Putting the black belt on a pedestal

[PhotonGuy]

I've talked before about how lots of dojos particularly in the USA put the black belt on a pedestal, and what I mean by that is how it fits in with the rest of the ranking system. Although a first degree black belt is not the highest rank in most styles, for those styles that use a black belt in their ranking systems its often the highest color that you will wear no matter what rank you get to in your martial arts career. After first degree black is second degree black, than third degree, fourth degree, ect. but your belt color does not change. Some styles do use different colored belts for some of the really high degrees. Judo has a red and white belt that a sensei who has reached, I believe seventh degree, might wear in place of a black belt and so forth but even styles that do use different colors for the really high degrees doesn't mean the sensei will always wear it. Some sensei's might just hang their red and white or whatever color it is belt up on the wall and continue to wear the black belt that they got when they reached 1st degree when they teach. So, although 1st degree black belt is not the highest rank in most styles that use rank, its often the highest color.

Anyway, what I mean when I talk about how some places, particularly in the USA might put the black belt on a pedestal, what I mean is this. Although ranking systems vary from place to place, most places that use a ranking system have a few things in common. On your first day you start with a white belt (or no belt as in some places you start with no belt). From there you progress up the various colors of belts and eventually you get a brown belt. In lots of styles there are three levels of brown so when you first get a brown belt you're brown low. From there you get to brown middle and then brown high. After brown high is first degree black belt. I know that not all styles go like that but for sake of discussion Im using this as an example. So when I talk about putting the black belt on a pedestal this is what I mean. In terms of time and difficulty its a much bigger jump to go from brown high to first degree black than it is to go from brown middle to brown high. It takes much longer and its much harder to go from brown high to first degree black than it is to go from brown middle to brown high. So what they're doing is they're putting the black belt on a pedestal which I think is a bit ridiculous. Naturally getting a 1st degree black belt will be harder than getting a high level brown belt as its a higher rank but it shouldn't be much harder and it shouldn't take much longer, if it does then there should be ranks in between brown high and first degree black. In Japan the first degree black belt, from what I've heard, is seen as just another belt, simply the belt after brown high and before 2nd degree black. That's how it should be seen in the USA too. If the first degree black belt is not such a big deal as some of the people on this board like to say, than getting from high brown to first degree black shouldn't be such a big jump. Obviously, going from white to black would be a tremendous jump and that's why students don't go from white to black they go through all the various colors of belts, belt by belt, but going from high brown to black shouldn't be such a jump, after all, its only going up one level.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I've talked before about how lots of dojos particularly in the USA put the black belt on a pedestal, and what I mean by that is how it fits in with the rest of the ranking system. Although a first degree black belt is not the highest rank in most styles, for those styles that use a black belt in their ranking systems its often the highest color that you will wear no matter what rank you get to in your martial arts career. After first degree black is second degree black, than third degree, fourth degree, ect. but your belt color does not change. Some styles do use different colored belts for some of the really high degrees. Judo has a red and white belt that a sensei who has reached, I believe seventh degree, might wear in place of a black belt and so forth but even styles that do use different colors for the really high degrees doesn't mean the sensei will always wear it. Some sensei's might just hang their red and white or whatever color it is belt up on the wall and continue to wear the black belt that they got when they reached 1st degree when they teach. So, although 1st degree black belt is not the highest rank in most styles that use rank, its often the highest color.

Anyway, what I mean when I talk about how some places, particularly in the USA might put the black belt on a pedestal, what I mean is this. Although ranking systems vary from place to place, most places that use a ranking system have a few things in common. On your first day you start with a white belt (or no belt as in some places you start with no belt). From there you progress up the various colors of belts and eventually you get a brown belt. In lots of styles there are three levels of brown so when you first get a brown belt you're brown low. From there you get to brown middle and then brown high. After brown high is first degree black belt. I know that not all styles go like that but for sake of discussion Im using this as an example. So when I talk about putting the black belt on a pedestal this is what I mean. In terms of time and difficulty its a much bigger jump to go from brown high to first degree black than it is to go from brown middle to brown high. It takes much longer and its much harder to go from brown high to first degree black than it is to go from brown middle to brown high. So what they're doing is they're putting the black belt on a pedestal which I think is a bit ridiculous. Naturally getting a 1st degree black belt will be harder than getting a high level brown belt as its a higher rank but it shouldn't be much harder and it shouldn't take much longer, if it does then there should be ranks in between brown high and first degree black. In Japan the first degree black belt, from what I've heard, is seen as just another belt, simply the belt after brown high and before 2nd degree black. That's how it should be seen in the USA too. If the first degree black belt is not such a big deal as some of the people on this board like to say, than getting from high brown to first degree black shouldn't be such a big jump. Obviously, going from white to black would be a tremendous jump and that's why students don't go from white to black they go through all the various colors of belts, belt by belt, but going from high brown to black shouldn't be such a jump, after all, its only going up one level.

