Training methodologies of Karate

[K-man]

It would be interesting to note why there are differences between Sanchin kata between the two though. I've never really looked into that. I've 'seen' Goju's version of Sanchin and I 'do' Uechi's version. That's piqued my curiosity. I have a book on Sanchin, mostly Goju version. I'll have to take a look at it again (been many years since I've read it).

As dancingalone said, the open hand version changed to a closed fist version in Goju. It was actually Kanryo Higaonna, who had the original and slightly different version , who made that change. Gogen Yamaguchi taught a different version again. The Higaonna version was obviously the first of the Goju ones. It contained the steps forward, a turn, and steps back before another 180 deg turn back to the front. Miyagi took out the turns completely. Yamaguchi put the turns back in but reduced the steps to the rear. Higaonna's version and the version practised in Okinawa today, had a softer style of breathing than you see in Uechi Ryu and Yamaguchi's is like that one too.

As to why? We can only speculate but I doubt we will ever really know. Perhaps it's to do with other aspects of the training that Sanchin reflects. (I think it was Uechi who first made the statement that Sanchin embodied all the training of Pangai-noon. Later the same statement had been adopted by Goju, with good reason.) Uechi Ryu version is more crouching, at least in the earlier versions I have seen, while the Goju versions are all more upright. Uechi Ryu tests by beating the ...t out of you, as does Yamaguchi's while the Okinawan Goju versions are tested for body structure. Also the Uechi version has the two Mawashi Uke to the side while the Goju versions are north/south.

Lots of potential for research if you have the time. I'll look forward to reading your book.

Higaonna Morio stated in a Dragon Times article that Miyagi Sensei made the change in Sanchin from nukite strikes to a closed fist among other alterations. Presumably the Uechi-ryu version is less changed from what Higaonna Kanryu taught.

Hard to tell really. It is said that Sanchin is part of the white crane system. Interesting that the part Higaonna and Uechi brought back as Sanchin is so similar. To me it suggests that they either trained in related schools in China even though they were there about 20 years apart or Uechi had a connection with Higaonna when he returned to Okinawa. The closed fist in Goju coincides with the introduction of karate into the schools.
:asian:

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Pulled the book out to look at it;

The Way of Sanchin Kata, The Application of Power
Kris Wilder
YMAA Publication Center
ISBN-13:978-1-594439-084-5

http://www.amazon.com/The-Way-Sanchin-Kata-Application/dp/1594390843



The picture on the front must be Goju version as it differs from the Pangainoon/Uechi version taught to me. In the version I learned, the front foot would be turned in a bit more, 45 degree angle. And the elbows would be tucked more into the rib cage with the forearms/hand more in front of the torso.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Uechi Ryu tests by beating the ...t out of you, as does Yamaguchi's while the Okinawan Goju versions are tested for body structure.

This is how I trained in Pangainoon.

 

[K-man]

Pulled the book out to look at it;

The Way of Sanchin Kata, The Application of Power
Kris Wilder
YMAA Publication Center
ISBN-13:978-1-594439-084-5

http://www.amazon.com/The-Way-Sanchin-Kata-Application/dp/1594390843

View attachment 18594

The picture on the front must be Goju version as it differs from the Pangainoon/Uechi version taught to me. In the version I learned, the front foot would be turned in a bit more, 45 degree angle. And the elbows would be tucked more into the rib cage with the forearms/hand more in front of the torso.

Interesting observations. I would also have the elbow more tucked but I teach more to pull the tricep in tight to the pec rather than a specific position related to the ribs.

As for the foot. Too much turn, and 45 degrees is getting up there, and you are staring to put pressure on the hip. 45 degrees was what we were taught in the early days (Japanese Goju) too but the Okinawans have much less turn. In fact the more advanced guys are just like Wilder is in the photo. If you look closely, the outside of his feet are parallel which gives the toes a slight inward angle. If you drop your centre your knees still move in so the groin is protected and when you grip with your toes you have the same strong base. The big advantage comes when you move as you don't have to 'unlock'.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

This is how I trained in Pangainoon.

That's what I meant!

 

[TaiChiTJ]

Interesting Bunkai at slow speed from Naihanchi kata. The same instructor has a flow drill developed from the form.

 

[K-man]

Interesting Bunkai at slow speed from Naihanchi kata. The same instructor has a flow drill developed from the form.

Exactly what we do with Goju kata bunkai.

 

[mook jong man]

Interesting Bunkai at slow speed from Naihanchi kata. The same instructor has a flow drill developed from the form.

I think it looks a little bit similar to the Wing Chun lap sau drill.

[video=youtube_share;YWjsr7Yr5tY]http://youtu.be/YWjsr7Yr5tY[/video]

 

[K-man]

I think it looks a little bit similar to the Wing Chun lap sau drill.

We train with a drill like Chi Sau every session. Like in the video we are basically aiming at using one arm to tie up two and release your other hand to control or strike. We actually go beyond that, using Chi Sau as a means of entry into the kata bunkai. Once there we work on what we call predictive response. They didn't call it that in the Naihanchi video but it is exactly the same principle. So although the flow might look similar it is really quite different as in the Chi Sau drill there is nothing determining what the attacker is doing. In the bunkai the attacker can only respond, and in a predictable way.
:asian:

 

[mook jong man]

We train with a drill like Chi Sau every session. Like in the video we are basically aiming at using one arm to tie up two and release your other hand to control or strike. We actually go beyond that, using Chi Sau as a means of entry into the kata bunkai. Once there we work on what we call predictive response. They didn't call it that in the Naihanchi video but it is exactly the same principle. So although the flow might look similar it is really quite different as in the Chi Sau drill there is nothing determining what the attacker is doing. In the bunkai the attacker can only respond, and in a predictable way.
:asian:

Well lap sau is somewhat predictable , in that we know that the other Wing Chun person will punch and when blocked immediately try and rip our arm down and punch with the other hand.
That's at the basic level , but after that it becomes very free form with random change overs , moving in and out of punching range , transitioning back and forth between chain punching to chi sau to trapping and back to lap sau again.

