Belt Rank Progress

[RTKDCMB]

No, the student signs up when they feel they're ready. Its the student who takes the test at his or her own discretion. Of course, just because a student thinks they're ready doesn't mean they are ready and if that's the case than it will show in the test and they wont pass.

That's a very strange way to do things. Color belt student are, by definition, inexperienced in their art and don't really know when they are truly ready to promote. It is an instructors responsibility to determine where each student is in their training because they have the required experience. Can you imagine a medical student who gets to decide when he is ready to treat patients rather than his teacher and what could happen?
I have seen students who were far from ready for testing who thought they were and students who were ready and thought they were not, it is the instructors responsibility to separate the ones who are and the ones who are not. An instructor should not set their students up to fail, they should only be sent for testing if the instructor feels that they will pass, a student can then either confirm the instructors confidence in them of prove him/her wrong.

 

[Cirdan]

What you can "sign up" for is the test. That doesn't mean you will pass but you can take the test for the next level. Just because you take the test does not mean you will get to the next level, you can take it and fail. Obviously, you cannot pass and get the next level without the instructor's approval.

Thanks for clarifying, but it still sounds like a strange way of doing things. Does your school have a homepage?

 

[PhotonGuy]

That's a very strange way to do things. Color belt student are, by definition, inexperienced in their art and don't really know when they are truly ready to promote. It is an instructors responsibility to determine where each student is in their training because they have the required experience. Can you imagine a medical student who gets to decide when he is ready to treat patients rather than his teacher and what could happen?
I have seen students who were far from ready for testing who thought they were and students who were ready and thought they were not, it is the instructors responsibility to separate the ones who are and the ones who are not. An instructor should not set their students up to fail, they should only be sent for testing if the instructor feels that they will pass, a student can then either confirm the instructors confidence in them of prove him/her wrong.

A medical student cannot treat patients. In order to treat patients, a person needs to be a licensed doctor. That means they first have to have an M.D. which means they've completed medical school and are no longer a student. They then have to fulfill all the other requirements to get a medical license. Only once they get a medical license can they treat patients. Just about anybody can apply for a medical license but that doesn't mean they will get it. Even I can apply for a medical license having not ever having a single day of medical school, obviously I would be denied a license right away as soon as the medical board found out that I never went to medical school. In the same way, a student at my dojo can take a test for the next rank up if they want to, whether they're ready or not, but if they're not ready they will fail the test and be denied the rank. A medical student who is allowed to decide when he's ready to treat patients would be equivalent to a martial arts student who can decide for himself if he has passed a belt test and can award himself a higher belt, that is not how its done at my dojo. Sometimes people do fail belt tests and that is just part of the learning process. Failure is part of learning and its part of why learning isn't always easy or fun, but from failure comes experience.

 

[PhotonGuy]

That would depend on the student in high school at that time. I had trouble through out my high school years. I didn't quit. I worked hard through my senior year and got my diploma so for me it was hard every level. Senior year should not be lighter. It should be just as hard as youngsters are getting ready for college.

Usually the Junior year is the hardest and that's the year when students start applying for college. Although I don't personally know of anybody doing this, I've heard stories of people taking only English and Gym during their senior years. And a senior in high school is hardly a youngster, but that's beside the point.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Thanks for clarifying, but it still sounds like a strange way of doing things. Does your school have a homepage?

Yes it does. The homepage would be http://www.karateclassescranford.com/

 

[Dirty Dog]

A medical student cannot treat patients.

Yes, they can. They cannot do so with complete autonomy, but they can and do treat patients.

[Snip to remove remaining completely and totally incorrect information]

In the same way, a student at my dojo can take a test for the next rank up if they want to, whether they're ready or not, but if they're not ready they will fail the test and be denied the rank. A medical student who is allowed to decide when he's ready to treat patients would be equivalent to a martial arts student who can decide for himself if he has passed a belt test and can award himself a higher belt, that is not how its done at my dojo. Sometimes people do fail belt tests and that is just part of the learning process. Failure is part of learning and its part of why learning isn't always easy or fun, but from failure comes experience.

I'll agree that this seems an odd (but, I suspect, profitable) way to do things. We do not allow people to test until they're ready. When people want to test but aren't ready, we tell them they're not ready. They learn from that without being allowed to embarass themselves in front of other students.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Exactly. What I would consider a McDojo would be those places that charge five hundred dollars or more to take the black belt test which you get refunded if you fail. Then, even if you do horrible in the test they will still let you pass just so they can keep the money. That's what I call a McDojo.

