Do most fights really go to the ground?

geezer

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Over on FMAtalk a guy justified his post with the old cliche, "...after all, most fights go to the ground" (meaning that both fighters end up on the ground grappling). Well that's the way it is a lot of times in UFC. And that's the way it was when I got into fights as a kid...but I was a wrestler and that's all I knew then. But when you are talking about life-or-death self defense, and not brawling "duels" fueled by alcohol and ego, I'd rather put the other guy on the ground and stay standing myself. Especially now that I'm in my mid fifties. I really don't want to be rolling on the pavement, grappling with a gang banger whose 30+ years my junior. I figure that I don't fight anymore, so if I do get into it, it's because I have absolutely no choice. In that case, I will try to end it quickly and get out alive.

So here's my question. When you are talking real self-defense...do most encounters actually go to the ground? What is the reality here?
 

JadecloudAlchemist

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From fights I have been in and seen It does not go to the ground that oftencompared to the ole' 90%or whatever the stat was. I would say there is more clinches than ground fighting.

However during a clinch it can go to the ground or someone take another to the ground with a slam or trips.
 

Carol

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Last thing I want to be doing in a bad situation is rolling around on the ground. If I'm fighting, that is. :uhyeah:

Rhee Bok Do. He who fights and runs away, lives to fight and run away, another day.
 

Nolerama

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Every fight I've ever been in has gone to the ground... Or at least includes someone going to the ground.

Ideally, I'd like to stay standing myself, with the other guy on the ground, but I'd like to prepare for different ranges.
 

zDom

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How many fights go to the ground is a subject that can be debated without end. A lot of it depends on the intentions of those involved and their skill sets.

One thing I'm sure very few people will argue, however, is that nearly all fights begin standing up :)
 

Sukerkin

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:lol: I included that scenario in my mind when I posted :D.

On serious note, I have never witnessed a fight that 'went to the ground' since I was in Primary School. Guess I hang around too many people who grew up watching Westerns full of manly fistfights ROFL.
 

kuntawguro

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From my personal experience , most of the fights ended with someone on the ground- usually the guy who got cold cocked. Most fights don't follow rules so if the guy is blabbing how bad he is and catches a haymaker- he is down for the count.
I personally do not want to roll around on the ground with someone trying to "submit " him. While that is happening my back, head, and extremities are open targets to one of his buddies.

The last time I saw a fight go to the ground is when a guy got tackled from behind in a parking lot. He got to his feet quite quickly and nailed his attacker in the crotch while fakeing a boxing stance. Fight over.

I do not like leg hugging by any means tho I do know how to fight on the ground.
 

DavidCC

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I thought we had all realized that this statement was a mis-interpretaion of LAPD statistics; that 90% of their "encounters" went to the ground because that was what the officers were trained to do so they could cuff the bad guy.

Now, if one of the fighters is trained and aiming to take the fight to the ground (MMA bouts), I bet 90% of THAT GUY's fights will go to the ground.
 

jks9199

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I thought we had all realized that this statement was a mis-interpretaion of LAPD statistics; that 90% of their "encounters" went to the ground because that was what the officers were trained to do so they could cuff the bad guy.

Now, if one of the fighters is trained and aiming to take the fight to the ground (MMA bouts), I bet 90% of THAT GUY's fights will go to the ground.
Trying to extrapolate "real" street fights from police encounters and uses of force is treacherous ground. A cop's job is to contain, control, and arrest the suspect. For that reason, many police fights do end up on the ground. When we take someone to the ground, we deprive them of a lot of mobility and a lot of ways to resist us while we put the cuffs on. Sometimes, the simple fact of taking them down takes the fight out of them...

Most of the real attacks I've responded to or investigated have had a few things in common:
Surprise; the victim often didn't realize the attack was coming until it was too late.
Violence; the attack was executed with almost shocking brutality.
Speed; the attack took place quickly -- and ended almost as quickly. Typically with someone badly hurt.
Weapons; yep, most real attacks aren't fair fights!

From my personal experience and observations -- the victor in a real attack is quite often the one who struck first, hardest (including with the best weapon), and most brutally. Fights that degenerate to a couple guys rolling on the ground are more in the category of a "friendly bar fight" or mutual combat, what Rory Miller calls the "monkey dance." Not serious attempts to hurt someone.
 

Josh Oakley

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Growing up I got into a lot of fights. more than 10, we'll say. Only 2 of them ever went to the ground. So in my experience, no.
 

MJS

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Over on FMAtalk a guy justified his post with the old cliche, "...after all, most fights go to the ground" (meaning that both fighters end up on the ground grappling). Well that's the way it is a lot of times in UFC. And that's the way it was when I got into fights as a kid...but I was a wrestler and that's all I knew then. But when you are talking about life-or-death self defense, and not brawling "duels" fueled by alcohol and ego, I'd rather put the other guy on the ground and stay standing myself. Especially now that I'm in my mid fifties. I really don't want to be rolling on the pavement, grappling with a gang banger whose 30+ years my junior. I figure that I don't fight anymore, so if I do get into it, it's because I have absolutely no choice. In that case, I will try to end it quickly and get out alive.

