Do most fights really go to the ground?

[MattJ]

OP -

Do most fights really go to the ground? These studies seem to say yes, although not to the 90% level that has been claimed before:

http://ejmas.com/jnc/2007jnc/jncart_Leblanc_0701.html

http://jiujitsu365.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/do-most-fights-go-to-the-ground-research-i-conducted/

 

[jks9199]

OP -

Do most fights really go to the ground? These studies seem to say yes, although not to the 90% level that has been claimed before:

http://ejmas.com/jnc/2007jnc/jncart_Leblanc_0701.html

http://jiujitsu365.wordpress.com/2008/03/11/do-most-fights-go-to-the-ground-research-i-conducted/

I don't have time at the moment to read each article closely -- but the first is really a reference back to the orginal LEO related research, and another study/poll that took place at a CalibrePress Street Survival (a law enforcement seminar) class. So, it's really still looking at LE fights, not "regular" fights -- with an inherent bias I discussed earlier.

The second is interesting, in that it looked at YouTube videos of fights to try to answer the questions -- but I question the validity of the sample using YouTube videos. How many real acts of violence, rather than staged matches, are filmed?

 

[zDom]

How many real acts of violence, rather than staged matches, are filmed?

Hard to claim "self defense" if you have a guy following you around with a camera to get footage of you fighting.

On the other hand, as the quality of security cams goes up and the price comes down, I think we will be seeing more and more footage of violence captured — for example, look at all the "store clerk fights of a robber" clips that we've seen on the news in the last year or so.

 

[BrandonLucas]

Hard to claim "self defense" if you have a guy following you around with a camera to get footage of you fighting.

On the other hand, as the quality of security cams goes up and the price comes down, I think we will be seeing more and more footage of violence captured — for example, look at all the "store clerk fights of a robber" clips that we've seen on the news in the last year or so.

Don't forget that some people just carry the things around, as weird as that is...also, cellphones can record video...don't want to count those out.

 

[MattJ]

jks9199 -

So, it's really still looking at LE fights, not "regular" fights -- with an inherent bias I discussed earlier.

I don't see the difference. LE fights are not "real"? You may wish to read the article a bit closer, as it notes that a good deal of the time the perp is taking the officer down - negating your 'control' argument.

The second is interesting, in that it looked at YouTube videos of fights to try to answer the questions -- but I question the validity of the sample using YouTube videos. How many real acts of violence, rather than staged matches, are filmed?

What do you mean by staged? Again, you seem to want to parse the meaning of 'real' quite a bit. A fight is still a fight, even if the participants agree to some terms ie; "Meet me outside, MFR!" and the like. Unless you are strictly counting blind assaults?

 

[zDom]

Don't forget that some people just carry the things around, as weird as that is...also, cellphones can record video...don't want to count those out.

True, and as more and more people DO start carrying cameras around, be it small vid cameras or phones with vid capability, we will be seeing more and more violence captured on video.

 

[jks9199]

jks9199 -



I don't see the difference. LE fights are not "real"? You may wish to read the article a bit closer, as it notes that a good deal of the time the perp is taking the officer down - negating your 'control' argument.

I know exactly how real a law enforcement officer's fight is -- but there is an inherent bias in the tactics chosen. When we cops fight someone, we are generally seeking to control and arrest the person, not simply escape or do harm to them. That shapes the tactics, strategies, and methodologies used.

What do you mean by staged? Again, you seem to want to parse the meaning of 'real' quite a bit. A fight is still a fight, even if the participants agree to some terms ie; "Meet me outside, MFR!" and the like. Unless you are strictly counting blind assaults?

