Belt Rank Progress

[Rokuta]

I can offer a further illustration of the variety in testing. Hopefully it is topical, even useful.

I'm still prety new to all this and may be a bit garbled, but for Ninpo (Genbukan) we are expected to test comprehensively 3 times prior to black belt, but not for black belt itself. I believe the second green belt/Rokyu, second purple/Gokyu and second brown/Nikyu require students to test on prior material. So a student studying Rokyu would also test on green 1, orange, yellow and white. Not sure if purple is as comprehensive or if they just do both purples and Rokyu. However Nikyu covers ALL prior material and lasts a couple of hours. So Ichikyu/Black is comparatively easy.

Still don't kow all our kyu names by heart yet.

I had the priviledge of watching a black belt test earlier this year and was blown away by the athleticism required of the participants. While it is noticeably shorter than Nikyu/brown, it is not a cakewalk.

My observations are: That a martial artist approaching the level of black belt would be expected to know all prior material at a high level of proficiency, and be able to prove it at least once if not more than once during their progression (how else can they teach effectively). The placement and number of comprehensive exam(s) will vary from art to art. High levels of athleticism are a must and hopefully have been encouraged in the previous cycles of training. I have the utmost respect for anyone who has gone through these tests and been recognized as a black belt in any martial art.

I'm looking forward to testing for yellow very soon and can assert that I have not been pushed too far too fast. In fact it's been a bit slow, though I'm not complaining. My sensei wants his students to pass when tested and will not test untill they demonstrate they are ready. How they actually perform is up to the individual on the day of the test.

 

[frank raud]

I don't know the name offhand but there is a school in North Carolina where the black belt test takes two days. You come in the first day and do all this stuff and then you come back the next day and do all this other stuff and if you successfully complete it and do all the stuff you've got to do well enough than you get a black belt. This is in sharp contrast to the test for the belt level right before black, the brown belt, which takes roughly an hour to take and complete and is much easier than the black belt test. Naturally the black belt test should be longer and harder than the brown belt test since it is a higher belt but for a black belt test to take two days and be much harder than a brown belt test which only takes an hour is quite an extreme jump if you ask me. My point is, should the black belt be such a big jump? Perhaps the black belt test should only be a little harder than the brown belt test and should only take maybe an hour and a half to complete, not two days. After all, with subjects in school, when you complete a course and go to a more advanced course usually the more advanced course is just a little harder, and in some cases such as with history classes, the more advanced class isn't harder at all but is merely sequential.

Is it reasonable to assume that at this mystery school, if a brown belt test is an hour, that you are only testing the techniques learned from the previous level, without variations? And that a black belt test that takes two days would include everything the student has learned from white to brown, plus being demonstrated on the offside, plus showing multiple variations of techniques and various possible combinations of techniques against one or more opponents? You are leaving much to the imagination in your argument. If a black belt test takes two days(your example), should the brown belt test be a day and a half? The blue belt test one day? Would you have more respect for a black belt who passed an hour and a half test or one who endured 18 grueling hours? If the brown belt test is one hour, and you envision an hour and a half black belt test, what would you eliminate from the black belt test to reduce the test length to 1/8 of the original test length? Your hypotheticals, fill in the blanks.

 

[Cirdan]

Tests take longer and gets more difficult for each new belt because you must must improve all the old stuff as well as learn the new. The black belt is not special in this regard, the only differences tend to be cosmetic things (bigger diploma, embroidered belt, you can wear a full instructor`s jacket etc).

If there is a bigger step somewhere I would say it is at blue-purple belt (after 2-3 years of training). This is where just showing up regularly is not enough any more, the technical stuff requires hard work and you can`t leave your brain in the locker room. A LOT of people quit here, somtimes called The Blue Belt Syndrome. There may also be a big step assosiated with any rank where you are expected to start teaching.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Photon
Perhaps it isn't that there is such a big jump content wise in the curriculum as much as it is a time of proving yourself and getting yourself ready for the responsibility in wearing a BB. Generally earning your BB is seen as a rite of passage, or as it was told me to "now that you have learned the basics you are ready to really learn" which is seen as a step up, a new beginning in your training after you earn that rank.

I don't know the name offhand but there is a school in North Carolina where the black belt test takes two days. You come in the first day and do all this stuff and then you come back the next day and do all this other stuff and if you successfully complete it and do all the stuff you've got to do well enough than you get a black belt.