Are your tests held at specific intervals; every four months (April, August, December) for example, and students sign up for the test that is appropriate to the material they've learned?

 

[RTKDCMB]

A medical student cannot treat patients. In order to treat patients, a person needs to be a licensed doctor. That means they first have to have an M.D. which means they've completed medical school and are no longer a student. They then have to fulfill all the other requirements to get a medical license. Only once they get a medical license can they treat patients. Just about anybody can apply for a medical license but that doesn't mean they will get it. Even I can apply for a medical license having not ever having a single day of medical school, obviously I would be denied a license right away as soon as the medical board found out that I never went to medical school. In the same way, a student at my dojo can take a test for the next rank up if they want to, whether they're ready or not, but if they're not ready they will fail the test and be denied the rank. A medical student who is allowed to decide when he's ready to treat patients would be equivalent to a martial arts student who can decide for himself if he has passed a belt test and can award himself a higher belt, that is not how its done at my dojo. Sometimes people do fail belt tests and that is just part of the learning process. Failure is part of learning and its part of why learning isn't always easy or fun, but from failure comes experience.

I will have to work on my analogies.

 

[EddieCyrax]

People have talked about how with some black belt tests, that they cover everything that you learned since white belt. If the black belt test is going to include that then every test should include that.

My schoold does exactly this. Every rank test is comprehencive of all material learned prior. Each test gets longer, more physical, and more mentally chanllenging. The grading is very rigorous on older material. Green, Brown, Black belts are expected to be extremely proficient with their white, yellow, orange, purple, blue material.

Green, Brown, & Black has a significant step up in expectations for advancement. Individuals advance on a fairly regular basis through purple, but once they hit blue the time for advancement grows significantly. Much of this time is ensuring the material has been engrained into the individual.

 

[RTKDCMB]

My schoold does exactly this. Every rank test is comprehencive of all material learned prior. Each test gets longer, more physical, and more mentally chanllenging. The grading is very rigorous on older material. Green, Brown, Black belts are expected to be extremely proficient with their white, yellow, orange, purple, blue material.

Green, Brown, & Black has a significant step up in expectations for advancement. Individuals advance on a fairly regular basis through purple, but once they hit blue the time for advancement grows significantly. Much of this time is ensuring the material has been engrained into the individual.

You must have some very long grading nights.

 

[lklawson]

Education has kindergarten to 12 th grade. Until you complete all the requirements for a High School Diploma you do not have a high school diploma. You can gradually step up to it with each grade and each class. But until you complete the requirements for a High School Diploma you do not have one. The high school diploma is a big step from nothing. Jobs require a High school diploma or GED. The GED is for those who study and then take a test to qualify for the requirements for a High School diploma. Yet it still does not have the same feeling to it.

GED is equivalent of Batsugun.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

My observations are: That a martial artist approaching the level of black belt would be expected to know all prior material at a high level of proficiency, and be able to prove it at least once if not more than once during their progression (how else can they teach effectively).

It still bemuses me that black belts and other advanced ranks are expected to be teachers.

Martial arts are a specific skill. Teaching is a different skill which (typically) requires instruction to learn. An effective teacher of martial arts must have two skill sets: Martial arts and Teaching.

If I were to go enroll in a Welding school, would I be expected to teach Welding to less experienced students?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It still bemuses me that black belts and other advanced ranks are expected to be teachers.

Martial arts are a specific skill. Teaching is a different skill which (typically) requires instruction to learn. An effective teacher of martial arts must have two skill sets: Martial arts and Teaching.

If I were to go enroll in a Welding school, would I be expected to teach Welding to less experienced students?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I've read more than a few interviews with old master of Japanese arts. A common experience seems to be a lot of drilling and the teacher demonstrating things a few times and then telling the students to do as they do. In all such accounts, the senior students end up figuring the stuff out along the way and showing the junior students how to do it. Thus, a black belt would end up teaching without being an actual instructor. Which is probably how the dynamic began.

After a certain point, dan grades shift from representing what you've accomplished to reflecting what you're doing to pass the art to others, so the idea of a fourth or fifth dan being expected to teach is in my opinion reasonable. But I don't personally feel that first degree students should be utilized as free instructors.

