How Do You Avoid The Ground?

[MJS]

Usually any time the ground is mentioned, someone tends to bring up the 'stats' of all fights or a high percentage (90%-95%) of them go to the ground.

This thread isn't intended to debate the stats, but instead to talk about what each of you personally do, to avoid going to the ground. In theory, yes, its easy to say, "I"ll never be taken down!!!" but in reality, its possible that we may trip, etc and the need to be able to survive will be there.

So, what do you do to avoid being taken down? Do you crosstrain in a grappling based art? Do you use strikes, and footwork to avoid the clinch? etc.

 

[Chris Parker]

Wow, okay Mike, this isn't that easy to answer in words (didn't fancy a quick trip to Melbourne so we can cover this in a bit of detail?), but I'll see if I can cover some of our base concepts.

To begin with, one of our fundamental ideas is to avoid confronting an opponent in their area of strength, so avoiding going to ground against a grappler is one expression of that. In essence, our street expression of that is to either strike or kick (keeping out of the grapplers range). Now, obviously that's a lot easier to say than to do, but it is something that we train relatively frequently, using specific skill-based drills against fast, realistic attacks. As I said, not so easy to discuss with words (without writing down our specific technical approach, and as the program is my Chief Instructors, I'm not about to put it down here).

We add to that by training methods of escape and getting up from the ground, rather than stay there to fight them. So even if our defences stopping the takedown don't work, we then have the escape to fall back on, and only as a last resort do we try to fight them on the ground (assuming that they are wanting to keep the fight there... if they aren't comfortable on the ground, and it's tactically safe to do so, by all means take them there!)

In the end, what it comes down to is managing distance. A specialist (in this case, a ground fighter) will want to take a fight to the place where they are feel the most comfortable. So that will mean, in this case, the ground. A generalist (like us) will want to manage the fight away from where the specialist wants to take it... so that is our approach. And it comes down to whichever is better at getting the right distance.

One point of note, here. Training in a specialist system in order to defeat a specialist system-trained person is great on paper, but the actual end result is that you are training to win in the other specialists area of strength, not actually defeat them there. Subtle difference....

 

[Skpotamus]

It can be quite difficult honestly. A good wrestler is hard to stop, especially if you don't know your opponent is a wrestler ahead of time.

Unfortunately, if you're in punch and kick range, you're inside of the distance a good wrestler can shoot in and take you down.

My basic ideas/strategies for self defense in general (helps a lot with ground defense)
1) Never be directly in front of your opponent, you always want an angle to their centerline and to be off of their centerline. This opens up angles of attack for you, and closes them off for them. Helps negate the wrestlers shot and makes anything off of their rear side a much longer, weaker strike to come at you.

2) Hip Distance, try to keep the hips back when body contact occurs. This gives you room to knee, throw, etc and makes it harder for them to take you down or throw you.

3) Center of gravity, try to keep my center of gravity below my opponents, this makes it harder for them to off balance me or lift me.

4) Continuously hit your opponent. Keep hitting them, whether it's little slaps to the ears, short elbows to the chin, jabs to the nose, slamming your shoulder into his chin or nose, keep up a constant street of attacks to their face/eyes area to keep their mind off of what they're trying to accomplish. Especially if they get in and clinch with you.

5) Once you get taken down (and you will unless you are better at grappling than your opponent), continuously strike your opponent and keep on moving. Essentially, spas out and make them think only about covering up from your blitzkrieg on the ground, this gives you a chance to escape to your feet. If you give a grappler a chance to set themselves on the ground, you're pretty well screwed.

Lots and LOTS of drilling and practice in the gym with some good wrestlers to see how well it works and learn what you can and cannot get away with.

 

[Steve]

Lots and LOTS of drilling and practice in the gym with some good wrestlers to see how well it works and learn what you can and cannot get away with.

Ultimately, whatever you are training, if you aren't somehow incorporating this very important element, it's a crap shoot.

Now, obviously that's a lot easier to say than to do, but it is something that we train relatively frequently, using specific skill-based drills against fast, realistic attacks.

The bolded parts are where a disconnect exists for me. Chris, you seem like a serious, very credible guy so please don't take this as a knock against you. I'm just pointing out a common problem I see.

