Do most fights really go to the ground?

zeeberex

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Why do debates like this always have to have an MMA bashing thing in them?

Why does it have to be bashing? It's a legitimate argument based on the statement in the first post or so, stating "Fights usually go to the ground", a biased remark made by an MMAer. Ie: A practicioner of a style that emphasizes ground work. The bias in the person's statement is obvious. Ground fighting is as legitimate as anything else, but to generalize such as that statement ignores a myriad of potential variables, and shows a limited point of view.

It's not bashing, just a simple observation.
 

Tez3

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Why does it have to be bashing? It's a legitimate argument based on the statement in the first post or so, stating "Fights usually go to the ground", a biased remark made by an MMAer. Ie: A practicioner of a style that emphasizes ground work. The bias in the person's statement is obvious. Ground fighting is as legitimate as anything else, but to generalize such as that statement ignores a myriad of potential variables, and shows a limited point of view.

It's not bashing, just a simple observation.


I didn't read the OP as an MMAer, he merely said 'that's what happens in UFC', if anything he's a fan of UFC. I certainly didn't see the OP as being biased, he was asking a question.
I would dispute that MMA is a style that emphasises groundwork, it includes groundwork along with a great deal of standup, the mix done correctly should be 50/50. The title Mixed Martial Arts says it all, it's not BJJ which does emphasis groundwork even though many BJJ classes will also teach striking and SD.
 

zDom

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I didn't read the OP as an MMAer, he merely said 'that's what happens in UFC', if anything he's a fan of UFC. I certainly didn't see the OP as being biased, he was asking a question.
I would dispute that MMA is a style that emphasises groundwork, it includes groundwork along with a great deal of standup, the mix done correctly should be 50/50. The title Mixed Martial Arts says it all, it's not BJJ which does emphasis groundwork even though many BJJ classes will also teach striking and SD.

From what I've seen (UFC, local-level MMA matches) it seems that MMA fighters (in general, not always) have solid ground skills — on par, say, with a good judoka or wrestler.

Their striking, on the other hand, to me usually appears to be a bit below par — not keeping eyes on target; beginner-level kicks, lack of timing (i.e. both guys flailing at the same time instead of slipping and picking a shot).

Again, there are exceptions — there are SOME good strikers. I'm just saying that it seems to ME that they are putting more eggs in the takedown+ground&pound basket than the avoiding takedown/precision striking basket.

Agree? Disagree?
 

Tez3

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From what I've seen (UFC, local-level MMA matches) it seems that MMA fighters (in general, not always) have solid ground skills on par, say, with a good judoka or wrestler.

Their striking, on the other hand, to me usually appears to be a bit below par not keeping eyes on target; beginner-level kicks, lack of timing (i.e. both guys flailing at the same time instead of slipping and picking a shot).

Again, there are exceptions there are SOME good strikers. I'm just saying that it seems to ME that they are putting more eggs in the takedown+ground&pound basket than the avoiding takedown/precision striking basket.

Agree? Disagree?


I think we have a cultural difference lol. Here our emphasis is more on striking because most of our fighters are standup people, TKD, karate or MT who've learnt ground skills. We don't have a tradition of wrestling you have so if ours are ground specialists they will be from Judo or BJJ and for some reason more stand up people go into MMA than ground guys. There are good No Gi grappling comps and fighters here which of course means no striking, they don't tend to filter so much into MMA. We have a guy who has done Olympic wrestling but he's from Iran ( I believe they have a big tradition of wrestling) but I can't think of any UK guy who came from wrestling.
The really good thing is that the up and coming teenagers are now well rounded in all skills.
 

Tez3

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I would have to say that most of the fights I've been in have gone to the ground. Maybe 30% have remained standing up.

How many though, intended it to go to ground? Alcohol plays a large part in violent encounters and I think is also responsible for the fact that many protagonists end up on the floor.
 

