adequately compared to any other thing. I personally think that anyone that says differently is THEORIZING.

Your Brother
John

Great points. The percentages were latched onto by the Gracies as part of promoting BJJ. I'm not knocking BJJ -- it's an effective ground fighting system, and they've generally done a great job maintaining standards even as they hyped and promoted it heavily. But they most definitely are about promoting their system, too.

 

[MJS]

i take brazilian jiu jitsu and that 90 to 95% of all fights going to the ground is actually true because that's where most fights end up after they get in the clinch. i am an orange belt in bjj and if we go to the ground in bjj we are tought how to get back up on our feet properly. and no we don't pull guard or fall to the ground looking for all those submission's because that would just be plain stupied. we do ground work in my art but we also learn how to take the fight to the ground and then securing a joint lock or choke hold. too many people get confused with sport bjj and the self defence bjj. we also throw our attacker to the ground and either strike him or joint lock him. i have alot of background's i tried karate but didn't like it. i tried aikido but we didn't learn much joint locks and finally im in bjj which i found out was a very effective self defence art. now i train in a mixed martial arts self defence class
which i have expanded my self defence knowledge faster then in my bjj class. im still taking jiu jitsu but im also taking kickboxing not contact but shadowboxing which i think is pritty fun. im also a student assistent instructor in the kids class i work on their bjj skills and i help my instructors teach the techniques to them along with other assistent student instructors around me.

There're orange belts in BJJ? Anyways, no, sorry, I have to agree with those that've said it before...the 95% stats apply to certain groups only, not everyone. I've got nothing against BJJ, as I've done it myself. I would put BJJ in the same tool box that I put everything else in. There's a time and a place for everything.

 

[Steve]

There're orange belts in BJJ?

Kids typically rank White -> Yellow -> Orange -> Green -> Blue.

 

[kungfu penguin]

i know i hit someone once and they went to the ground [unconcious] but i would say it is closer to 65-35 [65 going to the ground] in my experiences

 

[Sukerkin]

Whereas in my experience, it is 100% not 'going to the ground'.

If we could pool all the experiences of the people here at MT, that might approach being a statistically significant sample; tho' even that is doubtful, especially as most people who train as martial artists learn the prmary principle of avoiding having a fight in the first place .

 

[Cirdan]

BJJ is fun but the ground is the last place I want to be if things get ugly.

Backyard fighting and "duels" go to the ground a lot. Real situations, not so much.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Over on FMAtalk a guy justified his post with the old cliche, "...after all, most fights go to the ground" (meaning that both fighters end up on the ground grappling). Well that's the way it is a lot of times in UFC. And that's the way it was when I got into fights as a kid...but I was a wrestler and that's all I knew then. But when you are talking about life-or-death self defense, and not brawling "duels" fueled by alcohol and ego, I'd rather put the other guy on the ground and stay standing myself. Especially now that I'm in my mid fifties. I really don't want to be rolling on the pavement, grappling with a gang banger whose 30+ years my junior. I figure that I don't fight anymore, so if I do get into it, it's because I have absolutely no choice. In that case, I will try to end it quickly and get out alive.

So here's my question. When you are talking real self-defense...do most encounters actually go to the ground? What is the reality here?

Without putting a number on it, from my experience, most fights where BOTH parties are actively engaged, often do end up on the ground in some fashion..........either both parties going to the ground, or one ending up on the ground, while the other kicks, stomps, etc.

Many of the reasons things go to the ground, however, vary.....some folks do purposely take things to the ground, but more often, in my experience, they end up there becaise they got knocked to the ground by a punch.....or ended up there as a resulting of accidentally tripping over something in the environment, such as a water meter lid, a trash can or the curb. The chaotic environmental situation of a 'street fight' often comes in to play........it's hard to fight in a yard full of debris without tripping.

Then the question becomes do they stay on the ground? Again, this varies......quite often fights will go the ground more than once over the course of a fight, with the party ending up the ground scrambling to their feet to the continue the fight.

Moreover, most fights are rather mobile affairs, with one party retreating, and another advancing, and considerable ground may be covered in a running fight.

Now, of course, if one person is far more skilled and/or physically larger and/or stronger than his opponent, he can far more easily control whether he goes to the ground in a fight. Two more or less equal opponents, however, are more subject to accidentally ending up on the ground in the dynamic pushing/pulling/bumping/slamming of a real fight.

 

[Mark Jordan]

Majority of fights do end where at least one fighter ends up on the ground at some point. They were either punched or pushed to the ground, taken down by a throw or tripped (tripping especially happens on street fights) etc.

Do not be the first person to hit the ground! The chance that both will end up on the ground is much less, but still high that's why learning how to grapple and apply and stop takedowns is vital.

 

[Hapkidoman]

I could never understand how it would be possible to determine the answer to this question. What or where would the stats come from ??

 

[MJS]

I could never understand how it would be possible to determine the answer to this question. What or where would the stats come from ??

I believe the stats come from a) Law Enforcement and b) an attempt by the Gracies to market their art.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I believe the stats come from a) Law Enforcement and b) an attempt by the Gracies to market their art.

I disagree........I do think the majority of fights between more or less equal opponents do end up on the ground.........trained or not, it's natural human nature to tie up and grapple, ineffectively if untrained, but tied up nonetheless results in tripping and both parties going to ground very quickly.

Watch any school yard fight.......the majority involve a very few long range punches, followed by grabbing each other, short arm punches, and someone trips on something, and both end up on the ground.

Anyone who doubts that it's human nature to tie up when getting hit needs only watching how many times in a boxing match the referee needs to seperate the fighters.

 

[Mark Jordan]

Last thing anyone wants to be in but as anyone who’s ever actually been in a fight will tell you, a lot of the time it ends up on the ground or at least includes someone going to the ground.

 

[chinto]

If we are talking real self defense situations, then yes some one will end up on the ground. BUT... often not both.

You DO NOT want to be on the ground in the street or in real fights. On the ground is where you tend to DIE!! literally here people! First of all, they never seem to come as singles. So if you are rolling around on the ground with the first attacker, his buddy is going to be trying to kick your head, ribs or other vitals in while you do! ( where I grew up he may even be wearing cork boots { picture a combat type logging boot with steel track spikes on the sole } )

I am an ex EMT and can tell you people are much more fragile then you think, especially if they are being kicked while on the ground and can not move with the kick or strike as much.

Is ground fighting something a lot of older systems have some of in them? Yes. many traditional Karate and other systems have some ground knowledge in them. But, they found that if you were on the ground your survival was much more in doubt. that is why standing techniques are much more common even in the samurai jujitsu systems then ones laying on the ground. ( most of the chokes and things were used while on one knee on the battlefeild and places so you could move and not get killed by a passing friend of the man you were dealing with as easily. ) { that is from a friend who studies a samurai jujitsu system and not BJJ)

one last thought. the cage matches and UFC have a lot of rules as to what you can strike, what joints you can manipulate, and what throws you may use. this is called " Fighter safety" and is required from day one by the sanctioning authoritys for every UFC match from day one!