lklawson

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@Steve: I've not seen them but if they've been recently 'developed' with the sole purpose of being more appealing to clients yeah there are good chances that they are ridiculous. I'm not sure how representative of the art they are, though.
I've been watching this exact debate, in particular the Wing Chun vs "grappling," since the mid-1990's, quite literally. So, call it roughly TWO BLASTED DECADES of the same stupid debate. Frankly, it was about that time that I started seeing WC "anti-grappling" techniques and they ranged anywhere from "might work sometimes if the grappler isn't too skilled" at the best, all the way down to "completely idiotic." Wing Chun at the time, at least as was popularly taught in the U.S., did not have effective ground-wrestling skills nor effective skills to prevent take-downs. It did seem to have other elements of what could be called "standing grappling," most notably the trapping stuff including pak sao, lop sao, etc. How "effective" those are for "fighting" is a different debate. However, it is my experience that, at the time, WC in the U.S. simply did not include an effective skill set to counter the skill set of BJJ, Wrestling, Judo, Shuai Jiao, and similar arts which include a strong focus on take-downs and ground-grappling. To address these "deficiencies," many people promoting WC in the U.S. included something that they thought would counter take-down attempts and it was generally labeled "anti-grappling."

My point was that it would be strange if, at any point of its history, no one ever tackled any of the 'big names' of WC or one of their students.
At the height of the debate there were several highly published "challenge" matches, and even a few WC vs WC type matches which were video recorded. Speaking as someone with grappling, take-down, throwing, and ground-fighting experience, none of them showed any particularly notable skill. Most of them showed skills in that area which are easily exceeded by a teenage Judoka with about 1.5 years of training. Further, Internet video was becoming popular and many "big names" started uploading their "anti-grappling" solutions intended to counter take-down and throws. Again, the vast majority of them were unworkable but had the appearance of something that might work if the viewer were not an initiate to take-downs, throws, etc. The most common one was some variation of an elbow to the back or a rabbit punch to the neck during a wrestling style "shoot." A few of them were "punch him in the face, that's sure to stop anyone." There is also a problem of semantics and actual technique. By that I mean, that no one with ground-grappling training or take-down training uses what is commonly called a "tackle" as you just referred to it. It works well in American Football but not so well in grappling arts. However, the uninitiated to grappling are often simply unable to discern the difference between a "tackle" and a "shoot" while the difference between them are starkly obvious to a someone with grappling training.

So, speaking as someone who's been watching this stupid debate for 20 years now, while it does indeed seem strange that no one in WC had ever thought of how to fight a "wrastler," the available evidence does, in fact, seem to lead to that conclusion.

I agree that they didn't train with the primary focus of dealing with grappling but it doesn't mean that they've never considered getting taken down and that they've never come up with a countermeasure.
The "countermeasure" which I've seen being taught by WC instructors simply won't work against someone with training in an art which teaches takedowns. At best, being charitable, they might work against someone who's sole training in take-downs & grappling was watching WWE.

I've seen angry kids and untrained adults do 'takedowns', it makes sense that WC offers some kind of countermeasure for these situations
I don't know what you've seen, but it is my experience that anyone who is untrained in a physical art is even close to the skill level and technique of someone who is trained in it.

(although its developers probably did not have in mind judo/bjj's sophisticated take on groundfighting).
Or Shuai Jiao?

My experience watching this debate for 20 years is that there will now follow a debate or argument about whether or not "sophisticated grappling" is a threat "in streetfights" to be concerned with, whether grappling training is "any good for streetfights," and we may see something about gravel, broken glass, HIV infected needles, and lava.

Gads, this debate is like the martial arts version of a musical ear-worm. It just won't go away and keeps replaying itself over and over again.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
 

Tez3

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I think there should be a ban on X versus Y threads or else just have one sticky where those that wish to have the style v style arguments can chunter away to their hearts content.
 

Danny T

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Umm... Boxing used to have trips, throws, a lock or two, a couple of chokes, backfists, hammer-fists, spinning-backfists, hair pulling, eye-gouging, rabbit punches, an "accidental" kick or two, and even a few of what could be called "vital point" or "pressure point" attacks, you know this, right?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Yeap. But generally isn't taught in boxing today. Sure you see some holding and punching or back hand punching from time to time and in the clinch the shoulder, elbow, and even head butting by those pressing the limits of the rules.

There are a lot of people in MMA who do some training in FMA specifically for these infighting 'dirty boxing' aspects where it isn't dirty it is what they do and is allowed in MMA.
 

Tony Dismukes

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Jon Jones uses the wing chun bil gee a lot.

Well, it's technically against the rules and he gets called out for being a dirty fighter, but I guess until a ref actually DQs him he'll keep using it.

(I have no idea if Jones got the idea from Wing Chun or JKD or elsewhere, but I do admit that it looks kind of bil gee-ish.)
 

Danny T

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Well, it's technically against the rules and he gets called out for being a dirty fighter, but I guess until a ref actually DQs him he'll keep using it.

(I have no idea if Jones got the idea from Wing Chun or JKD or elsewhere, but I do admit that it looks kind of bil gee-ish.)
With Jones, it is a tactic. Everyone knows it is against the rules and everyone knows it can happen accidentally and everyone knows with Jones 'It Will Happen'. Why because it happens with every one of his opponents every one. In the circles I associate with we make bets as to when during the fight he will do so.
 

