Why do Middle Class & Upperclass victims INSIST going 1 on 1 on bullies?Without getting into shape?

7BallZ

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Found this tumblr.

Why Middle Class and Upperclass victims of bullying insist on “Fighting” one-on-one? Without pumping themselves up?



ChatWithMarcMacYoung said:
First of have you ever watched the movie The Family staring Robert De Niro?

If you didn’t watch it because not only is it a lovely FANTASTIC movie but in many ways you’ll be impressed with how it accurately reflects many concepts you mentioned on your NoNoneSenseSelfDefense website.

However one scene in the movie struck me. love I don’t want to put a spoiler but its a significant part of the scene but I’ll go ahead. Sadly I can’t seem to find these two specific scenes (and I don’t want to get either of us int trouble by posting a link to the full movie) so I’ll try to do as brief a summary as possible.

One of the members of the “family”, Blake, gets beaten up by a bunch of bullies because he’s an American who just immigrated into France and it doesn’t help that he has a sharp tongue that just inspires the French gang students to jump him (love I wish I a scene was lying around because this just shows fantastically how a victim escalated the situation with non-physical violence).

Blake gets all sorts of injuries. He plans for revenge……

However rather than training in kickboxing or lifting heavy weights to get bigger muscles, the first thing Blake does when he gets home is get lots of cash from his piggy bank. Next he gets his baseball bat.

I don’t know how much time passed since the beating, but bLake is shown talking to some other large and violent French students also at his school. He gives them a paycheck and says “I have a favor”.

15 minutes later (after some scenes involving the other member so the “family”), the bullies who jumped Blake are shown walking in an alley. Out of nowhere they get ambushed by the “acquaintances” Blake just made. As its obvious they are losing against the ambushers, the ring leader (the one who not only lead the bullies to surround Blake earlier in the film and threw the first punch after Blake threw a sharp comment) runs aways.

Out of nowhere Blake appears with his baseball bat. The bully than backs away from the escape route and begins crying begging for mercy and apologizing. But Blake simply gets his bat and whacks the ringleader KOing him unconscious. For the rest of the movie no one ever physically threatens Blake again and whenever some guy starts **** (thats not physical such as telling Blake insults), his acquaintances (who became his Blake’s bodyguard) walks in front and the smartass immediately shuts his mouth and backs away in a terrified manner.

Now I watched The Family years ago before I discovered your writings. But I was completely shocked at the way Blake handled the bullying.

At various points in my childhood I was bullied. A few ties I was jumped like Blake. My response was to take martial arts classes. As oppose to the movies, however learning martial arts were a mixed bag. Some bullies end up kicking my *** once again everytime I stood up for my self. Other bullies fought back hard and I got hurt but they were more cautious about choosing me as a target. Most bullies STOPPED me once I punched them hard and they actually feared choosing me as their victim afterwards (to the point some where ever backing off in paranoia or running away once they see me in the hallway).

Now I must point when I took martial arts classes I am referring to hard contact classes (a la kickboxing and MMA style sparring). In addition I didn’t just take a few classes every weekend. I actually did hard physical training that included heavy weightlifting, hitting the heavy bag, and running for hours. So wen I took on the bully I was indeed “armed to the teeth to fight”. Even against the guys who still kicked my *** a few times (even though I spent the time between the last beating hardening my body further to prepare to defend myself), the very last time they fucked with me (usually 5th or 6th), I didn’t just comeback stronger but I’d bring brass knuckles (that I’d hid under wearing a glove or mitten) and I finally won because the tougher bullies get bloody injuries ( a few busted jaws and bones in some cases) and they get so scared I developed the power to break them (despite them kicking my *** everytime I fought them for the last 5 times). Like they have the expression “sure I know he gets stronger after the last beating I gave him but I didn’t know he’d get this strong this time!” (and none of them were aware I brought brass knuckes and hid them in handwear I was wearing).

Now that the preliminary stuff has been put, you wrote a few things in your site.