If I were training in a "generalist" system where I'm banking on being able to avoid or neutralize my opponent's ground skills, training against legitimate ground fighters would be crucial. I've seen a lot of videos where guys are demonstrating takedown defense against "realistic" takedowns, but it was just their own guys doing what they thought was a good takedown.

IMO, if self defense is the goal and you're training specifically to avoid takedowns and to be able to get back up once on the ground, you need to be periodically pressure testing these techniques against legitimate grapplers. I'd also add that judoka, jiu-jitiero and wrestlers will share techniques but will approach combat differently, so periodically working with experienced grapplers in multiple disciplines would be important, too.

For the record, I'm not saying you have to train and become an expert in these systems. I'm saying that any techniques you are working on would need, at some point, to be trained against credible grapplers... not guys in your own gym who are faking it.

 

[WC_lun]

You must train with experienced grapplers who are really trying to take you down. Many systems have anti-grappling techniques, but if those technoques have not been trained with resisting traning partners, it is highly unlikely those techniques will be able to be applied when needed. You also find out what is myth and what is not real quickly. You hear a lot of advice out there that doesn't work and in some cases actually works for a person trying to take you down.

I'd also reccomend training some ground work as well. While the perfect scenario is not to go to the ground, fights rarely follow perfection. If you've never been trained for ground fighting, it can be an eye opening experience. If nothing else, you want to be trained enough to keep from getting put in no recover positions and to get back to your feet.

 

[Tanaka]

I'd say make sure you practice balancing exercises to increase your balance. A guy with good balance can be hard to take down at times. Then it would be good to do what everyone else is saying. Practice against legitimate grapplers and find ways to neutralize their control. Find ways to break their grips and get away from them. Then find ways to escape and properly get up during a fight if you're taken down.

 

[oaktree]

Usually any time the ground is mentioned, someone tends to bring up the 'stats' of all fights or a high percentage (90%-95%) of them go to the ground.

This thread isn't intended to debate the stats, but instead to talk about what each of you personally do, to avoid going to the ground. In theory, yes, its easy to say, "I"ll never be taken down!!!" but in reality, its possible that we may trip, etc and the need to be able to survive will be there.

So, what do you do to avoid being taken down? Do you crosstrain in a grappling based art? Do you use strikes, and footwork to avoid the clinch? etc.

I will say based on 3 things 1.avoiding going to the ground 2.going to the ground safe 3.being comfortable on the ground.

The first way dealing with avoiding the ground. This can be done by distance,timing,sprawling,rooting,positioning.

The second deals with going to the ground in break falls,rolling.

The third deals with being taken or taking to the ground and being able to be able to defend yourself intelligently or resulting in enough knowledge to get back to your feet.

In fighting someone looking to take me to the ground the person must first close the distance needed to grab me and then break my balance resulting in the takedown or throw. Angling, distancing, positioning, rooting, footwork, striking can all result in a decrease of closing the gap needed to effectively grab or shoot in.

Once the grab or clinch is in then sprawling, postitioning, rooting, sinking gravity can decrease the chances of being taken down.

If you are going down then learn to breakfall this can result in a sacrifice throw or putting yourself in a better position. The only way to really learn this is to practice being taken down and practice breakfalls, reverals and getting hands on time dealing with a grappler.

When you are on your back it can be disorienting it can cause panic if you are familar with the ground and being on your back then your chance of 1.getting back to your feet or 2. submission increases.

These are just my opinions.

 

[jks9199]

Usually any time the ground is mentioned, someone tends to bring up the 'stats' of all fights or a high percentage (90%-95%) of them go to the ground.

This thread isn't intended to debate the stats, but instead to talk about what each of you personally do, to avoid going to the ground. In theory, yes, its easy to say, "I"ll never be taken down!!!" but in reality, its possible that we may trip, etc and the need to be able to survive will be there.

So, what do you do to avoid being taken down? Do you crosstrain in a grappling based art? Do you use strikes, and footwork to avoid the clinch? etc.

You can't always avoid going to the ground or being taken down. Some tactics to do so can include evading the sweep/takedown attempt, counterstriking the grappler as they enter, and, of course, using sound principles when you kick or advance to minimize your vulnerability. Like Chris Parker said -- easier to explain in doing than in words...

