Do BETTER martial artists train ONE art or MANY arts?

[geezer]

That isn't true. If one system has you moving one way, and another system has you moving another way. I can tell the difference. LOL

OK, I'm gonna break with the majority opinion and agree with you. Maybe your problem was using Kenpo as an example, since it is a very broad and eclectic system. However, many arts are narrower in their focus and do not overlap so much. Archery and wrestling for example. I'm sure I could tell them apart even in totally unstructured application. LOL

Now a little more seriously, If you were to compare Wing Chun, TKD, and BJJ, most people could differentiate them even in a free sparring session. There is not that much overlap between their methods and objectives. For example I remember a post in which a BJJ practitioner on this forum commented on a video showing a WC guy sparring a karateka. He ridiculed them both for their inept groundwork. He noted that the WC guy passed up numerous opportunities to get the mount and submission. The fact that neither art has the objective of getting a submission was apparently lost on him. Might as well criticize the archer for crappy takedowns, or the wrestler for poor marksmanship!

Now of course if you are training for a common objective, there will be more overlap. For example, if you want to spar with MMA rules in a cage, and you want to be successful, you will apply what you need to, and the lines will be more blurred. Alan Orr's WC trained MMA fighters are an example:

 

[tshadowchaser]

at one time you could almost tell which art a person studied by watching them do a form or get into a stance for fighting and some by the way they walked. Most certainly you could tell by what techniques they used or did not use when fighting. Today there has been so much cross training and incorporation of techniques that work that most systems look alike on the competition floor.
Now when off the competition floor and inside the school things might be different. Many competitors found that they needed to use the techniques of others to raise there game.

As I said before people that study a lifetime studied others to learn more not just for competition but for knowledge

 

[Shajikfer]

at one time you could almost tell which art a person studied by watching them do a form or get into a stance for fighting and some by the way they walked. Most certainly you could tell by what techniques they used or did not use when fighting. Today there has been so much cross training and incorporation of techniques that work that most systems look alike on the competition floor.
Now when off the competition floor and inside the school things might be different. Many competitors found that they needed to use the techniques of others to raise there game.

As I said before people that study a lifetime studied others to learn more not just for competition but for knowledge

That is a good point. I used to feel the same way, but there are some general commonalities generally in a system. For example I can almost always tell when someone is doing WTF TKD based just off the position of their hands when they spar. Likewise Shotokan is pretty easy to distinguish. That being said, I have difficulty telling if someone is doing kickboxing of American Muai Thai. But that may just be a personal observational failure of mine, lol.

The problem I take issue with is when people open a school and say they are teaching Tang Soo Do and honestly its some kind amalgamation of Jeet Kune Do and Kempo, for example. That is at least one nice thing about the WTF TKD federation and the IKCF- it creates a standard so its easier to see what exactly someone within TKD is doing or in American Kempo, but that is limited in its own right. I started with MDK WTF TKD, and moved to ITF style over time. When I went to teach at a school in the area I just moved to, I found out none of my rankings in the ITF style were recognized by the WTF style school. Which honestly kind of sucked, because that sort of standardization such as the IKCF, WTF and Kendo federation have creates a kind of odd elitism.

That I take issue with- turning someone away without even looking at what they can actually do because they haven't registered within a certain classification system, which basically comes down to money, which I loathe being a part of Martial Arts.

If I had my way, it'd be taught for free. Which is why I am seeking employ at the kids kicking cancer foundation; it's non-profit, and teaches terminally ill cancer patients who are children TKD for no cost.

 

[jks9199]

Well, if you're doing forms, then there is a prescribed, specific way to do particular movements. But you're not 'solving problems' while doing forms. Frankly, that sounds like the sort of thing you do in sparring or self defense practice. In which case, there's nothing "outside the curriculum". There may be a sparring rule (i.e. no low kicks) but low kicks are certainly a part of the curriculum.
Maybe you can be more specific about exactly what you mean.

I do Kenpo; so, I will put it in that court. When I do a move my teacher did not teach me, or do it a move he did teach me in a different style, that is fine, but I must be able to do the stuff the way he says, and I must show him I can use kenpo, and only kenpo to get through any exercise, and that includes sparring. I don't make rank unless I can do that.

Maybe the point he was trying to make is that, if you do something outside of what your instructor has taught and outside the system, even if your "successful" with it, the instructor is very limited in what he can do to help you make it better. And, you're probably not finding the lesson you're intended to in the class, either. Extreme example -- if I'm teaching you an unarmed self defense technique and you draw a gun or break out a radio and call in a tactical air strike... You've missed the point of the lesson just a little, huh?