Rich Parsons

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Over on FMAtalk a guy justified his post with the old cliche, "...after all, most fights go to the ground" (meaning that both fighters end up on the ground grappling). Well that's the way it is a lot of times in UFC. And that's the way it was when I got into fights as a kid...but I was a wrestler and that's all I knew then. But when you are talking about life-or-death self defense, and not brawling "duels" fueled by alcohol and ego, I'd rather put the other guy on the ground and stay standing myself. Especially now that I'm in my mid fifties. I really don't want to be rolling on the pavement, grappling with a gang banger whose 30+ years my junior. I figure that I don't fight anymore, so if I do get into it, it's because I have absolutely no choice. In that case, I will try to end it quickly and get out alive.

So here's my question. When you are talking real self-defense...do most encounters actually go to the ground? What is the reality here?

Geezer,

In my experience, when I was facing 4 or more it went to ground as I could not stop the mass of taking me down or knocking me down. But I got up. To say that everyone out there is a good wrestler is saying too much. But it happens.

But in self defense with one or two or even three, it started with me standing end almost always ended with me standing. I hit hard and often, and use standing grappling to place the opponent into positions to thei bodies and head meet solid objects such as walls, cars, ground, etcetera.


It happens. It should not be ignored. It should be reviewed, but does not require being an expert in grounf fighting.


If you want to scare someone, take a training knife with you into a grappling situation and pull it. See how fast it all breaks down, and even if the person is really good, they are not used to dealing with that type of weapon on the ground.

Thanks
 

zDom

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I think we have a cultural difference lol. Here our emphasis is more on striking because most of our fighters are standup people, TKD, karate or MT who've learnt ground skills. We don't have a tradition of wrestling you have so if ours are ground specialists they will be from Judo or BJJ and for some reason more stand up people go into MMA than ground guys.

I think you are correct. I seem to recall Bispin as being one of the better strikers I've seen in the UFC, for example.
 

Tez3

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I think you are correct. I seem to recall Bisping as being one of the better strikers I've seen in the UFC, for example.

Yeah, he's not bad lol, He's TKD and kickboxing. Rosi Sexton is TKD, Neal Grove is karate ( blackbelt still trains karate)
Look out for this one in the States
http://www.knucklepit.com/mixed-martial-arts-paul_daley.htm
And Dan Hardy just signed to UFC. In his biog it says what I've been saying, groundwork tends to be the weaker of the guys here's disciplines.
http://www.danhardymma.com/?pid=57

I think the TKD people will be pleased! many of ours come from that style.
 
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geezer

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Geezer,

In my experience, when I was facing 4 or more it went to ground... But in self defense with one or two or even three, it started with me standing end almost always ended with me standing...

What the h***! You have multiple experiences fighting "4 or more" as compared to only "two or even three" opponents. Are we talking real fights here, not just dojo sparring. Because if we are, I gotta hear the rest of the story!
 

Rich Parsons

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What the h***! You have multiple experiences fighting "4 or more" as compared to only "two or even three" opponents. Are we talking real fights here, not just dojo sparring. Because if we are, I gotta hear the rest of the story!


Geezer,

Stories. Plural. It was a miss spent youth of bouncing to help pay for college. Computer Programming paid $2.75 and hour and then $3.35 an hour. While Bouncing manytimes paid $6 to $10 an hour and many times under the table, but even for those one off gigs that did pay cash, most that paid in check and took taxes was twice as much as a programming job through the college co-op.

Central Michigan Football team - Most of the Front Line and starting backs

6 guys looking to hit one of my female employees

A random fight or two

The standard Friday Night Fall Fight where a group of guys show up looking to have fun.

The Mash Pit at an event, where they were on purpose targeting the security

and a few more.

But the short, of the answer, is that it might start with one it soon has many. Some knew who to move together, while other times they just were a mob and no coordinating moves.
 

Josh Oakley

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I wonder if there's ever been a real survey done to see how many fights really go to the ground. That would be interesting. Right now, the OP question can only really be answered speculatively, and through anecdotal evidence.

Plus in my experience, roughly 78.2345% of statistics are totally made up. (even this one!)