If down, really, the emphasis becomes dealing with the grappler (if necessary) and getting back to your feet. There are tactics to do this that can take the attacker down while pulling you up, for example!

 

[MJS]

Wow, okay Mike, this isn't that easy to answer in words (didn't fancy a quick trip to Melbourne so we can cover this in a bit of detail?), but I'll see if I can cover some of our base concepts.

I'll hop on the next flight. LOL, maybe one of these days though.

To begin with, one of our fundamental ideas is to avoid confronting an opponent in their area of strength, so avoiding going to ground against a grappler is one expression of that. In essence, our street expression of that is to either strike or kick (keeping out of the grapplers range). Now, obviously that's a lot easier to say than to do, but it is something that we train relatively frequently, using specific skill-based drills against fast, realistic attacks. As I said, not so easy to discuss with words (without writing down our specific technical approach, and as the program is my Chief Instructors, I'm not about to put it down here).

Actually, this is how I gear my defense as well. IMO, for me anyways, its helpful to have an understanding of how a grappler operates. And yes, I agree, stuff like this is easier seen, than written.

We add to that by training methods of escape and getting up from the ground, rather than stay there to fight them. So even if our defences stopping the takedown don't work, we then have the escape to fall back on, and only as a last resort do we try to fight them on the ground (assuming that they are wanting to keep the fight there... if they aren't comfortable on the ground, and it's tactically safe to do so, by all means take them there!)

Agreed!! I think that many times, this is what people assume...that going to the ground means trying to submit via choke, lock, etc. Personally, I dont want to stay there any longer than need be, so know enough about the ground to get back up safely. If you can't, at least you know enough to survive.

In the end, what it comes down to is managing distance. A specialist (in this case, a ground fighter) will want to take a fight to the place where they are feel the most comfortable. So that will mean, in this case, the ground. A generalist (like us) will want to manage the fight away from where the specialist wants to take it... so that is our approach. And it comes down to whichever is better at getting the right distance.

True.

One point of note, here. Training in a specialist system in order to defeat a specialist system-trained person is great on paper, but the actual end result is that you are training to win in the other specialists area of strength, not actually defeat them there. Subtle difference....

Agree

 

[MJS]

It can be quite difficult honestly. A good wrestler is hard to stop, especially if you don't know your opponent is a wrestler ahead of time.

Unfortunately, if you're in punch and kick range, you're inside of the distance a good wrestler can shoot in and take you down.

My basic ideas/strategies for self defense in general (helps a lot with ground defense)
1) Never be directly in front of your opponent, you always want an angle to their centerline and to be off of their centerline. This opens up angles of attack for you, and closes them off for them. Helps negate the wrestlers shot and makes anything off of their rear side a much longer, weaker strike to come at you.

2) Hip Distance, try to keep the hips back when body contact occurs. This gives you room to knee, throw, etc and makes it harder for them to take you down or throw you.

3) Center of gravity, try to keep my center of gravity below my opponents, this makes it harder for them to off balance me or lift me.

4) Continuously hit your opponent. Keep hitting them, whether it's little slaps to the ears, short elbows to the chin, jabs to the nose, slamming your shoulder into his chin or nose, keep up a constant street of attacks to their face/eyes area to keep their mind off of what they're trying to accomplish. Especially if they get in and clinch with you.

5) Once you get taken down (and you will unless you are better at grappling than your opponent), continuously strike your opponent and keep on moving. Essentially, spas out and make them think only about covering up from your blitzkrieg on the ground, this gives you a chance to escape to your feet. If you give a grappler a chance to set themselves on the ground, you're pretty well screwed.

Lots and LOTS of drilling and practice in the gym with some good wrestlers to see how well it works and learn what you can and cannot get away with.

Very good points, and actually one of them that you made, will lead to my next segment of this thread.

 

[MJS]

Ultimately, whatever you are training, if you aren't somehow incorporating this very important element, it's a crap shoot.

The bolded parts are where a disconnect exists for me. Chris, you seem like a serious, very credible guy so please don't take this as a knock against you. I'm just pointing out a common problem I see.

