Twisting your punch

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

For a straight punch, do you think it's better to rotate your hand as you hit, or keep it completely vertical, more like a thrust punch? I've heard both, and am curious about what you guys think is better.

 

[WC_lun]

Twisting the hand without a solid structure behind it will just add more damage to your hand. It is my opinion this is advice offered by people who haven't hit enough stuff. A person who has the experience to put the structure behind the twisting punch, and the occasions that would be advantagious, should have the experience not to tell a beginner to do it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It depends on the circumstances. There are times when a full twisted punch is the best option. Other times when a verticle punch is best.

There are SO very few absolutes...

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

That is generally my opinion too. If you can effectively hit with a punch while twisting your hand, it is useful. However, it is dangerous to do so for many beginners who would only hurt themselves with it. My only concern is that someone who does twist their hand, whether they are a beginner or not, may do it improperly in a high-stress situation, like a fight. Then it could be detrimental, instead of helpful (once again, this is all my opinion, i am by no means an expert and what i say should be taken with MANY grains of salt).

 

[seasoned]

Most people don't punch properly with the twisting punch. If taught wrong, the elbow will turn with the punch and point out at the point of contact.
If the body mechanics are trained and strengthened properly, it is a devastating strike.

 

[seasoned]

[h=1]Shinjo Masanobu Sensei[/h]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWw7N_4O98Q&feature=player_detailpage

Proper way!!

 

[bluewaveschool]

Rotate, it's something we work on from day 1.

 

[K-man]

It also depends where you are punching. Punching high tends to favour a more vertical fist, punching lower, a slight turn to say 45 degrees. Systema training has an exercise where you place your fist on different parts of your partner's body and push, to feel what the most natural position for striking that area would be.

I fail to see the benefit of turning the fist on contact if you are using a flat fist. If you are striking with a knuckle, then the twist strike makes a lot of sense. :asian:

 

[K-man]

For a different perspective .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ufuJUdLqBok&feature=youtube_gdata_player

 

[blindsage]

Or another "correct way" to throw a twisting punch

 

[Cyriacus]

It also depends where you are punching. Punching high tends to favour a more vertical fist, punching lower, a slight turn to say 45 degrees. Systema training has an exercise where you place your fist on different parts of your partner's body and push, to feel what the most natural position for striking that area would be.

I fail to see the benefit of turning the fist on contact if you are using a flat fist. If you are striking with a knuckle, then the twist strike makes a lot of sense. :asian:

Im inclined to agree, with a slight variance. I prefer a 45 degree fist for the head, but nearly horizontal for the body. The head without a twist, the body with.
I cant say why - I suppose like the Systema drill You mentioned, its what You find to be the most natural position.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Our style (Isshin-Ryu) does not use a twisting punch. We generally use a vertical fist. Shimabuku Tatsuo, the creator of our style, used the vertical fist. It is said he later experimented with the twisting punch often seen in other Okinawan karate styles, but he returned to the vertical fist with the opinion that it was the best way to punch in most circumstances. With that said, we do not always land our punches with the fist held vertically, there are many times in kata and kumite when we apply the first horizontally, or in different formations and angles where it is most effective. Sometimes, even with the palm facing up or down. This is not, however, the same as a 'twisting' punch, sometimes known as a 'torqued' punch.

That is not to put down any other style. Clearly, both styles are effective and both work. This is how we do it, but that doesn't mean it is the only way to do it. I found it took awhile to get used to using the vertical fist, but it's second nature to me now, and for me, it seems quite effective, quite stable, and I am able to generate very powerful punches. For others, the twisting punch may be their style and preference. I would not argue with them; if it works for them, then that's great.

 

[punisher73]

Our style (Isshin-Ryu) does not use a twisting punch. We generally use a vertical fist. Shimabuku Tatsuo, the creator of our style, used the vertical fist. It is said he later experimented with the twisting punch often seen in other Okinawan karate styles, but he returned to the vertical fist with the opinion that it was the best way to punch in most circumstances. With that said, we do not always land our punches with the fist held vertically, there are many times in kata and kumite when we apply the first horizontally, or in different formations and angles where it is most effective. Sometimes, even with the palm facing up or down. This is not, however, the same as a 'twisting' punch, sometimes known as a 'torqued' punch.

That is not to put down any other style. Clearly, both styles are effective and both work. This is how we do it, but that doesn't mean it is the only way to do it. I found it took awhile to get used to using the vertical fist, but it's second nature to me now, and for me, it seems quite effective, quite stable, and I am able to generate very powerful punches. For others, the twisting punch may be their style and preference. I would not argue with them; if it works for them, then that's great.