But going to the ground is counter-intuitive to self defense. Who really wants to go to the ground when there's a knife in the mix? A gun? You can get stabbed or shot without ever seeing what got you. What then?
How about if there are multiple guys? You don't have time to grapple then. Even standing grappling should be done as little as possible.

I just did a class about bear hugs from behind. I wanted to see what my students would come with. One of my students is very strong, and given enough time can just muscle out of the bear hug by dropping and lifting the opponent's arms. But I threw him for a loop when I started asking him these questions:

1)What kind of guy would be trying to put you in a bear hug? Smaller than you, or bigger?

And

2) Why is the guy puttin you in a bear hug in the first place? What's his objective?


That stopped the whole class.


When they started thinking on these terms, they realized that usually it would be a guy bigger than you, and he's either going to be trying to pull you somewhere or hold you down for another personto attack you.

This drastically changed everyone's response, naturally.



I think that rings true in ground fighting, too. Obviously, if you go to the ground and don't know what to do, you're toast. So you need ground fighting knowledge and experience. But in real situations I and others have been in, mobility is a high-value commodity. If I'm only fighting one guy and he tries to take the fight to the ground, it's in my best interest to let him. He can take the fight to the ground all he wants. I however, will stay on my feet and pummel him from above.

Keep in mind I spent many years as a grappler and wrestler.

If there's a weapon involved, or more than one person, I just can't imagine a situation where me being on the ground can possibly be a good thing.
 

Sukerkin

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Some good points coming out of the mix, ladies and gentlemen.

My own personal experiences are far too slender for me to speak with authority on the matter but the anecdotes of those who have 'seen the elephant', sometimes as part of their profession, have been most enlightening.
 

allenjp

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Just to point out, now you have escalated an assault and battery (misdemeanor) to a felony. In most states if you choke someone out or start the choke it is considered deadly force. If you break the limb you are also committing a high end felony (states vary as to what it is called, in Michigan it would probably be an aggravated/felonious assault or even assault with intent to do great bodily harm).

To claim self-defense you have to make an attempt to get away from the situation. Just some thoughts to consider.

Are you an LEO? If so, in what state? I am a court employee in CA. and I work with assault cases daily in open court and closely with both prosecuters and defense attorneys (and defendants, witnesses, victims) you name it.

The laws in CA. are not what you describe. Breaking a limb or STARTING a choke are not considered deadly force. Great Bodily Injury yes, (depending on how far you go with the choke) but not deadly force. Usually for deadly force there has to be a weapon involved, and that weapon must be used in a way that is "likely to produce death". (In other words you can't be charged with deadly force if you hit someone with a bat in the leg, but if you hit them in the head you can)

And you DO NOT have to make an attempt to escape in CA. You have the right to stand your ground, you just can't be the one to throw the first blow. And you better have a witness who will say that you didn't throw the first blow.

Use of deadly force is justified if a reasonable person in the same situation would feel in fear that they were about to suffer death OR great bodily injury (which can be a broken arm etc...) Being attacked by multiple opponents is enough to justify deadly force in most cases...at least in CA.

I would not break the limb of just one person fighting with me unless I was really convinced that he would kill me after I let go of him.

So, if I was attacked by multiple BG's, I would have no fear of the law over putting one guy out of commission quickly so that I could more effectively face the others. Even if I were to get in trouble...better to be tried by twelve than...well, you know the rest.
 

Bodhisattva

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How many though, intended it to go to ground? Alcohol plays a large part in violent encounters and I think is also responsible for the fact that many protagonists end up on the floor.

Alcohol is not a necessary element for fights to go to the ground.

Fights go to the ground because there are three ways to fight - separated, clinched, or prone.

Groundfighting is a necessary skill.
 

Glycerine0160

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Look

If you have two inexperienced fighters, it probably will go to the ground unless someone takes a good punch (by chance) but if some guy is taking a few hits and he knows it, he is going to tackle. its his only option because he obviously isn't winning it standing.