If I were training in a "generalist" system where I'm banking on being able to avoid or neutralize my opponent's ground skills, training against legitimate ground fighters would be crucial. I've seen a lot of videos where guys are demonstrating takedown defense against "realistic" takedowns, but it was just their own guys doing what they thought was a good takedown.

IMO, if self defense is the goal and you're training specifically to avoid takedowns and to be able to get back up once on the ground, you need to be periodically pressure testing these techniques against legitimate grapplers. I'd also add that judoka, jiu-jitiero and wrestlers will share techniques but will approach combat differently, so periodically working with experienced grapplers in multiple disciplines would be important, too.

For the record, I'm not saying you have to train and become an expert in these systems. I'm saying that any techniques you are working on would need, at some point, to be trained against credible grapplers... not guys in your own gym who are faking it.

Great post Steve! Actually, this is what I find myself saying when I'm talking to other Kenpoists about grappling/ground fighting....that its important to work with a specialist, rather than another Kenpo person, who probably isn't going to be giving the most realistic attack.

This is what I like to do. If I can test my stuff against a grappler whos better than me (not that I'm a BJJ BB or some pro grappler ) and be able to make my defense better, than IMO, you'll be all that much prepared.

 

[MJS]

4) Continuously hit your opponent. Keep hitting them, whether it's little slaps to the ears, short elbows to the chin, jabs to the nose, slamming your shoulder into his chin or nose, keep up a constant street of attacks to their face/eyes area to keep their mind off of what they're trying to accomplish. Especially if they get in and clinch with you.

Many times, when we talk about the ground game, we of course, talk about strikes. Usually when certain strikes are mentioned, someone, usually the grappler, will say that a) certain strikes are not effective, and b) that they can do the same thing. Well, of course b. is a no brainer. LOL.

What does everyone feel are the best or more effective shots to use? FWIW, I think that the above mentioned strikes are pretty effective.

 

[Supra Vijai]

As my Sensei has already posted on this and covered most of it, I'm mainly just responding to the last post here.

We train all those strikes but also little flesh grabs or "survival grabs" which - take it from me - are extremely painful and disorienting. They only work for a split second but it's enough to make use of and gain the advantage. Especially when you are trying to throw off an attacker while on the ground as we went through last week, little things like grabs or even applying to pressure to certain points like just under the ear do a lot to take the opponent off balance allowing you to get free, get up and move on

 

[Rayban]

Just a quick addition to what Mr. Vijai was saying.

In addition to training on the ground using flesh grabs and some pretty real struggling (my body speaks for itself over the last week), we also train with people of varying size and weight to get a feel for what a larger framed person is like bearing down on you versus a smaller one.

 

[Skpotamus]

Many times, when we talk about the ground game, we of course, talk about strikes. Usually when certain strikes are mentioned, someone, usually the grappler, will say that a) certain strikes are not effective, and b) that they can do the same thing. Well, of course b. is a no brainer. LOL.

What does everyone feel are the best or more effective shots to use? FWIW, I think that the above mentioned strikes are pretty effective.

Whatever is available and doesn't injure you. Say you get taken down, but manage to establish a closed guard. From there, you start hitting, your opponent will do one of two things, try to get distance (which is when you try to escape), or cover up (which is when you try to escape). From my experience, unless you have an insane amount of striking power (we're talking Igor Vovchanchyn levels of power here), you're not going to do a lot of damage on your back. But what you can do, is constant harassing strikes, palm heels/slaps to the ears, temple, top of head, base of the skull, etc, elbows to the top of the head, etc. I'm not trying to hit hard, I'm not gonna KO my opponent with arm strikes, maybe with up kicks, but not arm strikes. My goal is to get them thinking about all those smacks on the head instead of pounding on me or holding me down. Then escape.

What I've found works best for me when I'm on my back was to pull their head down with my left hand and get on my left hip (kind of sliding out from under them so I'm kind of on my left side) while my right hand palm heels/slaps to the head, along with short elbows. I want a machine gun style attack on them to get them to cover up. Back of the head for SD, top/side for MMA.

YMMV.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Back of the head for SD, top/side for MMA.