Sometimes the several day BB test can be handled several different ways.
1) The test might be broken up where the student does say all of their kata, one steps, self defense all of the demo stuff before an open crowd (i.e. family, friends, general audience etc. etc.). Then the student comes back to a closed session where they then spar and are put through a hard physical test meant to test their spirit and their will. I know of one school who does their tests this way and they invite fighters from other schools to come and spar with their BB candidate, but it is a closed door invite only type of a thing because they really beat on the person.

2) I know of another school(s) that the BB test was a huge deal, 3 day long get together with all of the other schools in the association, and all of the BB candidates all testing and demoing at once (meaning one testing period). Here the test is for the student and for the family of the student as well. Everyone stays at the camp all learning and training together forming a bond for this rite of passage.

This is in sharp contrast to the test for the belt level right before black, the brown belt, which takes roughly an hour to take and complete and is much easier than the black belt test. Naturally the black belt test should be longer and harder than the brown belt test since it is a higher belt but for a black belt test to take two days and be much harder than a brown belt test which only takes an hour is quite an extreme jump if you ask me.

Not necessarily, as I described above both were multi day tests doing the same thing, making it an experience for the tester, a rite of passage. In the second example above it is a huge deal that is brought about at the end of 3-4 years training, being forced to train with different instructors in the association (so they can sign off on you etc. etc.) and a big demo for your family to witness what you have been studying the past several years.

In the first example the closed door part of the test is to mentally and physically exhaust you, and they consider it extreme enough not to include family and friends. It is private for the BB candidate to endure.

Even though; schools that don't do 2-3 day long tests do the same thing in a sense.
1) My instructor takes a student when they reach 1st brown and at that time they are expected to train after hours at his private dojo where they learn to fight and not just spar for a period of not less then 1 year. They do rounds of body work, pad up and fight. Last time I talked with him he mentioned they were also knife sparring now during these training sessions. Now the people who the students are going against are not only each other, but my instructor and his workout buddies (also other black belts from the main school, and other invited friends) who have been at his dojo doing this for close to 30+ years now 2-3 nights a week every week. Speaking from personal experience prior to my instructor retiring and then teaching at a commercial location, I came up in his private dojo doing this very thing and it was a great but grueling experience. He carried on the tradition as he raised BBs in his current commercial (open to the public so to speak) location. To earn your BB everyone goes through this, even his oldest student who was in his 70's when he tested for shodan.

2) My BB test in Arnis under Hock Hochheim (back in 1995), was several hours long and was comprehensive and covered double stick, single stick, espada y daga, knife and empty hand. In including all sorts of flow drills, sparring against weapons, disarms you name it.

3) MY BB test under my karate instructor (described above in 1987/88) involved kata, one steps, self defense, weapons kata, basics and kicking combinations, as well as sparring all of the BB on the board (7, I think) and the black belts who weren't on the board (2-3), along with a couple of brown belts thrown in for good measure. All in a smaller space than a two car garage (like I said we needed a place for the board and observers to fit, in my instructors private dojo) in Texas in the summer and no A/C. It went for 2-3 hours.

4) I saw a BB test at a school that had sent out a BB candidate to run 5 miles and then come back do a few kata and then had to fight 15 people at once (most of them white belts). (not a school that I trained at)

5) I've sat on BB exam boards for our TKD association where the candidate does all their kata, one steps, kicking combos, basics, etc. etc. and then fight everyone who volunteers black belts and under(with a one mile run to warm up). In this association these students might come from different schools under different instructors (teaching the same curriculum) so these can be larger tests with more people to spar with. The last one had maybe 20+ people to spar with and lasted about 2 hours in length.

My point is, should the black belt be such a big jump? Perhaps the black belt test should only be a little harder than the brown belt test and should only take maybe an hour and a half to complete, not two days. After all, with subjects in school, when you complete a course and go to a more advanced course usually the more advanced course is just a little harder, and in some cases such as with history classes, the more advanced class isn't harder at all but is merely sequential.

YES the BB test should be a big jump if your school or your association wants it to be. In all of the above examples other than the one I threw in where the guy had to fight off 15+ white belts at once. The BB is a rite of passage, something that you earn, something that isn't even considered to be given to a 7 year old or earned in a short 2 year period. It took me 7-8 years to earn my shodan under my sensei, it is still about that now with his current students (even the guy who started in his 60's and earned his shodan in his 70's, as well as his adult sons and his daughter in law who tested for shodan with him). Some students with my instructor start training at 5 and earn shodan when they turn 16 (the earliest age he will test someone for), and they too spend the last year training at the home dojo as well as the regular classes.