A boxing match or MMA fight is a "real" fight in the sense that the two fighters are going out to hurt each other, within the rules of the game. But I'm distinguishing many street fights from violent assualts for a very simply reason: they ARE different. Rory Miller coined an excellent term to describe many fights, the Monkey Dance. They're about demonstrating and proving status, not as much about harming the other person. And, when there's no status at risk, there won't be a Monkey Dance. A violent attack is all about harming the other person; it may be a means to an end like rape or robbery, or it may be plain cussed evilness and all about inflicting harm on the other person. In any case, a violent assault is almost invariable viciously violent, faster than anyone expects, and will frequently use weapons, numbers, and/or surprise to gain and advantage over the victim.

Many of the YouTube fight videos depict backyard boxing and similar events; these are really categories of Monkey Dances in my opinion. Some videos available on the internet do indeed depict attacks, from various sources. A few that purport to depict "real attacks" are, when you consider the clarity and convenience that underlie the filming and outcome, almost certainly staged events for the camera.

 

[Tez3]

If you want to watch real fights on UTube the best bet would be to look for CCTV footage if any is posted up. Most of our big cities and towns have CCTV, if you can watch the fights etc you'll see why we have it. people say it's infringing human rights but when you watch how quickly altercations can turn into very nasty violence you see why we need to be able to get police officers to the scene fast.
It's educational watching CCTV footage, you can see how the fights start, who joins in, who's egging people on, what weapons they use and how they fight. You can also watch how the police deal with situations. If you can find any videos do watch them.

 

[SamT]

I've recieved a bit of BJJ training, and honestly, if I knew more, I would be taking people down to the ground, it's much easier to control them down there.

 

[MattJ]

I know exactly how real a law enforcement officer's fight is -- but there is an inherent bias in the tactics chosen. When we cops fight someone, we are generally seeking to control and arrest the person, not simply escape or do harm to them. That shapes the tactics, strategies, and methodologies used.

I take it you did not read my post. The perps are the ones taking the officers down. Please read.

Many of the YouTube fight videos depict backyard boxing and similar events; these are really categories of Monkey Dances in my opinion. Some videos available on the internet do indeed depict attacks, from various sources. A few that purport to depict "real attacks" are, when you consider the clarity and convenience that underlie the filming and outcome, almost certainly staged events for the camera.

All well and good, but the Monkey Dances are still fights, whether you choose to acknowledge them or not. Them being staged or not does not mean the violence is any less real - it just means that one party wanted to film it. You haven't seen gang-fights on Youtube? You don't think those are real?

 

[Sukerkin]

I wonder if you realise how 'snippy' the tone of your posting is, Matt?

I'm assuming that you don't mean to sound so rude, especially as you're not a newly signed up member. A little tact can go a long way .

 

[MJS]

I think we should look at this from 2 different view points. First, from the LEO standpoint and the second from the civilian viewpoint. Now, regardless of which one, in either case, I don't feel that being on the ground, especially for an extended period of time, is wise and I don't think that I should have to list the reasons why.

For the LEO, regardless of how he got there, either by taking the bad guy down or being pulled down, the idea is to control the bad guy. Also keep in mind that the bad guy is probably going to be trying very hard to reach for the LEOs weapon. I would think that at that point, getting up is more important then staying on the ground.

The the average Joe who is in a fight...like I said, learn some basics, and try to get back to a standing position. If a submission presents itself, and you feel confident in taking it, fine, but I would not stay there on purpose just for that goal.

And I know this always comes up in these discussions, and both sides of the fence argue their point, but I feel that the environment should also dictate what we do/don't do. I havent seen a BJJ fight yet, where someone that is in the circle around the people fighting, jumps in to help. That is a mutual agreement. Yet in the real world, there is nothing to stop someone from joining in, kicking your head, punching you, or doing anything else.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I take it you did not read my post. The perps are the ones taking the officers down. Please read.





All well and good, but the Monkey Dances are still fights, whether you choose to acknowledge them or not. Them being staged or not does not mean the violence is any less real - it just means that one party wanted to film it. You haven't seen gang-fights on Youtube? You don't think those are real?

I think you're overthinking everything. The title of the thread is "Do most fights really go to the ground?"....