That little jump can be quite high considering the teacher is looking for a serious attitude adjustment. As for Black Belts on a pedestal, I would like to sing a little song, "Nobody knows the black belts I've seeeeeeeen..."

 

[Danny T]

It would all depend upon the requirements set forth by the organization or the instructor one is training with. Meet those requirements and you will advance in within the ranking structure. It means nothing other than one has met the particular requirements.

 

[Chris Parker]

I've talked before about how lots of dojos particularly in the USA put the black belt on a pedestal, and what I mean by that is how it fits in with the rest of the ranking system. Although a first degree black belt is not the highest rank in most styles, for those styles that use a black belt in their ranking systems its often the highest color that you will wear no matter what rank you get to in your martial arts career. After first degree black is second degree black, than third degree, fourth degree, ect. but your belt color does not change. Some styles do use different colored belts for some of the really high degrees. Judo has a red and white belt that a sensei who has reached, I believe seventh degree, might wear in place of a black belt and so forth but even styles that do use different colors for the really high degrees doesn't mean the sensei will always wear it. Some sensei's might just hang their red and white or whatever color it is belt up on the wall and continue to wear the black belt that they got when they reached 1st degree when they teach. So, although 1st degree black belt is not the highest rank in most styles that use rank, its often the highest color.

Anyway, what I mean when I talk about how some places, particularly in the USA might put the black belt on a pedestal, what I mean is this. Although ranking systems vary from place to place, most places that use a ranking system have a few things in common. On your first day you start with a white belt (or no belt as in some places you start with no belt). From there you progress up the various colors of belts and eventually you get a brown belt. In lots of styles there are three levels of brown so when you first get a brown belt you're brown low. From there you get to brown middle and then brown high. After brown high is first degree black belt. I know that not all styles go like that but for sake of discussion Im using this as an example. So when I talk about putting the black belt on a pedestal this is what I mean. In terms of time and difficulty its a much bigger jump to go from brown high to first degree black than it is to go from brown middle to brown high. It takes much longer and its much harder to go from brown high to first degree black than it is to go from brown middle to brown high. So what they're doing is they're putting the black belt on a pedestal which I think is a bit ridiculous. Naturally getting a 1st degree black belt will be harder than getting a high level brown belt as its a higher rank but it shouldn't be much harder and it shouldn't take much longer, if it does then there should be ranks in between brown high and first degree black. In Japan the first degree black belt, from what I've heard, is seen as just another belt, simply the belt after brown high and before 2nd degree black. That's how it should be seen in the USA too. If the first degree black belt is not such a big deal as some of the people on this board like to say, than getting from high brown to first degree black shouldn't be such a big jump. Obviously, going from white to black would be a tremendous jump and that's why students don't go from white to black they go through all the various colors of belts, belt by belt, but going from high brown to black shouldn't be such a jump, after all, its only going up one level.

Er… what?

Look, I think I get what you're getting at… but it's largely bluster and wind. There are some large and largely inaccurate generalisations here, as well as quite a lot of misconceptions about the way ranking is dealt with in many forms (historically, contemporarily, and culturally), which gives a result of a fairly directionless post, in the end saying nothing. You're mistaking the relative importance of Shodan (in systems that use it) for what it represents, and what it means/takes to achieve it… as well as ignoring the cultural reasons for different impressions. Why is a blackbelt seen as "expert" in the West? Well, that's to do with the way Westerners tend to view progressions, as well as the fact that early pioneers had relatively low Dan grades… the idea of a blackbelt was built up in the zeitgeist as something of value and respect (something that continues today, which is why there is such backlash against junior Dan grades, despite the fact that, as Donald said, it's entirely up to the system/organisation/school itself).

The idea of black being the "last colour" really doesn't mean anything either, you realise… honestly, I have trouble seeing where to start with the number of problems in that post…

 

[Cirdan]

Colored belts are not used because white to black would be "a tremendous jump", do you just write down whatever pops into your mind in these posts and pretend it is accurate?

 

[hussaf]

the only people I know that put a black belt on a pedestal don't actually train in Martial arts

 

[tshadowchaser]

the only people I know that put a black belt on a pedestal don't actually train in Martial arts

I think you may be wrong on this one. Beginning students look upon a black belt holder in their system like they are on a different world.
I think that most people not in the arts tend to say "oh ya that nice" and could care less because almost everyone seems to be a black belt these days. Being a black belt today means way less than it did 4o years ago

 

[hussaf]

I guess I didn't really consider newer students when I made that statement. When I was uchideshi I was told I didn't rate an opinion until I've trained for ten years , lol maybe that's what I was subconsciously thinking of

 

[Dirty Dog]

I've seen black belts on pedestals after tournaments, but that's really it...

 

[Takai]

It is fine to put a black belt on a pedestal. It is just as simple to knock one off. In the end it isn't the belt color, it is the requirements and skill level require to attain the rank that are important. The belt only covers 2 inches of your %$#... you have to cover the rest of it.