So here's my question. When you are talking real self-defense...do most encounters actually go to the ground? What is the reality here?

IMO, that statement is a bit over rated. I've asked this question before and was told that many of those stats, especially ones used by the Gracies, were mostly referring to LEOs, and bringing the bad guy to the ground to cuff him. However, this isn't to say that in a street fight, it couldn't end up there, but I don't feel that is the best place, and certainly if it did end up there, the goal should be to escape and get back to your feet, instead of rolling around for 30min, trying to look for a submission.

The UFC opened the eyes of alot of people to the importance of ground work. However, it isn't the end all, be all of SD, like it is often billed.

Mike
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Trying to extrapolate "real" street fights from police encounters and uses of force is treacherous ground. A cop's job is to contain, control, and arrest the suspect. For that reason, many police fights do end up on the ground. When we take someone to the ground, we deprive them of a lot of mobility and a lot of ways to resist us while we put the cuffs on. Sometimes, the simple fact of taking them down takes the fight out of them...

Most of the real attacks I've responded to or investigated have had a few things in common:
Surprise; the victim often didn't realize the attack was coming until it was too late.
Violence; the attack was executed with almost shocking brutality.
Speed; the attack took place quickly -- and ended almost as quickly. Typically with someone badly hurt.
Weapons; yep, most real attacks aren't fair fights!

From my personal experience and observations -- the victor in a real attack is quite often the one who struck first, hardest (including with the best weapon), and most brutally. Fights that degenerate to a couple guys rolling on the ground are more in the category of a "friendly bar fight" or mutual combat, what Rory Miller calls the "monkey dance." Not serious attempts to hurt someone.

These are all good solid points from someone who has been around the block and seen some real world violence. The initial quote of percentage that the Gracies used was from those LAPD statistics. (excellent marketing for a grappling system) That is what LEO's generally do in violent encounters so that they can contain, control and eventually cuff someone. Those statistics though are misleading for all real world violence. ie. knife attack, shiv from behind, blunt object attack, sucker punch, etc. Sure grappling can and does happen but it is not always going to happen. However, everyone should train in some grappling because there always is a chance in the moment that you may end up on the ground.
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I would hate to be clueless on the ground and find myself there. :erg:
 

morph4me

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I had to fight quite a bit while growing up, and a couple of times after that. I estimate that about 20% of the time I ended up on going to the ground, and then bounced up as fast I could, it's not somewhere I want to be, because I want the ability to escape when I can and I don't want to be a sitting duck for an attackers buddies, been there, done that.
 

punisher73

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These are all good solid points from someone who has been around the block and seen some real world violence. The initial quote of percentage that the Gracies used was from those LAPD statistics. (excellent marketing for a grappling system) That is what LEO's generally do in violent encounters so that they can contain, control and eventually cuff someone. Those statistics though are misleading for all real world violence. ie. knife attack, shiv from behind, blunt object attack, sucker punch, etc. Sure grappling can and does happen but it is not always going to happen. However, everyone should train in some grappling because there always is a chance in the moment that you may end up on the ground.
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I would hate to be clueless on the ground and find myself there. :erg:

Just to add on to that post. It was a good marketing tool for the Gracies. But, since most people are aware of where they got the statistic I would like to see it at least changed to "A high percentage of fights go to the ground when someone wants to take it there".

There are also two different ways to look at "going to the ground". There is the "grappling method" which is one fighter takes down the other person down to have the fight there (To me this also includes both people clinching and then falling to the ground). The other is one person ends up on the ground due to being struck, falling etc. and the other person stays standing and just stomps or kicks you.

In either case, you need to know how to get back up as fast and as safely as possible. To me, the ground fighting should only be used when you CAN'T quickly get up or disengage and you have to end it right then and now.
 

Big Don

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It might be just me, but, I can't help but, think, in response to the question "Do most fights go to the ground?" Ideally, for one participant. Or, as an alternative, only if BOTH are doing it wrong.
 

Drac

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During my bouncer all the altercations I witnessed ALL of them went to the ground..While on duty I have been pulled off balance and down to a knee but have never wound up on the ground..
 

MJS

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One reason why I said that I feel that statement is over rated is because so many of the fans of MMA, BJJ, Gracie, etc., see their idols doing it, so they figure that it must be ok. What they're not seeing is the fact that the 1 on 1 situation in the ring, may not play out the same in the real world.

Like I said, I enjoy rolling. Its very important to know. But its also important to know that its not the end all be all.
 

jks9199

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I had to fight quite a bit while growing up, and a couple of times after that. I estimate that about 20% of the time I ended up on going to the ground, and then bounced up as fast I could, it's not somewhere I want to be, because I want the ability to escape when I can and I don't want to be a sitting duck for an attackers buddies, been there, done that.

Exactly.

If I'm taking a bad guy to the ground to increase my control of him -- why would you want to end up on the ground for long in a fight for your life?

Though, as Brian said, IF your training is about defending yourself, you really need SOME groundfighting skill and knowledge, for lots of reasons.
 
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