Twisting your punch

[K-man]

Not sure if Alex did this in the seminar you attended but Kevin Secours likes to punch you with just arm and elbow, arm elbow and shoulder and then all 3 with the wave and the difference is mind boggling. Couple all of that while learning to "drop energy" and it takes little space or effort to dismantle an adversary.

Luke Holloway (aussie) is another combatives guru I hold in high regard and have had the pleasure of meeting. His Silat wave striking is punishing to say the least

The same power generation is in Okinawan karate. Same hips, same drop, same relaxed arm. You can see it in some of the old karate movies.

I'll check out Luke. I might get to train with Kevin next year, I'm hoping.
:asian:

 

[SENC-33]

The same power generation is in Okinawan karate. Same hips, same drop, same relaxed arm. You can see it in some of the old karate movies.

I'll check out Luke. I might get to train with Kevin next year, I'm hoping.
:asian:

If you get the chance to train with Kevin soak it in like a sponge.....He is the best Systema instructor out there IMO

 

[Touch Of Death]

No argument here, all good points In above posts. As we all know within different lineage there are broader interpretations on many fronts.The one thing I find that holds true is the fact that everyone strives to get the maximum power out of the shortest distance whether striking throwing or grappling.

That isn't true. I don't strive for maximum power. I am of the maximum speed lineage, myself.

 

[donald1]

I will stop short of referring to this as an "advanced technique" but twisting or "articulating" as I like to call it is definitely a feel process.

By its self no but through different combinations it can be used in different ways and for different situations

 

[SENC-33]

By its self no but through different combinations it can be used in different ways and for different situations

It is the "most effective" when you are hitting a precise area targeted at a pressure point or large nerve area. I also like to add downward articulation when I am trying to sink energy "downward" into vital areas.

 

[Jean Marais]

I mentioned earlier how important the rest of the body is in a pinch and that if twisting effects the rest of the body posture and movement, then this must be scrutinized. I got the chance to glance into my Christmas present before my wife packed it away (a new book called "Parting the Clouds") specifically on the chapter on punch rotation. Mentioned are some facts and calcs also in this thread, but something he said leads me to my new hypothesis:

the twist is there to promote the desired straight travel (elbows in) form.

What do you think?

 

[seasoned]

I mentioned earlier how important the rest of the body is in a pinch and that if twisting effects the rest of the body posture and movement, then this must be scrutinized. I got the chance to glance into my Christmas present before my wife packed it away (a new book called "Parting the Clouds") specifically on the chapter on punch rotation. Mentioned are some facts and calcs also in this thread, but something he said leads me to my new hypothesis:

the twist is there to promote the desired straight travel (elbows in) form.

What do you think?

Also if I may ad to a very good point you make, elbow in while fist twists in, locks that battering ram of a punch down, to deliver much force.
Not every strike is delivered like this, but every technique will have an ever so light involvement with the wrist, to augment the final contact.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Let's talk about twist fails. Don't wing the elbow, or you will hurt yourself.

 

[seasoned]

Let's talk about twist fails. Don't wing the elbow, or you will hurt yourself.

Great point!
But it could be rephrased as in "lets talk about Sensei fails" (slide your elbow along your torso).

 

[SENC-33]

Also if I may ad to a very good point you make, elbow in while fist twists in, locks that battering ram of a punch down, to deliver much force.
Not every strike is delivered like this, but every technique will have an ever so light involvement with the wrist, to augment the final contact.

I am a huge advocate of articulating your wrist. It can make a world of difference in certain instances......

My first passion was Kuysho many years ago and the wrist articulation used to penetrate nerves and pressure points is still a point of emphasis in my striking today. In fact I probably couldn't work that out even if I tried. Combined with waveforms and ballistic striking techniques I hit harder, more effectively and with less effort than I did 20+ years ago.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

OK, so I take it that no one really actually employs the karate twisting punch in real life or tournament/full contact.

I have utilized the rotating punch in both sparring, tournament (WTF), and real world application. I have also utilized other types of punches. I have heard all manner of explanations for the rotating punch, right down to the idea that the twisting motion "tears flesh." I don't buy into any of them; the rotating punch is simply another punch.

The only personal observation is that when striking, ideally you should remain relaxed, only tightening up at the moment of impact. I see the rotation as simply a horizontal punch with the tightening at the end of the motion. When taken as a whole, with hip rotation, etc., it simply is the tail end of a larger movement. Correct punching is not just arm movement. The point of impact is the culmination of the transferrance of energy from the body through the arm and finally into the hand.

The rotating punch is a part of taekwondo and some karate ryu, and is taught from day one in TKD studios, but it is certainly not the only punching method, and is not the only punching method in taekwondo either, which also utilizes vertical fist strikes in as well. I suspect that the various methods of throwing a punch are known to pretty much every culture that has ever experimented with punching.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Great point!
But it could be rephrased as in "lets talk about Sensei fails" (slide your elbow along your torso).

They don't do it right, half the time, either. >_<

 

[Touch Of Death]

This is such a complex motion and application, I wonder why we teach small women to defend with it.
Sean

 

[seasoned]

In its original application, the punch, I generally have them focused towards softer targets, throat and groIn.
But as you know it's the motion that teaches so much more technique, that opens doors up to so many other moves. gotta love it....