The simple truth is that controlling an opponent in a 1 on 1 situation is much easier on the ground, provided that you have training in a grappling art. There is less room to move, less move to run, and gravity has already taken effect.

If you are looking at facing more than one opponent, then going to the ground can still be an option, although it probably would be wise to not stay down for long.

Whether the fight is real, staged, completely fake, an MMA event, etc....the fact of the matter is that fights can and do go to the ground. The best solution that I can think of is to be prepared for it if and when it happens.

 

[MattJ]

I wonder if you realise how 'snippy' the tone of your posting is, Matt?

I'm assuming that you don't mean to sound so rude, especially as you're not a newly signed up member. A little tact can go a long way .

How am I being rude, Sukerkin? jks9199 admitted not reading the studies I linked, and then completely ignored the point I tried to make in response, even though I highlighted it in my post. I did say "please read".

Brandon - I am confused. Were you directing your response to me? All I did was supply some studies - I haven't even given my opinion on grappling.

 

[BrandonLucas]

How am I being rude, Sukerkin? jks9199 admitted not reading the studies I linked, and then completely ignored the point I tried to make in response, even though I highlighted it in my post. I did say "please read".

Brandon - I am confused. Were you directing your response to me? All I did was supply some studies - I haven't even given my opinion on grappling.

Yes, my response was directed at you. Thank you for your links that you supplied, there is helpful information included in them.

I'm not discussing anyone else's opinion on grappling...I'm merely stating my own opinion. I'm saying that whether most fights go to the ground or not, it's best to be prepared in case they do.

And I agree with Sukerkin...try wording your responses in a "nicer tone". There are better ways to get your point across.

 

[MattJ]

Brandon -

How am I over-thinking things when I haven't given an opinion? Everyone seems more concerned with my tone than the content of my original post. I simply let the studies stand for themselves.

 

[Tez3]

Brandon -

How am I over-thinking things when I haven't given an opinion? Everyone seems more concerned with my tone than the content of my original post. I simply let the studies stand for themselves.

Because the tone puts off people reading anymore. If they believe you are being snippy with them they won't engage in further discussion and it kills the thread stone dead.

 

[morph4me]

Can we please get this thread back on track.

 

[zDom]

I've recieved a bit of BJJ training, and honestly, if I knew more, I would be taking people down to the ground, it's much easier to control them down there.

While I think being prepared in case the fight goes to the ground is critical, intentionally taking it there would be a BIG mistake around here (where I live).

Around here (southeast Missouri) it almost ALWAYS escalates into multiple attackers. Not a matter of IF, a matter of WHEN.

And if they see you rolling around on the ground, they see it as an easy opportunity for free shots, as opposed to a guy on his feet who just dropped their buddy — that tends to discourage them.

Also, have you ever rolled around on concrete or even asphalt? Not fun. Even if the falls don't hurt or cause injury, abrasions are VERY painful (third only to childbirth and burns, if I recall correctly).

 

[eggg1994]

i take brazilian jiu jitsu and that 90 to 95% of all fights going to the ground is actually true because that's where most fights end up after they get in the clinch. i am an orange belt in bjj and if we go to the ground in bjj we are tought how to get back up on our feet properly. and no we don't pull guard or fall to the ground looking for all those submission's because that would just be plain stupied. we do ground work in my art but we also learn how to take the fight to the ground and then securing a joint lock or choke hold. too many people get confused with sport bjj and the self defence bjj. we also throw our attacker to the ground and either strike him or joint lock him. i have alot of background's i tried karate but didn't like it. i tried aikido but we didn't learn much joint locks and finally im in bjj which i found out was a very effective self defence art. now i train in a mixed martial arts self defence class
which i have expanded my self defence knowledge faster then in my bjj class. im still taking jiu jitsu but im also taking kickboxing not contact but shadowboxing which i think is pritty fun. im also a student assistent instructor in the kids class i work on their bjj skills and i help my instructors teach the techniques to them along with other assistent student instructors around me.