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Well, it's technically against the rules and he gets called out for being a dirty fighter, but I guess until a ref actually DQs him he'll keep using it.

(I have no idea if Jones got the idea from Wing Chun or JKD or elsewhere, but I do admit that it looks kind of bil gee-ish.)
I bet he got the idea from the Robert Downey Jr. interview on the Late Show with David Letterman. Look it up; it's hilarious.
 

drop bear

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I think there should be a ban on X versus Y threads or else just have one sticky where those that wish to have the style v style arguments can chunter away to their hearts content.

Can i get a ban on threads i am not interested in as well?

I supose we could just engage in conversation we are interested in.
 

drop bear

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Well, it's technically against the rules and he gets called out for being a dirty fighter, but I guess until a ref actually DQs him he'll keep using it.

(I have no idea if Jones got the idea from Wing Chun or JKD or elsewhere, but I do admit that it looks kind of bil gee-ish.)

Plenty of chun ideas in mma. They even vertical fist now.
 

Steve

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My man, robert Downey Jr., talks about in at length with David letterman at 3:28 of this video. Pretty funny, too.

 

Kung Fu Wang

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As someone who is unfamiliar with wing chun, can someone please explain what bil gee is?
"(Biao Gee)" is the 3rd form of the WC system. In that form, you train how to use the finger tips to attack.

biao_gee.jpg
 

Danny T

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"(Biao Gee)" is the 3rd form of the WC system. In that form, you train how to use the finger tips to attack.

biao_gee.jpg
Uhh... Yes and No.
3rd empty hand form - yes
We learn to use the finger tips to attack in training in the 1st form.

Biu Jee is thrusting fingers. Often used as finger jabs to the eyes. (like Jon Jones)
 
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Tez3

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Far be it for me to stir here but this is a duplicate thread of one on the WC section only the posters there said their thread was better because they are wittier and cleverer. Just thought you should know ROFL.:D:D
 

Hanzou

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I haven't. Did WC not have anti-grappling methods before then?

The type of grappling common in MMA? Nope.

They've developed new anti-grappling training in response to modern MMA?

Yep, and it's pretty damn embarrassing.

Has WC not had representation in lei tai matches? I haven't checked to be sure, but I'd be very surprised if that were true.

Well if that is the case, what happened to their participation in recent decades?
 

Tony Dismukes

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Far be it for me to stir here but this is a duplicate thread of one on the WC section only the posters there said their thread was better because they are wittier and cleverer. Just thought you should know ROFL.:D:D
Which is better, "Wing Chun vs MMA" in the Wing Chun forum or "Wing Chun vs MMA" in the General Self Defense forum? Please no comments about how one thread is not better than another.
 

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So you're implying that training MMA is better than training Wing Chun if you want to compete in MMA. I think so too.

I also think that an MMA stylist would do poorly in a Wing Chun grading test.

The thing is that "training MMA" differs based on the person doing it, and a lot of it depends on their core styles. There should be no reason why a Wing Chun stylist couldn't come into MMA and do well, since Wing Chun is supposed to be a "complete martial art". I wouldn't expect someone who practices Muay Thai and Wrestling to do well at a Wing Chun grading test, but I would expect a Wing Chun exponent to be able to fight against another trained martial artist in a competition with rules since nothing in the MMA ruleset works against Wing Chun.

However, those two statements don't mean anything regarding the question in the OP which is 'which one would help me the most for self defense?'.

Well frankly I find the arts that tend to work towards MMA to be a bit more upfront and honest than the more traditional MAs that avoid MMA completely. For example, if you go to a Muay Thai gym and ask them about grappling, they'll tell you to cross train at a grappling school. You ask that in a traditional MA school, you'll probably learn some nonsensical anti-grappling that will get your face planted into the concrete.

Btw it's weird to hear that WC guys are 'now developing anti grappling techniques'. It's difficult to believe that in the seemingly long story of Wing Chun no instructor ever thought to himself 'what do I do if I ever get grappled/tackled'. The UFC is indeed a blessing, no man ever would have thought about grappling/takedowns before. Don't listen to the haters, though, they'll say it's judo.

Look up Wing Chun/Ving Tsun anti-grappling on the web. They're recent additions to the art, but a few of the instructors outright lied about their origin claiming that they've always been part of the art, completely embarrassing themselves in the process. However, WC is hardly the only TMA who is guilty of this, so what can you do?
 

Spinoza

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The type of grappling common in MMA? Nope.
Well, as far as my own personal observation goes, I'd have to ask a WC practitioner and a modern grappling MMA practitioner.

Well if that is the case, what happened to their participation in recent decades?
I'm not sure, and I'm not sure if that should be an ultimate determination of its application in self defense. MMA competitions, as much as I may enjoy them, are prone to popular trends in MA styles. Trends which (9 times out of 10) will have nothing to do with self defense applications.
 

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Well, as far as my own personal observation goes, I'd have to ask a WC practitioner and a modern grappling MMA practitioner.

If WC natively contained it, you wouldn't need stuff like this added to it;


I'm not sure, and I'm not sure if that should be an ultimate determination of its application in self defense. MMA competitions, as much as I may enjoy them, are prone to popular trends in MA styles. Trends which (9 times out of 10) will have nothing to do with self defense applications.

The "popular trends" have been in place for the better part of 20 years. Even longer than that when you include Vale Tudo's history.
 

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