When you are talking experienced fighters I cannot see this happening. I presume it depends on your art/skill too. As a novice JKD user, I would only close real close when I am ready to finish. If a guy tackled me, it's possible he might get me. We go over drills to avoid it, but I think he would by pass this and I would be left with my wrestling instincts. That would be to thrust my hips into his head and slam his head into the floor.
If he did get me on the ground, I will rip his balls off or gouge out his eyes.
 

Tez3

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Alcohol is not a necessary element for fights to go to the ground.

Fights go to the ground because there are three ways to fight - separated, clinched, or prone.

Groundfighting is a necessary skill.


Just about every fight or altercation I deal with is caused by alcohol, that's what I meant, the fights are fuels by alcohol. Its not the reason they go to ground.
 

myusername

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TMA's and pure stand up striking arts have been unfairly over criticised and belittled in the recent past (one particular BS website springs to mind!) Obviously this is complete nonsense as some one in this thread has correctly pointed out all fights start standing up! However, the danger with this situation is that in an effort to defend ones self and art one can end up polarising oneself and moving to the other end of the spectrum by over criticising ground fighting and grappling arts.

Just as many grapplers make assumptions that striking arts are some how unable to adapt to the street situation and assume that the striker will always be attempting high spinning head kicks rather than using powerful limb shattering strikes, knees and elbows, bites and gouges it is clear to me that some strikers seem to assume that the grapplers are unable to adapt to the street situation and will always be looking for a complicated leg lock or hold and, for some inexplicable reason, would not want to get up on their feet and run as soon as they can, rather than using powerful fast joint breaks, knees and elbows and bites and gouges!

I really don't think it matters if most fights go to the ground or not. What matters to me is that it is a possibility. I think most sensible people would agree it is not the place you want to be and no matter what your system is, striking or grappling, you need to adapt your training to this situation and use what ever means or techniques that enable you to get back on your feet and escape as quickly as possible.

Being a bit of a fan I always like to throw in a relevant article by my chief jujutsu instructor Kevin O'Hagan! Here are two on adapting grappling arts to the street situation....

http://www.kevinohagan.com/Webpages/Pages/Articles_Grappling_Realistic.htm

http://www.kevinohagan.com/Webpages/Pages/Articles_Grappling_Combat.htm
 

Tez3

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TMA's and pure stand up striking arts have been unfairly over criticised and belittled in the recent past (one particular BS website springs to mind!) Obviously this is complete nonsense as some one in this thread has correctly pointed out all fights start standing up! However, the danger with this situation is that in an effort to defend ones self and art one can end up polarising oneself and moving to the other end of the spectrum by over criticising ground fighting and grappling arts.

Just as many grapplers make assumptions that striking arts are some how unable to adapt to the street situation and assume that the striker will always be attempting high spinning head kicks rather than using powerful limb shattering strikes, knees and elbows, bites and gouges it is clear to me that some strikers seem to assume that the grapplers are unable to adapt to the street situation and will always be looking for a complicated leg lock or hold and, for some inexplicable reason, would not want to get up on their feet and run as soon as they can, rather than using powerful fast joint breaks, knees and elbows and bites and gouges!

I really don't think it matters if most fights go to the ground or not. What matters to me is that it is a possibility. I think most sensible people would agree it is not the place you want to be and no matter what your system is, striking or grappling, you need to adapt your training to this situation and use what ever means or techniques that enable you to get back on your feet and escape as quickly as possible.

Being a bit of a fan I always like to throw in a relevant article by my chief jujutsu instructor Kevin O'Hagan! Here are two on adapting grappling arts to the street situation....

http://www.kevinohagan.com/Webpages/Pages/Articles_Grappling_Realistic.htm

http://www.kevinohagan.com/Webpages/Pages/Articles_Grappling_Combat.htm



Good post and good articles!!! I've heard a lot about Kevin O'Hagan, all good I should add!
My instructor also comes from Bristol, must be something in the water down there lol! It's Angrrr Management country too, I've trying to come down for the next one.
 
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