I make my students go for a year in between 1st brown (now red) and shodan so they can be more seasoned in helping to assist in classes, and to fine tune their techniques.

For lack of a better term it is part of our dojo lore. With my sensei it is being part of the band of brothers so to speak. You develop a bond with the others who went through the training and earned their rank. Likewise it is the same thing with the 1st school I mentioned with the hard sparring on the 2nd day. All though I have never seen first hand the 2nd school with the 3 day camp, I imagine it is the same. You can lose your job, go through a divorce, go through hard times (not that I want to do any of that), but you can't take away that experience of training, of getting ready, of surviving, the feeling of accomplishment of passing a hard exam, that so many others failed to take by dropping out.

I for one would rather have a long hard test, having gone though I think 4 shodan tests in different arts, the ones that mean the most for me were my hardest under Hock (2X) and under my sensei (1X). After shodan for me, it is different, it is more about growing in the art.

 

[Mark Lynn]

From my earlier post I said I wanted to take a hard test that it mean more to me than being given a belt. This doesn't mean that I believe all tests need to be the same, as in physically demanding in order to be a black belt.

I think the hard tests or the long tests are designed to give the student a feeling of accomplishment, that if you are not part of the school outsiders might believe is extreme, over done etc. etc.

Likewise I recently posted over in the Modern Arnis forum about how I passed two of my senior students to Lakan and Dayan ranks in Presas Arnis (my combination of GM Remy and GM Ernesto's arnis system). Theirs wasn't a hard exam in fact they didn't even know they were being examined. You can read about the exam in that forum but long post short it was while watching them and helping them during class (watching them assist in class) and seeing what they were doing beyond (but still in the spirit) of my curriculum that I decided they were ready to promote. I arranged for their former instructor and another senior instructor who knew them and meant something to them to also watch them over a weekend at a seminar and they too approved them for BB ranks.

The reason I did this was so that they knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that they had earned their rank. They don't need to any other organization telling them their rank is worthless, or to be a BB they need to have this signature or that signature to be legit. There was no favoritism involved, no politics, just recognizing a students hard work in learning their given art.

Whether or not the student goes through a 3 day test, a 2 hour test, or even a secret test, I think the point needs to be that the student knows and feels they earned it, not that it is the same old same old, well it is just another test, it is just another rank, just something else to be stacked up on the book self, hidden in a drawer, toss that experience into the round file etc. etc.

For some school cultures rank is down played, believe it or not even as BBs under my sensei rank was down played even after shodan (certainly before shodan when we trained at his dojo) as in time between grades (so it wasn't a belt factory). But the shodan test was something that was built up into us. We just knew it was going to be hard, it was excepted and expected. I do the same. But it doesn't mean that it has to be a big jump, or a hard test, or whatever. Each school is different and the BB is only good in the school or the association where it was given.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Its been awhile since I've been to the school in North Carolina, but I do know that for the black belt test you had to do a mile run as well as some other stuff that you didn't need to do for lower ranks. Naturally the black belt test would have more than a lower belt test as its a higher belt but for the black belt test in this school you had to do extra stuff that wasn't directly related to martial arts technique. People have talked about how with some black belt tests, that they cover everything that you learned since white belt. If the black belt test is going to include that then every test should include that.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't know the name offhand but there is a school in North Carolina where the black belt test takes two days.

There are some schools in my area and schools around the country that I have hears about that do things like this, some even having students stay overnight in the dojo/ang. There really isn't a big jump in material and personally, I find the two day thing to be kind of cheesy.

What I see in such tests is a lot over the top tests of physical endurance and a lot of weird (in my opinion) ceremonies designed to confirm your warrior-hood. I'm not going to express a value judgement on such practices, but it is not something that I do with my own students. My shodan tests are less than two hours long and they're free.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Well in my dojo there was a long standing myth that in order to take the black belt test you had to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. The way belt rank and promotion works in my dojo is like this. Every three or four months they have belt exams. When they do have such exams, if you want to you can sign up for it and take the exam for your next belt up, whatever it might be. The myth was that, unlike with the lower belts, that once you got to high level brown belt, the rank right before black, before you could even sign up for and take the test you had to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. The fact of the matter was, as I said, that it was a myth. Like with the lower belts you could sign up for and take the black belt test whenever you wanted to, at your own discretion, when they had tests every three to four months, once you made high level brown belt. Whether or not you pass would be a different matter but just to take the test, that was your choice and you didn't have to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. However, just the fact that such a myth would exist shows how the black belt can be put on a pedestal. If you don't need to be told you can take the test for the lower belts than you shouldn't need to be told you can take the test for the black belt. Especially since my head sensai is from Japan where the black belt is just seen as another belt. So that's how I think it should be done here.