 

[Zero]

I guess I didn't really consider newer students when I made that statement. When I was uchideshi I was told I didn't rate an opinion until I've trained for ten years , lol maybe that's what I was subconsciously thinking of

That's good, if that's your experience, unfortunately I have come across quite a few black belts and in different styles that due to that very belt fancied themselves something shocking and some of them couldn't fight their way out of a perforated recycled paper bag. Funnily enough, this was more in the striking styles such as TKD and karate rather than the judo. Not sure how they role in bjj but am sure there are clowns in every style.

 

[PhotonGuy]

The black belt has reached a somewhat mythical status in the west but in Japan first degree black belt is just seen as another rank, the rank after 1st Kyu (which is often a brown belt) and before 2nd Dan. Shodan, the Japanese word for first degree black belt is literally translated as "low man." So therefore I don't see why a sensei from Japan would view it as such a big deal, and would make the test for Shodan much harder than the test for 1st Kyu.

 

[Hanzou]

Depends on the art really...

In Bjj it can take over a decade to reach a black belt, and you're fully expected to be able to demonstrate the skill of your rank constantly. Needless to say, black belts in Bjj are put on a pedestal, and its well deserved.

 

[K-man]

It can take a decade to get a black belt in any style. I accept that there is rigorous training to get a black belt in BJJ but I do not accept it has a higher status than a black belt I award in any discipline. Whether other black belts compare is up to the individual schools.

 

[Danny T]

The black belt has reached a somewhat mythical status in the west but in Japan first degree black belt is just seen as another rank, the rank after 1st Kyu (which is often a brown belt) and before 2nd Dan. Shodan, the Japanese word for first degree black belt is literally translated as "low man." So therefore I don't see why a sensei from Japan would view it as such a big deal, and would make the test for Shodan much harder than the test for 1st Kyu.

I don't see why anyone would be concerned about what a rank is in some other school or country for that matter. Rank is base upon what the requirements are for the particular school or organization and that is all. Be concerned about developing your skills and abilities with the organization you are training with. If you are happy with your training great if not then go somewhere else.
The term hard is a subjective thing when applied to testing levels. If you are ready mentally, physically, skill wise, and knowledge wise for the level and material you are testing in then it won't be hard. It may be pushing you to your limits and if you are not prepared properly then yes it will be hard. Is it a fair test for level you are testing for? If so then be ready.

BB is just another level, a milestone for some but for me every BB level I've achieved has only pushed me to work for a better understanding of the system and the potential applications. Some of the arts I train like Kali and Silat don't have belts or ranks until completing the system - other than certain schools for personal goals. In my school when someone achieves BB we clap, pat them on the back, give them a certificate and tell them congratulations now go train.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The black belt has reached a somewhat mythical status in the west but in Japan first degree black belt is just seen as another rank, the rank after 1st Kyu (which is often a brown belt) and before 2nd Dan. Shodan, the Japanese word for first degree black belt is literally translated as "low man." So therefore I don't see why a sensei from Japan would view it as such a big deal, and would make the test for Shodan much harder than the test for 1st Kyu.

Well, no, this is more in your head than anywhere else, I think It's a symptom of your unhealthy obsession with rank and has been commented on before.

 

[K-man]

Colored belts are not used because white to black would be "a tremendous jump", do you just write down whatever pops into your mind in these posts and pretend it is accurate?

I'm not sure that this is what Touch of Death was meaning. In my Aikido we didn't have coloured belts at first. We still graded through various levels but kept the white belt. When coloured belts were introduced I went from white to brown. Going from a white belt to black belt without grading in between would be a tremendous jump.

 

[Hanzou]

It can take a decade to get a black belt in any style. I accept that there is rigorous training to get a black belt in BJJ but I do not accept it has a higher status than a black belt I award in any discipline. Whether other black belts compare is up to the individual schools.

Who said anything about your school/training or other styles? I was only talking about Bjj.

 

[K-man]

Who said anything about your school/training or other styles? I was only talking about Bjj.

Lol. Read the OP again. You were talking about BJJ. The OP is talking about black belts in general. You said black belts in BJJ are on a pedestal that infers that they are so much better than other black belts because they take up to 10 years to earn. It is a measure of progress within the BJJ system, nothing more. I cannot compare anyone's black belt with anyone else's so the only comparison I have is belts that I award. They relate to our training and, to me, my students have earned them with every bit of effort that your have put in to earn yours. We don't put our black belts on a pedestal. They are just an indication of where you are on your MA journey. Obviously you are at the pinnacle of your career, up there at the top with your black belt. Sad really, no where further to go.

BTW, do you have a black belt in BJJ? I have only heard you talk of your Shotokan belt.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I was at a award ceremony this summer where a young man was awarded his black belt after 15 years of training. Dose he consider he should be put on a pedestal or do his family and friends feel that way? NO, because he knows there are those that know so much more about the system he studies and have way more time in study.
Are certain people looked on with Awe yes but not because they have a black belt but for the knowledge they possess and what they have acomplished