 

[PhotonGuy]

If you were in a TKD class and you solve problems with Kenpo, you are doing things outside the curriculum.

There are some dojos that teach multiple styles, each with their own ranking system, and there are students who sometimes train in those multiple styles simultaneously. On the average, they don't take any longer or have any harder time advancing in rank as students who are only doing one of the styles.

 

[geezer]

There are some dojos that teach multiple styles, each with their own ranking system, and there are students who sometimes train in those multiple styles simultaneously. On the average, they don't take any longer or have any harder time advancing in rank as students who are only doing one of the styles.

That would really depend on the student --his ability, how hard he trains, and so on, and on the school. Not all schools have the same criteria for advancing. In fact they vary dramatically.

BTW, what experience or data to you base your statement on? My experience teaching a traditional Chinese art is that studying multiple styles at the same time can be very confusing for some students, especially at the beginning. Ultimately however, I feel that cross training is usually beneficial for reasons I have stated before.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That would really depend on the student --his ability, how hard he trains, and so on, and on the school. Not all schools have the same criteria for advancing. In fact they vary dramatically.

BTW, what experience or data to you base your statement on? My experience teaching a traditional Chinese art is that studying multiple styles at the same time can be very confusing for some students, especially at the beginning. Ultimately however, I feel that cross training is usually beneficial for reasons I have stated before.

The primary school I train in teaches both Judo and Karate. It is not uncommon for students who are taking classes there to do both and although I am not doing so now, I have taken both at the same time in the past. Since Judo and Karate are so different, students don't have a problem confusing the two styles, at least not to my knowledge. Advancement in Karate is done through taking and passing tests which they schedule every three to four months. Advancement in Judo is done through attending and competing in tournaments and depending on what belt you're working on, it would depend on how many matches you have to win and what the ranks of your opponents have to be for you to advance.

 

[seasoned]

Love this thoughtful response! I wonder can I ask do you imagine that this need we have to see the fruits of our labour immediately does this mean people now have less perseverance and are less persistent with their first or main art? Might this be why people move on or try to find MA pastures greener do you think? Jxxx

As I relate to your question I can only point back to an earlier time as I came up though the ranks. It was never about looking for that next technique but taking the ones you were given and training them into and past boredom. Not realizing it at the time, the patience we learned was one of the greatest assets. Something else that was taught through discipline was respect. Once respect for dojo, Sensei and others was realized, could you begin to respect yourself, which instilled confidence (not arrogance).
Martial arts is a character builder, as one of the last gifts open to the ones that persevered. Then and only then could you teach and pass on your art for generations to come.

 

[drop bear]

There is a flow to it, or, a logic you buy into...or not.

How do you become unpredictable?

 

[Buka]

Sometimes the study of different styles isn't by choice. Dojos, at least here in the U.S, close down almost as frequently as restaurants. If somebody studies a Martial Art for years and loves it - and their dojo shuts down, they might continue to train in whatever is available to them.

When you train the Arts for many years you make some interesting friends. A lot of times those friends have different Martial backgrounds. Friends share a lot of things.

If you compete more than a few times you're bound to become kind of friendly to other competitors. And you'll probably hear this conversation, "Dude, show me how you did that." - which sometimes leads to "Why don't you drop by our club (or my house or my buddy's basement) meet the guys and we'll go over it."

If you're a cop you'll meet other cops who train, have trained or want to train. You might not spend years training in another guy's system, but if he can control a violent, wild man better than you....

Sometimes you'll just see something that you KNOW suits you. Kind of hard not to go explore that something.

Personally, I didn't have the luxury of training in a complete Martial Art. So I went a looking.
Best thing I ever did.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Sometimes the study of different styles isn't by choice. Dojos, at least here in the U.S, close down almost as frequently as restaurants. If somebody studies a Martial Art for years and loves it - and their dojo shuts down, they might continue to train in whatever is available to them.

When you train the Arts for many years you make some interesting friends. A lot of times those friends have different Martial backgrounds. Friends share a lot of things.

If you compete more than a few times you're bound to become kind of friendly to other competitors. And you'll probably hear this conversation, "Dude, show me how you did that." - which sometimes leads to "Why don't you drop by our club (or my house or my buddy's basement) meet the guys and we'll go over it."