“Many people in the martial arts have been bullied in the past. And, to a particular mindset, the idea of going out and learning how to fight off bullies makes perfect and logical sense. What it fails to take into consideration, however, is that it is often a continuation of the exact same mindset that got them selected for bullying in the first place! Sure, it’s now on steroids, but it’s the same core idea. He’s going to handle it by himself.”

When I read this thing, it immediately makes me think of how Blake got his vendetta by hiring other punks and bringing a baseball bat when he hit the bullies for revenge.

Hell as you seen me wrote, I am guilty of it because I trained myself after I got my *** kicked.

Having witnessed what you wrote, though even I myself admit I am shocked as hell how many victims in the middle and upper classes try to handle bullies.

I may have trained to get stronger but I lovely trained hard. Hard enough to easily qualify as a gym rat and do manual labour. And even I “cheated” in some of my encounters when they got too tough and I was getting my *** kicked frequently by bringing a strike enhancer (most commonly a brass knuckles).

An extra detail you fail to mention is that these bullied victims are FACING BULLIES in the same EXACT CIRCUMSTANCES. Sure they received some training but they are not all that superior in physical conditioning from the last beating and even though they practise, they only do so once a week (and under easy conditions aka hitting the air without refining techniques).

So when I think about Blake’s handling of the bullying (and how it reminded I sort of am guilty of doing the same cheating by bringing brass knuckles and other dirty little tools)…….

I am wondering WHAT THE HELL is up with the Middle Class and Upper Class mentality of insisting to take on bullies in a one-on-one fair fight?! In particular without properly preparing themselves for a conflict (like the way I did lifting weights to gain mass and hitting heavy bags several hours a day)?!

I mean don’t many of these victims understand that to become efficient at fighting that you not only need to condition yourself but more importantly just taking a karate class once a week ain’t cutting it?

I agree with you that having a social network who can take on said bullies is the best way to handle them.But since bullied kids frequently insist going one-on-one……

Can’t they realize that in the first place they LOSE fights because they are way out of shape? And they insist letting the bully get adrenalized to rock and roll under dueling style circumstances?

It may come off as a rant but the way Blake handled bullying really changed my views when it comes to “stopping bullying”. Blake didn’t take them again in a toe-to-toe confrontation but he AMBUSHED them and with a weapon and some other punks as allies. Even I (who did exactly as you said in your quote,train myself to fight bullies), understood that I was going to have to pump myself up and become as strong and large as these bullies if I was going to take them in a fight. And despite gaining mass and getting muscles, I HAD to use a few strike enhancers and dirty tricks against some of the tougher bullies.

Read the last sentence-because in addition to insisting one letting the bully be aware a fight is going to take place and refusing to commit the necessary time to build the body needed for fighting, I even seen typical middle class and upper class victims try to fight so much under SPORT STYLE RULES that they never think of something as simple as throwing a stone or eyegouging their bully for an opponent. Most of them can’t even think of using some of the sports stuff in MMA that smaller lighter opponents use to beat heavier opponents in professional fights (such as tackle the legs,sweeps, or pin enemy to a wall using body weight).

I notice the Middle Class and Upper Class mentality is to fight someone ALMOST ALWAYS using purely “kickboxing” style strikes and nothing else.

I know MMA charged the mentality a bit and we are seeing some victims now use leg takedowns and other techniques designed to fight larger people when they take on the bully next time. But even among those middle and upper class victims who specifically learn MMA, the overall insistence is one kickboxing style attacks.

I cannot get around this psychology so common in dignity cultures. I come from an upper middle class family and even before I took martial arts I already had the common sense to say take a stone and smash it on a bullies head to create an opening to tackle him onto the ground. So I can’t quite get why the Middle Class and upperclass mentality is so stubbonrly sticking to “punching the other guy”, insisting one one-on-one fights, never thinking outside the box and say bringing a yawara stick or similar object to enhance hitting power, and most of all NEVER conditioning themselves properly to be in the same league as the bully in physical strength.