 

[K-man]

I don't like the twist punch at all. In fact I wonder if it came from the time of open hand techniques before karate went into the schools and the open hand techniques became closed hand techniques. If you look at nukite then you can understand as you strike certain targets the hand needs to turn. Fast forward to closing the hands and voila ... the twisting punch.

Just a thought.
:asian:

 

[punisher73]

This is such a complex motion and application, I wonder why we teach small women to defend with it.
Sean

Some food for thought. In PPCT (A brandname of police defensive tactics), they only teach you to use the vertical punch as it's main punch. If you look at "how" they select their techniques, this would be one of the reasons. The techniques are chosen to be the simplest to learn with the least amount of practice to get the basic motion down. As I show new people and explain it to them, if the attacker moves in while throwing a vertical punch, no worries because my body weapon is already formed and ready for impact. But, if I am trying to use the twisting punch and the attacker moves in and I don't have the training etc. and it is in the process of twisting, I can easily injure the wrist. The vertical punch takes out some of the distancing issues for newbies.

 

[punisher73]

I don't like the twist punch at all. In fact I wonder if it came from the time of open hand techniques before karate went into the schools and the open hand techniques became closed hand techniques. If you look at nukite then you can understand as you strike certain targets the hand needs to turn. Fast forward to closing the hands and voila ... the twisting punch.

Just a thought.
:asian:

Probably some truth to this idea. If you look at the Sanchin kata of Uechi-Ryu and compare it to the Sanchin kata of Goju-Ryu, we know that the open hands were changed into the closed hands and it follows the same arm articulation for the strike for the nukite vs. horizontal punch.

I have also seen the idea presented in the chinese arts that the "twisting punch" was a conceptual idea to train 3 punches in one and their proper distances. As the fist leaves the body the fist is upturned for an uppercut in close to the attacker. The fist then starts to rotate slightly out and goes into a vertical punch for middle distance and then continues on into the horizontal phase for it's longest distance of the punch.

The other aspect to look at in this punch is targeting. In styles like Goju-Ryu that utilize the full twist and palm down on impact with this punch, they target the pressure point located just below the pectoral in line with the nipple, and this punch fits nicely into that spot due to the horizontal orientation of the rib. Other styles, that say that they originally used the 3/4 twist or diamond punch usually target the solar plexus as the main target, which that configuration works best. In some styles like Shorin-Ryu (Chotoku-Kyan's lineage), they use a "rising punch" to target the face and that was a vertical punch.

When things got changed up to teach large groups of school children, many of these punches ALL got changed into a twisting horiztonal punch that remains parrallel to the ground and the shoulders squared. Which when we look at, we should immediately realize has no foundation in application because there is no target that the punch fits into nicely without changing height/angle or the degree the fist is rotated.

 

[K-man]

The other aspect to look at in this punch is targeting. In styles like Goju-Ryu that utilize the full twist and palm down on impact with this punch, they target the pressure point located just below the pectoral in line with the nipple, and this punch fits nicely into that spot due to the horizontal orientation of the rib. Other styles, that say that they originally used the 3/4 twist or diamond punch usually target the solar plexus as the main target, which that configuration works best. In some styles like Shorin-Ryu (Chotoku-Kyan's lineage), they use a "rising punch" to target the face and that was a vertical punch.

When things got changed up to teach large groups of school children, many of these punches ALL got changed into a twisting horiztonal punch that remains parrallel to the ground and the shoulders squared. Which when we look at, we should immediately realize has no foundation in application because there is no target that the punch fits into nicely without changing height/angle or the degree the fist is rotated.

I'm not sure that your information on the full twist is totally accurate. In Okinawa at the Jundokan, Goju Ryu, it was explained that the fist was 'natural', that is a normal alignment about half way between vertical and horizontal. Traditionally Uechi Ryu had virtually no closed fist punches at all and Isshin Ryu have the vertical fist. Shorin Ryu has conflicting information ranging from the near vertical to the full twist depending on where you read about it.
:asian:

 

[skribs]

In my TKD class, we practice traditional TKD punches and we do punches similar to boxing/MT.

When doing TKD punches, the straight punch (vertical punch to nose or underhand punch to gut) is good for short range, while the twisting punch is better for medium range. I think it flows better with hip movement than a straight punch.
When doing the boxing motions, the little bit of twist brings up your shoulder, which protects your face but exposes your armpit. I also feel you get more power (maybe slightly less control) this way.

When sparring in TKD, I find punches are used mainly at short range, so I don't have the range to get twist off.

 

[Touch Of Death]

In my TKD class, we practice traditional TKD punches and we do punches similar to boxing/MT.

When doing TKD punches, the straight punch (vertical punch to nose or underhand punch to gut) is good for short range, while the twisting punch is better for medium range. I think it flows better with hip movement than a straight punch.
When doing the boxing motions, the little bit of twist brings up your shoulder, which protects your face but exposes your armpit. I also feel you get more power (maybe slightly less control) this way.

When sparring in TKD, I find punches are used mainly at short range, so I don't have the range to get twist off.

Then move in.