What is a mcdojo?
- Thread starter bjonson
- Start date
searcher
Senior Master
Those guys scare me to death. They have killed more Americans then any other person in history.
Guardian
Black Belt
LOL, have it your way Geezer "Inherently it is".
See Bjonson, the list of what a Mcdojo is can be long and every persons view will differ. You'll just have to judge for yourself when it comes right down to it.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
There are, I'm sure, excellent martial artists who run their business in such a way that it is a McDojo. The term McDojo is intended to be pejorative by the people who use it and often implies that the instructor is unfit or unskilled in addition to being little more than a con artist. It's both a term used to identify certain characteristics in a MA school and at the same time to make a negative judgement. But it's important to remember that the term IS inherently a negative judgement. In other words, it is an opinion of the person using the term. If you asked.
I guess, though, speaking just about the schools, I differentiate between McDojo and Bullshido (as commonly used). The former term focuses more on selling out and cashing in. The latter refers more to the quality of the instruction.
Look at it this way.
If you go to a local restaurant, you might get a great meal, and you might not. It might be great while a certain chef works there, and go downhill after he or she leaves. It might have a great reputation that it lives up to, and it might not. It might have many awards and great reviews from food critics, and have declined in the years since then. YOU JUST NEVER KNOW.
If you go to a chain restaurant, like McDonalds, or more upscale, like Olive Garden, you pretty much know what you're going to get. The menu is the same no matter where you are. The prices are similar. The food is pretty good - maybe not world-class, but it tastes good and it is familiar, probably won't make you sick. The chefs or cooks probably are not world-class, but they're probably trained and tested to a minimum standard - they may not be "A" students, but at least they're no lower than "C" students.
Restaurants know - they can be the former or the latter. They can be great and local, or they can be national and average-to-slightly-above-average. Those are pretty much their choices.
A dojo is a business like any other. Certainly many get into it for the love of martial arts, or the love of teaching, etc, etc; but most do it to make money, earn a living, get ahead, run a profitable business. Those who are business people have to decide what kind of dojo they will have. A chain of OK dojos or a single one or maybe two high-end dojo's.
So the way I think of it, a McDojo is not necessarily bad. It's not going to be great, most likely, but it should at least conform to a minimum standard.
If you go to a local restaurant, you might get a great meal, and you might not. It might be great while a certain chef works there, and go downhill after he or she leaves. It might have a great reputation that it lives up to, and it might not. It might have many awards and great reviews from food critics, and have declined in the years since then. YOU JUST NEVER KNOW.
If you go to a chain restaurant, like McDonalds, or more upscale, like Olive Garden, you pretty much know what you're going to get. The menu is the same no matter where you are. The prices are similar. The food is pretty good - maybe not world-class, but it tastes good and it is familiar, probably won't make you sick. The chefs or cooks probably are not world-class, but they're probably trained and tested to a minimum standard - they may not be "A" students, but at least they're no lower than "C" students.
Restaurants know - they can be the former or the latter. They can be great and local, or they can be national and average-to-slightly-above-average. Those are pretty much their choices.
A dojo is a business like any other. Certainly many get into it for the love of martial arts, or the love of teaching, etc, etc; but most do it to make money, earn a living, get ahead, run a profitable business. Those who are business people have to decide what kind of dojo they will have. A chain of OK dojos or a single one or maybe two high-end dojo's.
So the way I think of it, a McDojo is not necessarily bad. It's not going to be great, most likely, but it should at least conform to a minimum standard.
You just described all the martial arts schools that are open. The non comercial ones based purly on principle are closed.
Sean
Not mine.
Unless you're speaking in hyperbole, you would have a very hard time supporting this statement.
And just what principle are these ideal schools based purely upon?
Why does noncommercial automatically mean "based purely on principle?" I find that noncommercial is often elevated in ways that it should not be.
A non-commercial can be just as lousy as a commercial school.
Yes, it could be wonderful and offer superior instruction, but it could also be staffed by unqualified instructors and run by an egomaniac who has enough money that he can afford to run a dojo at a loss.
Not trying to nitpick you, Sean, but not even all of the commercial schools adhere to the description of a McDojo that I furnished. Some adhere to all of them and do things that I missed in my description (the aforementioned birthday parties), but some adhere to very little of what I described.