What is the psychology in this?
 
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Dirty Dog

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JP3

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I'm trying to resist.... really, I am...

Dammit, I can't. It wasn' upper class, or even middle when I did it, but I followed the pattern in the article.

Ok, ya got me, I admit it. I failed. But I did read my strategy and tactics books, train like a fiend, Divided and Conquered, etc. So what?
 

punisher73

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Ok, besides the obvious, "it's a movie" tact.

In the movie, they are a well known and notorious "Mob Family" that is in witness relocation. Working in LE/Corrections for almost 20 years, it is not uncommon for criminal elements to really go overboard in getting revenge. Which also fits into the criminal aspect of their family.
 

Danny T

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Not certain but I'm truly thinking that in my world there are some major differences between movie entertainment fantasy and reality in real life. I think I'll research more movies for comparison.
 
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7BallZ

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You; really missing the point.

I chose THe Family as an analogy because it portrays a contradictory mindset to whats being taught as "self Defense" and "anti-bullying measures" in the mainstream Western world. Ya might want to read this post before reading the rest of what I'll write.

Marc MacYoung - Someone asked why so many martial artists... | Facebook

And this post.

MA Lies about Self-defense

Marc MacYoung's humorous short story about a bear raping a hunter.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/bear_hunting.htm#agenda

As well as Marc MacYoung's basics on bullying.

Bullies and NOT backing down

and this AllExpert question on the topic

Self Defense: Does bullying happen to people with traits that by theory should deter it (WTF immense physical strength and HUGE TALL BUFF Body, lots of social connections, superb people skills, not a nerd and is someone into the latest fads, etc)?


Hopefully you can understand what I meant by the basic topic of my thread.

But the bear is exactly what I can't understand. Sure many bullied victims from middle class and upper class take a few martial arts lessons but not only do they neither take the training seriously or more importantly physically build their bodies to even the ground against a bully.

They just assume that a few weekend lessons and BAM they are Captain Karate and they beat up the bully next time.

As typical for bullied victims they get their asses kicked once. Go take a few more lessons and do crappy subpar training. Gets *** kicked in the next bullying scenario. Train for more lessons. Gets *** kicked again. REPEAT. REPEAT. REPEAT. REPEAT. REPEAT. Over and over. A cycle of going back into trainign only into getting *** whooping.

WITHOUT even understanding what gave the bully such as huge edge that allowed said bully to win. NOT once have many bullied middle class and upper class has realized that they'll need to gain physical prowress if they intend to take their tormentors on.

They don't even understand that just learnigna few kicks and punches and practising less than 1 hour a week ain't gonna cut it in developing the proper technical mechanics that will allow a weaker person to defend himself against a larger man.

MOST OF ALL they keep insisting on going one-on-one is precisely whey they keep getting bullied!!!!!!!!

If they get a bunch of friends to ambush said bully in a dark alley or bring some hidden trump card like a bsaeball bat, they wouldn't have gotten beaten up in the next encounter. I mean the Tumblr's post of sneaking in brass knuckles ina glove or mitten to fight off a bully he keeps losing to is exactly why he wins in the end and scares the bully from ever stopping him again.

And this is a guy who keeps prefering to "fight" a bully in a duel instead of doing more practical tricks like tackling said bullly in a wall. But even he admits that he had to physically train himself to gain mass and big muscles in order to defend himself againsst bullies in a face-to-face battle (in addition to practising realistic full contact blows and sparring).

Thats what a meant. I f a brawler realizes the need to condition physically and even had to throw some dirty tricks like brass knuckles to stop a bully from harassing hims, why can't middle class and upper class bullied victims understand this?

I mean instead of taking those crappy martial arts class, has the Sci Fi nerd ever though of geting a hammer and breaking the bully's arm? Has the puny 5'2 guy ever thought of getting his larger 6'6 muscular brother to beat up bully so he won't face continuous assaults in school?
 