If you're a cop you'll meet other cops who train, have trained or want to train. You might not spend years training in another guy's system, but if he can control a violent, wild man better than you....

Sometimes you'll just see something that you KNOW suits you. Kind of hard not to go explore that something.

Personally, I didn't have the luxury of training in a complete Martial Art. So I went a looking.
Best thing I ever did.

You sought the instruction of Master Ken?

 

[Touch Of Death]

How do you become unpredictable?

The short answer is to use obscure zones, so they can't see it coming. However, your questions seems to imply the being unprincipled is somehow the same thing as being unpredictable. It is not.

 

[Shajikfer]

Personally, I didn't have the luxury of training in a complete Martial Art. So I went a looking.
Best thing I ever did.

I was unfortunate to experience the retirement of a teacher five years into training, and the death of another after a few years. Likewise this sent me looking and exploring, and it was one of the best things I have ever done for my life.

I have friends who do silat, kyokushin, muai thai, and so on, and we definately do share. In fact, the insight from one silat practioner radically increased the power in my kicking ability. Without him I would have missed something very important.

 

[Xue Sheng]

So they combine arts to get where they feel they need to go faster. But then there are also cases of very talented people who want to train multiple arts just because they enjoy them, they are taking the time and they are able to keep the basic concepts separate within themselves.

Agree completely with your thoughts XS.. wonder (and have a concern) how easy it is in reality to do as you say and keep concepts (particularly ones that might overlap in outcome) separate? What do you think? Jx

IMO it is not at all easy, but there are a few talented people that can do it. However there are few yet who can do it under pressure. Like I said somewhere on MT, all of my attacks are Xingyiquan and all of my defense is taijiquan. It comes down to what comes naturally for the individual.

I am currently working to change my attack defense proclivities, but it is not easy

 

[Jenna]

How do you become unpredictable?

I would take your question out of the context of your reply and simply say.. wow this is an awesome question in its own right.. should have its own thread! I think unpredictability is key to being a BETTER martial artist of any ilk.. I say if you know HOW to make your self unpredictable as a fighter within your style you win far more than lose Jxx

 

[Shajikfer]

Xingyi is fantastic with offense. Am I misunderstanding its principle or are its attackst stop the opponent from attacking? Please correct me if wrong, as an internal art I know it is complicated.

To Jenna- yes I think that should be its own thread. Mushin is pretty important to learning how to utilize that, a kind of ingrained through training reflex how to appropriately respond to whatever is thrown at you. It's very difficult to reach.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xingyi is fantastic with offense. Am I misunderstanding its principle or are its attackst stop the opponent from attacking? Please correct me if wrong, as an internal art I know it is complicated.

Xingyiquan basic; Attack is attack and defense is attack. Xingyiquan always attacks, even when it is backing up.

 

[donald1]

I wouldn't say many but at least more than one however all same instructor. Main style goju karate and kobudo (weapons) and some training in xingyiquan

 

[Jenna]

As I relate to your question I can only point back to an earlier time as I came up though the ranks. It was never about looking for that next technique but taking the ones you were given and training them into and past boredom. Not realizing it at the time, the patience we learned was one of the greatest assets. Something else that was taught through discipline was respect. Once respect for dojo, Sensei and others was realized, could you begin to respect yourself, which instilled confidence (not arrogance).
Martial arts is a character builder, as one of the last gifts open to the ones that persevered. Then and only then could you teach and pass on your art for generations to come.

Absolutely agree with you! Am I just getting too old or what ever happened to character building through perseverance with some thing difficult (still achievable though)?? What happened to -as an old sparring partner used to refer to it - JUICING the technique until every possible way it could be utilised was exhausted.. I miss that in what I have seen in some of the pop-up dojos about lately

Man I hate sounding old haha! Still.. happy to be old if it means I can also be oldschool!! Jxxxx

 

[Shajikfer]

Xingyiquan basic; Attack is attack and defense is attack. Xingyiquan always attacks, even when it is backing up.

I thought so. I emphasize that every block should be an attack. I see nothing wrong with backing up- it can be a devious trap for your opponent strategically.


Pssssht Jenna, I can't wait to get old. I'm 5'4 so by the time I'm in my 50s and 70s I'll be a little old man that all the youngins will surely think is a push-over, then I'll show them whippersnappers a thing or two XD.

Edit: made a typo. What I get for not re-reading and posting. Too much coffee.