YMMV.

Just a quick question, wouldn't the back of the head be a bit too awkward to hit hard enough to stun them if you are on your back/side and they are on top of you/facing you on the ground as you need to reach around their head for the strike? Why not just go for face/throat/ribs/sternum for the SD? Just trying to get a handle of different approaches, no disrespect intended.

 

[Skpotamus]

Just a quick question, wouldn't the back of the head be a bit too awkward to hit hard enough to stun them if you are on your back/side and they are on top of you/facing you on the ground as you need to reach around their head for the strike? Why not just go for face/throat/ribs/sternum for the SD? Just trying to get a handle of different approaches, no disrespect intended.

Well, if you're on the ground and you let them posture up and get distance between you so they are looking down at you, it's not going to matter where you try to hit since they're going to smash your face in anyways, they can use their whole body plus gravity to punch down at you, you have only your arms punching upwards, not much power there. You MIGHT be able to land a shot in the eye or throat and stun them, but it's easy to miss small targets that are easily defended. If they have that much distance, you should either be trying to get your legs up and push off ala Cro Cop vs Fujita or up kick ala Okami x Silva (silva KO'ed okami by kicking up when okami got distance), or pull them back down tight and effectively smother their strikes. Getting out to one side slightly gives you an angle on that side to throw arm strikes, whereas they on top will be too tight to really do much except a very short strike to the ribs that is hindered by their own body and the ground.

I prefer to keep them in tight, it lets me control them easier and stop them from accessing a weapon, hit me, and lets me setup my escapes easier. If they get posture before i can pull them down, then I'm using my legs to try to escape, but that turns into a scramble and nobody really has the advantage there.

To quote myself: "What I've found works best for me when I'm on my back was to pull their head down with my left hand and get on my left hip (kind of sliding out from under them so I'm kind of on my left side) while my right hand palm heels/slaps to the head, along with short elbows. I want a machine gun style attack on them to get them to cover up. Back of the head for SD, top/side for MMA."

As always, YMMV

 

[Rayban]

Just a quick question, wouldn't the back of the head be a bit too awkward to hit hard enough to stun them if you are on your back/side and they are on top of you/facing you on the ground as you need to reach around their head for the strike? Why not just go for face/throat/ribs/sternum for the SD? Just trying to get a handle of different approaches, no disrespect intended.

I think that more applies if they are close to you (as they should be if they know what they are doing) and/or have their guard up. If they're right ontop of you, you can hit at the back of the head and base of the neck. Failing that, a flesh grab at the back of then neck or pulling their hair should give you the same result.

 

[Supra Vijai]

Skpotamus, I'd agree with the pulling them close aspect of it. In fact the timing of this thread is brilliant - something we were talking about in class last night - as we are currently studying ground defence/escapes. We got made very aware of the importance of bringing your opponent in close to control/staying close to them if/when you manage to "reverse" positions.

When training it with situational context though, without giving too much away, we train with the mindset that you are jarred for a second after being taken down which lets them rear up and start raining down hits, at this point, we don't focus so much on striking them as jamming their strikes and finding an opening to clinch them close and restrict their movements before countering. In that context, for myself sides of the head and body seem a lot more natural and powerful. But as you said, everyone would have their own styles/preferences that come through and I guess that's what MA/SD should be about - doing what works for you in order to "win" or survive respectively

 

[Cirdan]

Good rooting, wear good shoes.
Read the attacker and the surroundings.
Distancing, avoidance. Be light on your feet. Of course run if able.
Make noise, yell FIRE to bring help. Crush car vindows to set off alarms. Grappling takes more time than shooting someone after all.
Strike hard, strike first if the situation calls for it, strike vulnerable spots.
Know how to grapple standing up and to break holds/ block throws.
Know how to fall, with or without an opponent on a hard surface. Use the drop to hurt the attacker.
Cross train grappling and with strikes mixed in.
There is no technique too dirty. Biting, headbutts, spitting, fishooks, slamming the attacker`s face against the asphalt etc are great. Any hard object like your cellphone can be used to crack skulls.
Know how to move and strike down on the ground outside grappling range.
Train how to get up quickly while keeping aware of your surroundings.