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Tez3

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I mean instead of taking those crappy martial arts class,

Ok I think that's about enough now isn't it? You cannot come on to a martial arts site which has many very experienced martial artists and tell us that martial arts classes are crap. People has been far more patient with you than perhaps you deserve and now you are insulting everyone.
All you are doing is asking questions on a website then posting them here and they are all to do with works of fiction. You also cannot keep quoting Marc MacYoung as if he were the sole arbiter of anything to do with martial arts and self defence, we have experienced police officers here, bouncers, fighters, martial artists, MMA fighters and martial artists from all styles here.
Your OP here is concerned only with how characters in films act, in fact American middle and upper class isn't even the same as other countries so many of us wouldn't recognise what type of people you are talking about.
Bullying is a serious subject in real life, you by posting this are making a mockery of the suffering real people go through, children are killing themselves because of bullying and you only talk about fictional characters in films made to entertain.
Please, go train a martial art.
 

Ironbear24

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I really don't understand what your point here is, are you saying that martial arts is not the way to go to learn to defend yourself? Or suggesting that martial artists also improve their bodies along with learning to fight? If that is the case many already are doing that, it is not something rare.
 

Touch Of Death

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I will play along. So, the martial artist in, "Valley Girl" was trying beat up the thug heart throb. Although, he was only out to protect his Valley Girl, she really wasn't his, and he was gonna kick that guy's butt, but then that thug forgot to say, "Go," and sneaked a few in on him. I was a bad day for the rich kid, but later after the movie was over, he told his teacher what had happened, and the teacher closed his eyes, and said, "You have much to learn weed hopper..." :)....
...
 
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Tony Dismukes

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I don't know who wrote the original blog post, but it sure reads like Orcophile's work. Long, rambling, semi-coherent, confusing movies with reality, obsessed with Marc MacYoung but misunderstanding what Marc writes, asking questions based on faulty premises. If it wasn't Orcophile, does that mean there are more like him out there?

If they get a bunch of friends to ambush said bully in a dark alley or bring some hidden trump card like a bsaeball bat, they wouldn't have gotten beaten up in the next encounter. I mean the Tumblr's post of sneaking in brass knuckles ina glove or mitten to fight off a bully he keeps losing to is exactly why he wins in the end and scares the bully from ever stopping him again.

So - your question is why middle and upper-class folks are less likely to settle disputes by leading armed gangs to ambush their adversaries in a dark alley? Perhaps because they have something to lose if they are charged with assault with a deadly weapon and attempted murder.

Has the puny 5'2 guy ever thought of getting his larger 6'6 muscular brother to beat up bully so he won't face continuous assaults in school?

Probably. Where do you get the idea that this doesn't happen.
 

Tez3

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So - your question is why middle and upper-class folks are less likely to settle disputes by leading armed gangs to ambush their adversaries in a dark alley?

The 'upper class' here ie the aristocracy have the peasants to do that for them or they'll just get their Purdey shotguns out and shoot the buggers. The middle class ( it depends too on whether they are upper middle class or lower middle class, or upper working class pretending to be lower middle class) here isn't judged by money but by breeding so they can be as poor as church mice and have very little to lose but won't lead armed gangs because it's not the done thing. The Upper class can also be skint ( which is why marrying rich Americans who want a title is a popular pastime even now) but would still have Purdeys and let their roofs leak on their stately piles though often the damp patches are mistaken for dog pee. British country houses are notoriously uncomfortable.

Actually what really happens is that we just phone the police and get it sorted that way.
 

lklawson

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I will play along. So, the martial artist in, "Valley Girl" was trying beat up the thug heart throb. Although, he was only out to protect his Valley Girl, she really wasn't his, and he was gonna kick that guy's butt, but then that thug forgot to say, "Go," and sneaked a few in on him. I was a bad day for the rich kid, but later after the movie was over, he told his teacher what had happened, and the teacher closed his eyes, and said, "You have much to learn weed hopper..." :)....
...
Owww! You're making my head hurt! [does that count as no-touch dim mak?] :inpain:

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Buka

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