 

[lklawson]

IMHO, I think nowadays, too many people put too much into the belts, rather than the quality of the material. Just because someone is a orange belt, a green belt, or even black, does not mean that they're any good. In many of the arts that I have experience in, there is usually a longer period of time between brown and black. In Kenpo, there's 3 steps to brown before black. Now, granted, some instructors tend to rush their students thru, but IMO, unless the student is really deserving, there is usually a long time frame between the 2 ranks. I think this is good, so as to ensure that the student is really ready for the next step.

We've all seen black belts who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag and we've all seen white belts who step on the mat already a handful. Skill is more important than the color of the obi. I stopped caring about about belts at some point. To the point that I'd kinda opted to be a "professional brown belt" ...that is, until, the one of the instructors at that dojo got tired of it and I got an "ambush test."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I've read more than a few interviews with old master of Japanese arts. A common experience seems to be a lot of drilling and the teacher demonstrating things a few times and then telling the students to do as they do. In all such accounts, the senior students end up figuring the stuff out along the way and showing the junior students how to do it. Thus, a black belt would end up teaching without being an actual instructor. Which is probably how the dynamic began.

Which is, quite honestly, a really inefficient way to learn how to Teach. The "sink or swim" method can teach a person how to dog paddle, but you're not likely to get an olympic breast-stroke out of it. For best results, instruction is the most efficient method. But, yes, I've had any number of people relate to me, "when I was in Japan, the Sensie would just show the technique once or twice and then you had to figure it out." Also not a good way of instruction. Too easy to miss subtle, but important, elements.

After a certain point, dan grades shift from representing what you've accomplished to reflecting what you're doing to pass the art to others, so the idea of a fourth or fifth dan being expected to teach is in my opinion reasonable. But I don't personally feel that first degree students should be utilized as free instructors.

Oh, if the want to be an assistant, that's fine, IMO. But there's an assumption that every advanced student is somehow automatically an instructor. Maybe they hate people, suck at teaching, and their only skill is being able to fight.

It seems unique to asian martial arts. Few people go ask Tyson to teach them to box. But his coach... Same went for historic Fencing. If you wanted to learn to fence you went to a Salle or paid for personal instruction. What you didn't do is go hire a Duelist to teach you.

Ah well, enough exposition on this, I suppose.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

IIRC, the original three colors were white, brown and black.

Original colors? Mudansha, Yudansha. Before that, Menkyo Kaiden and other various and sundry licenses.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

We've all seen black belts who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag and we've all seen white belts who step on the mat already a handful. Skill is more important than the color of the obi. I stopped caring about about belts at some point. To the point that I'd kinda opted to be a "professional brown belt" ...that is, until, the one of the instructors at that dojo got tired of it and I got an "ambush test."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Belts are a nice way to tell at a glance who is where in the curriculum. From what I understand (a judoka might have more insight), Kano initially used them because he taught in more than one location and needed a way to tell who was where in the class. He later added other colors to provide incentive, but initially, the function was simply a way of distinguishing between the level of students he wasn't working with everyday.

 

[lklawson]

Belts are a nice way to tell at a glance who is where in the curriculum. From what I understand (a judoka might have more insight), Kano initially used them because he taught in more than one location and needed a way to tell who was where in the class. He later added other colors to provide incentive, but initially, the function was simply a way of distinguishing between the level of students he wasn't working with everyday.

My recollection is that it's a mish-mash. Dan ranks from Kano (swiped from Go). Kyu ranks from Kendo. Colored belts to represent kyu ranks, ims, Funakoshi.

This one is a quick read: http://www.minrec.org/wilson/pdfs/History of Belts and Ranks.pdf

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[PhotonGuy]

I'll agree that this seems an odd (but, I suspect, profitable) way to do things. We do not allow people to test until they're ready. When people want to test but aren't ready, we tell them they're not ready. They learn from that without being allowed to embarass themselves in front of other students.

If your instructors don't let people test until they're ready, than why even test them in the first place? If your instructors know that a student is ready than they can promote them right then and there and a test wouldn't be necessary.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If your instructors don't let people test until they're ready, than why even test them in the first place? If your instructors know that a student is ready than they can promote them right then and there and a test wouldn't be necessary.

To a certain extent, I agree. On the other hand, the test itself is a lesson for the student and also shows the instructor things that will not come out during regular class.

The test places the student under a degree of additional pressure that is not present in a regular class. Often, students will make mistakes at a test that they don't ordinarily make during class because of the closer scrutiny and perhaps an audience of non-students.

That a student may choke or make a mistake at a test isn't unexpected; the instructor wants to see how the student handles it. Which is something that I feel is the one of the real reasons for gradings (McDojo-ism not withstanding).