Let me ask you this: do you feel that any commericial studio is automatically inferior to any non-commercial entity?
Are there not things about a commercial school that are of benefit to the students that a non commercial entity may not be able to offer?
Lastly, does commercial automatically mean McDojo?
Daniel
In some ways the money apsect directly effects the way students are taught. You want to keep as many students as you can for as long as you can while constantly bringing in new students to not only replace the ones that leave but allow your school to grow. If money were not an issue and the students weren't allowed to quit, then things would be a lot different.
Sean
searcher
Senior Master
Look at it in terms of McDonalds. They are schools with a "value menu." They will give you anything you want and it seems that you are getting a deal until they add "fries," a "drink," and an "apple pie." Next thing you know, you are fat and you are still not satisfied with what you have consumed.
It has to do more with the level of instruction and wat they are producing. If you walk in and the instructor is wearing a +4th Dan rank and is 19YO, it is a McDojo. Look at the students and how they perform in comparison to the rank they hold. Is it to the standard one would/should expect?
JMHO.
It has to do more with the level of instruction and wat they are producing. If you walk in and the instructor is wearing a +4th Dan rank and is 19YO, it is a McDojo. Look at the students and how they perform in comparison to the rank they hold. Is it to the standard one would/should expect?
JMHO.
fangjian
Black Belt
A McDojo is a school where the instruction is fraudulent, either purposely(the teacher is knowingly lying to their students about whatever;techniques, lineage etc.) or by accident(the teacher himself was lied to about that stuff and is now continuing the vicious cycle of sucking).
Live sparring, forms, weapons, ........
None of these things are absolutely necessary to be a martial art. Live sparring, form,.....could mean many things to different people.
Live sparring, forms, weapons, ........
None of these things are absolutely necessary to be a martial art. Live sparring, form,.....could mean many things to different people.
This is the inherent weakness of the McDojo. Because it is a business model that is focused on collecting a myriad of fees, each item that has a fee associated with it is seen in terms of capturing sales dolars. Thus a two year student is now "ready" to test for his black belt.
Statisitcally, after about two years, most students will drop off if they have not received the coveted belt, and most who stay after receiving it drop off shortly afterward.
Thus to insure capture of the customer's dollars, he, she, or their child is promoted to blackbelt with everyone else. Now the lure is the second dan. Remember, there are no colored belt testings anymore, so it is usually at this point that weapon forms are introduced, with their own accompanying certifications. Then second dan.
If the school can keep a kid around long enough, they will wind up fifth dan before their twentieth birthday. From a financial standpoint, it is a good model. It makes money and keeps the school in business. Unfortunately, the art suffers.
Much in the same way that corporate involvement in music produces a lot of revenue but very little in the way of quality musicians.
Daniel
The truth is closer to the instructors not having a full understanding of the material. Its not like theres a group of instructors that are just like the villian in Karate Kid ll.
Sean
Balrog
Master of Arts
Contracts and debits are not signs of being a McDojo, they are simply good business practice. And make no bones about it - the vast majority of schools are a business. They have to make money to pay the rent and utilities and salaries.
Now I firmly abhor the MASS business model. It's used-car salesmanship and I'm sorrier than hell that I ever attended the seminar. It really is about gouging every cent you can out of your customer and I think it's unethical. But that's just me.
Now I firmly abhor the MASS business model. It's used-car salesmanship and I'm sorrier than hell that I ever attended the seminar. It really is about gouging every cent you can out of your customer and I think it's unethical. But that's just me.
Dave Leverich
Black Belt
Actually no, commercial IS McDojo, but do NOT think that McDojo means that the students aren't learning real martial arts and can kick someones skull in... BS and McDojo aren't mutually exclusive.
Commercial schools that expect to survive, will have some kind of billing service, different programs, proshop etc etc.
Dave Leverich
Black Belt
You're mistaking McDojo for Bullshido (see also the site with the .net at the end of it for more info on those) schools.
Google it, there's a difference. Not all McDojo's are Bullshido. By most people's definition of McDojo, a certain BJJ line classifies, but I can guarantee they're teaching real martial arts. They simply charge a premium price for said instruction.
Well said, Dave. McDojo is a business model. Nothing more and nothing less.
Daniel
Daniel
Wing Woo Gar
Grandmaster
You aren’t likely to get it from a 13 year old thread.