 

[James Kovacich]

Well in my dojo there was a long standing myth that in order to take the black belt test you had to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. The way belt rank and promotion works in my dojo is like this. Every three or four months they have belt exams. When they do have such exams, if you want to you can sign up for it and take the exam for your next belt up, whatever it might be. The myth was that, unlike with the lower belts, that once you got to high level brown belt, the rank right before black, before you could even sign up for and take the test you had to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. The fact of the matter was, as I said, that it was a myth. Like with the lower belts you could sign up for and take the black belt test whenever you wanted to, at your own discretion, when they had tests every three to four months, once you made high level brown belt. Whether or not you pass would be a different matter but just to take the test, that was your choice and you didn't have to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. However, just the fact that such a myth would exist shows how the black belt can be put on a pedestal. If you don't need to be told you can take the test for the lower belts than you shouldn't need to be told you can take the test for the black belt. Especially since my head sensai is from Japan where the black belt is just seen as another belt. So that's how I think it should be done here.

What your calling a myth isn't accurate for martial arts as a whole. What your stating your dojo does sounds more like a McDojo to me. Anything and everything is always at the discretion of the Head Master, Hanshi, whoever is the highest. True some schools do things differantly but they don't set the standard.

Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Cirdan]

Well in my dojo there was a long standing myth that in order to take the black belt test you had to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. The way belt rank and promotion works in my dojo is like this. Every three or four months they have belt exams. When they do have such exams, if you want to you can sign up for it and take the exam for your next belt up, whatever it might be. The myth was that, unlike with the lower belts, that once you got to high level brown belt, the rank right before black, before you could even sign up for and take the test you had to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. The fact of the matter was, as I said, that it was a myth. Like with the lower belts you could sign up for and take the black belt test whenever you wanted to, at your own discretion, when they had tests every three to four months, once you made high level brown belt. Whether or not you pass would be a different matter but just to take the test, that was your choice and you didn't have to wait for the head sensai to tell you that you could take it. However, just the fact that such a myth would exist shows how the black belt can be put on a pedestal. If you don't need to be told you can take the test for the lower belts than you shouldn't need to be told you can take the test for the black belt. Especially since my head sensai is from Japan where the black belt is just seen as another belt. So that's how I think it should be done here.

Not a myth at all in traditional schools. Or in modern ones for that matter. In fact I`d say that being able to "sign up" for any level of grading without instructor`s approval is a major red flag.

Sure the black belt is just another belt, but it usually signifies some level of skill.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Not a myth at all in traditional schools. Or in modern ones for that matter. In fact I`d say that being able to "sign up" for any level of grading without instructor`s approval is a major red flag.

Sure the black belt is just another belt, but it usually signifies some level of skill.

What you can "sign up" for is the test. That doesn't mean you will pass but you can take the test for the next level. Just because you take the test does not mean you will get to the next level, you can take it and fail. Obviously, you cannot pass and get the next level without the instructor's approval.

 

[frank raud]

What you can "sign up" for is the test. That doesn't mean you will pass but you can take the test for the next level. Just because you take the test does not mean you will get to the next level, you can take it and fail. Obviously, you cannot pass and get the next level without the instructor's approval.

If I am understanding you correctly, you can sign up for a test you are not prepared enough to take? Using your example , after 3-4 months as a brown belt, you can sign up for the black belt test? Has anyone (or more than one) ever successfully taken the black belt test after such a short period as a brown belt? What form of martial arts do you do, karate, aikido, jiu jitsu or? What are the requirements in your school for a brown belt to take the shodan test?

 

[MJS]

I've been thinking, when it comes to belt ranks, going from one belt to another can sometimes be a big jump. In the USA you see this particularly with the black belt where the black belt is often put on a pedestal and the jump from brown to black can sometimes be a really big jump. Should it be done like that or perhaps belt rank should just be sequential where there are no big jumps from one belt to another including from brown to black. Much like in school, with some classes that you might take such as History, that you start with History 1 and than each proceeding semester you then take History 2, History 3, and then History 4. History 4 isn't necessarily and harder than History 3, History 2, or History 1, its just sequential and builds on the knowledge gained from the first three courses.

IMHO, I think nowadays, too many people put too much into the belts, rather than the quality of the material. Just because someone is a orange belt, a green belt, or even black, does not mean that they're any good. In many of the arts that I have experience in, there is usually a longer period of time between brown and black. In Kenpo, there's 3 steps to brown before black. Now, granted, some instructors tend to rush their students thru, but IMO, unless the student is really deserving, there is usually a long time frame between the 2 ranks. I think this is good, so as to ensure that the student is really ready for the next step.