I agree with this. There have been people who have looked into the idea of twisting to add power to the punch and there isn't any.

That being said, I agree with my instructor. The horizontal punch with the twist is not better or worse than the vertical punch to a very well practiced person. We use the vertical punch as our main punch because we try to be very close in with our opponent. The twist punch is for a distance a little bit farther out, so we dont' use it. We use an upturned fist/uppercut to target the jaw, and if we go lower than the solar plexus we use a punch that would look very similar to the twist punch, but doesn't have quite as much twist to it.

There are some biomechanical things that support that a vertical and 3/4 punch without the twist are structurally stronger, but I think that even in that case a person is not going to reach the stress limits that it comes into play if they have trained their punch properly.

 

[blindsage]

Here's another style of vertical punch to consider

 

[chinto]

ok, both punches are legitimate. I use the okinawan twisting punch and vertical punch both. both are taught and used. often the vertical punch is used close in and punching high. I do not think either is better or worse if preformed properly and used appropriately.

 

[Balrog]

Most people don't punch properly with the twisting punch. If taught wrong, the elbow will turn with the punch and point out at the point of contact.
If the body mechanics are trained and strengthened properly, it is a devastating strike.

Agreed. You should feel your arm rub against your body as it extends. If you don't "get the rub", then your elbow is out and you are basically flapping your wings like a chicken.

 

[seasoned]

I feel both twisting and vertical have proven to be very effective. I teach from chamber to full extension that we transition through 3 punches. As the fist moves towards the target it moves from under cut to vertical to twisting.
At the end of the punch with the structure locked down and elbow in, it resembles more of a battering ram then a "punch".

A full twist with palm down closed fist will have a tendency of turning the elbow out which breaks the link through the arm and into the shoulder. I do advocate, not a full twist, but just shy of it, considering the elbow position.

 

[Buka]

I've been punched more than anyone I know. Not proud of that, but I competed for over twenty years, been sparring forever, and I was a cop. I seem to have perfected blocking with my face.

I've been hit with both, a whole bootload of times. Can't say I could ever tell the difference. I'm sure one is better than the other, but from my point of view, getting the punch there is the real meat and potatoes.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In Chinese MA, the horizontal punch is called Yang punch and the vertical punch is called Yin punch. You start with horizontal punch and gradually convert all your punches into vertical punches. The reason is your opponent may take advantage on your locked elbow in your horizontal punch.

In the following clip, you can see a beginner level form Tan Tui, all punches are converted into vertical punches.

If your opponent applies "cracking" on your elbow joint, the vertical punch is bad enough, the horizontal punch will be even worse.

http://imageshack.us/a/img691/1032/cracking.jpg

 

[Zero]

Genuine quesiton: who here actually uses, or has used, a twisting punch in tournaments or "real life"? Also, what is the suppossed advantage or if not advantage, different attributes of such a punch that would make you want to apply this over a standard vertical punch or boxer's punch? I ask as I have competed in striking tournaments (prior to that, judo) for close to 15 years and have never sought to apply this punch. I have also had genuine SD situations where I have never punched this way (I guess as this was never a focus, so not instinctive). My karate style is goju ryu so obviously we use this for kata but my old sensei who trained me for tournaments never used this type (Ok, I will check with him if "never" is correct before the hearsay), either as a competitor (he has several national titles and has fought internationally) or in his job as a LEO.

When I fight or spar it is generally with a boxer's punch or, as per my sensei, with the fist vertical, in line with the wrist and the forearm all aligned - with the fist on slight downward angle (so striking surface is the two big knuckles and wrist is locked into position). A punch that is very stable and safe for the wrist and allows the energy to travel in completely straight line - I am sure all the old hacks on here know this anyway! Sometimes you can, as you strike, move the fist - as it hits - fully into alignment. This is for when contacting soft parts of face for deliberate cutting and skin tears to result in blooding.


I will ask my sensei next week, as have never bothered focusing on the twist/torque punch and so never asked as thought it best left only in the kata (yeah, there you have it!!), but any input in the interim would be appreicated. I have never seen any of the top/pro fighters with karate backgrounds use this punch either such as in Pride or UFC, I dont think I recall seeing this kind of execution even at the All Japan Nationals in kumite. So again, I genuinely ask, what is the benefit of this punch - why would you ever execute this over a standard punch? Thanks