 

[MJS]

What you can "sign up" for is the test. That doesn't mean you will pass but you can take the test for the next level. Just because you take the test does not mean you will get to the next level, you can take it and fail. Obviously, you cannot pass and get the next level without the instructor's approval.

With you saying this, am I safe to assume that the student isn't signing up when THEY feel they're ready, but instead, when the teacher feels the student is ready? The former is not right. Its up to the TEACHER not the student, when testing happens. Furthermore, one would like to think that if you're up for promotion, that the odds of passing are higher than failing. Of course, it is possible to still fail.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What your stating your dojo does sounds more like a McDojo to me.

I would only agree if passing the test is guaranteed/dependent upon payment. If there isn't a guaranteed pass for signing up, I wouldn't call it a McDojo based on the OP's description.

There are many tests that you take whether the teacher feels you're ready or not. You take all of your tests in school at scheduled times, ready or not. Anyone can sign up to take the SATs. That doesn't guarantee a good score. It just means that they can take the test.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I've been thinking, when it comes to belt ranks, going from one belt to another can sometimes be a big jump. In the USA you see this particularly with the black belt where the black belt is often put on a pedestal and the jump from brown to black can sometimes be a really big jump. Should it be done like that or perhaps belt rank should just be sequential where there are no big jumps from one belt to another including from brown to black. Much like in school, with some classes that you might take such as History, that you start with History 1 and than each proceeding semester you then take History 2, History 3, and then History 4. History 4 isn't necessarily and harder than History 3, History 2, or History 1, its just sequential and builds on the knowledge gained from the first three courses.

IIRC, the original three colors were white, brown and black.

 

[PhotonGuy]

If I am understanding you correctly, you can sign up for a test you are not prepared enough to take? Using your example , after 3-4 months as a brown belt, you can sign up for the black belt test? Has anyone (or more than one) ever successfully taken the black belt test after such a short period as a brown belt? What form of martial arts do you do, karate, aikido, jiu jitsu or? What are the requirements in your school for a brown belt to take the shodan test?

I've never known of anybody at my school whose gotten a black belt after 3-4 months of being a high level brown belt, (there are three levels of brown belt, low, middle, and high). Usually, it takes a student about a year after being a high level brown belt to get a black belt. I train in Karate in a style called Shito-Ryu which is somewhat similar to Shotokan. The dojo I train at also teaches Judo.

 

[PhotonGuy]

With you saying this, am I safe to assume that the student isn't signing up when THEY feel they're ready, but instead, when the teacher feels the student is ready?

No, the student signs up when they feel they're ready. Its the student who takes the test at his or her own discretion. Of course, just because a student thinks they're ready doesn't mean they are ready and if that's the case than it will show in the test and they wont pass.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I would only agree if passing the test is guaranteed/dependent upon payment. If there isn't a guaranteed pass for signing up, I wouldn't call it a McDojo based on the OP's description.

There are many tests that you take whether the teacher feels you're ready or not. You take all of your tests in school at scheduled times, ready or not. Anyone can sign up to take the SATs. That doesn't guarantee a good score. It just means that they can take the test.

Exactly. What I would consider a McDojo would be those places that charge five hundred dollars or more to take the black belt test which you get refunded if you fail. Then, even if you do horrible in the test they will still let you pass just so they can keep the money. That's what I call a McDojo.

 

[TKDTony2179]

Not all, but lots of the dojos have the brown belt as the belt rank right before black belt. Sometimes, a dojo might have multiple levels for a colored belt, for instance, brown low, brown middle, brown high, and then black. What Im saying is that the step from brown high to black should not be such a big jump, it shouldn't be much bigger than the step from brown low to brown middle or brown middle to brown high, based on the knowledge, experience, and abilities of the student. Somebody mentioned getting a high school diploma and yes, a student will not get a diploma until they successfully complete their senior year. However, the jump from senior to alumni is not a big jump. As a matter of fact, the senior year is usually a lighter year than some of the other years in high school and usually its the junior year that is academically the hardest. So for a senior in high school to complete the year and get a diploma is not a big jump.

That would depend on the student in high school at that time. I had trouble through out my high school years. I didn't quit. I worked hard through my senior year and got my diploma so for me it was hard every level. Senior year should not be lighter. It should be just as hard as youngsters are getting ready for college.