So are you saying that the other Karate person has to stick to a type of script and follow a set routine?
Is that correct.

 

[K-man]

Well lap sau is somewhat predictable , in that we know that the other Wing Chun person will punch and when blocked immediately try and rip our arm down and punch with the other hand.
That's at the basic level , but after that it becomes very free form with random change overs , moving in and out of punching range , transitioning back and forth between chain punching to chi sau to trapping and back to lap sau again.

So are you saying that the other Karate person has to stick to a type of script and follow a set routine?
Is that correct.

Not at all. The partner needs no training. Sometimes we might enter from a predetermined attack but most times from out Kakie or Tegumi which is similar to Chi Sau. For example your opponent might throw a punch or just shape up to throw a punch. The attack doesn't matter. Once you engage and trap or deflect you are always in a familiar situation as in you practise those moves thousands of times just like in Chi Sau. From there you take whatever opportunity there is to enter the kata bunkai where every technique is potentially a finishing move. So for example you might have a strike to the throat. If your partner manages to block the strike he has given you his arm. If he doesn't block you hit him again. If he has given you his arm you move to the next part of the kata and hit him again, and so on. At all times your opponent only has one means of defence available as the previous move has left you controlling one of his arms. You always know in advance what he is going to do.

This works well with someone training at the same level as they can work with you knowing what is going to happen next. That way we can work our way totally through a kata or even shift from one kata to another. Against an untrained partner it's a little different. Potentially the first strike would take them out. You just keep hitting them gently until they work out how to protect themselves, then you move on to the next part of the bunkai when they give you their arm.

You mentioned moving in and out of range. Basically we just move in and engage. Once we are in we don't move out until it's over. So while range is important it really is close range, closer range or still closer again. Kicks become knee strikes, punches become elbows.
:asian:

 

[mook jong man]

Not at all. The partner needs no training. Sometimes we might enter from a predetermined attack but most times from out Kakie or Tegumi which is similar to Chi Sau. For example your opponent might throw a punch or just shape up to throw a punch. The attack doesn't matter. Once you engage and trap or deflect you are always in a familiar situation as in you practise those moves thousands of times just like in Chi Sau. From there you take whatever opportunity there is to enter the kata bunkai where every technique is potentially a finishing move. So for example you might have a strike to the throat. If your partner manages to block the strike he has given you his arm. If he doesn't block you hit him again. If he has given you his arm you move to the next part of the kata and hit him again, and so on. At all times your opponent only has one means of defence available as the previous move has left you controlling one of his arms. You always know in advance what he is going to do.

This works well with someone training at the same level as they can work with you knowing what is going to happen next. That way we can work our way totally through a kata or even shift from one kata to another. Against an untrained partner it's a little different. Potentially the first strike would take them out. You just keep hitting them gently until they work out how to protect themselves, then you move on to the next part of the bunkai when they give you their arm.

You mentioned moving in and out of range. Basically we just move in and engage. Once we are in we don't move out until it's over. So while range is important it really is close range, closer range or still closer again. Kicks become knee strikes, punches become elbows.
:asian:

Ok I get ya.

Yeah we some times move in and out of range , but only after the person has been finished , with the close range chi sau techniques like neck pulling hand , elbows or knees.
But with fast chi sau sparring "finishes" can happen on both sides in a very short amount of time , once you know you've been got you just go back to rolling and get ready to attack or defend again.

Other times we may just work from in contact range.
Moving from punching range , chi sau range and then to close range trapping techniques and back out again is just a method we use to work on both sets of reflexes in the one session . The vision reflexes before contact , and then the tactile reflexes once contact has been made.

Kman , in the Wing Chun chi sau we have a concept called "forward force" or sometimes known as "springy force" basically it's a soft subtle force directed from the shoulders and elbows.
Essentially it make our arms spring loaded , it is always "on" , so if there is no counter force from the opponent our arms will automatically strike forward to the center.
It means that our brain doesn't have to waste valuable seconds trying to find gaps , our arms will find them on their own.

Do you have this concept in your version of chi sau?

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Interesting observations. I would also have the elbow more tucked but I teach more to pull the tricep in tight to the pec rather than a specific position related to the ribs.

I think we're doing it the same way and just describing it a bit differently. And I agree with you about the 45 degree angle. I'll have to see if that is mentioned in the referenced book at all.

 

[K-man]

I think we're doing it the same way and just describing it a bit differently. And I agree with you about the 45 degree angle. I'll have to see if that is mentioned in the referenced book at all.

Mmm. I didn't come across the foot position until I was in Okinawa. It was explained to us but the interesting part was watching the top guys move. Only a couple didn't turn in at all but even those who did, the angle was only small.

A couple of examples:
The Japanese Goju, now far less turn than I was taught originally.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=otrY8Zx1gtY&desktop_uri=/watch?v=otrY8Zx1gtY

Morio Higaonna, Okinawan, but performed some time ago.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kybxNOlnl20&desktop_uri=/watch?v=kybxNOlnl20

and Miyazato at the Jundokan. Very little perceptible movement to straighten before they step.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pfa5lD1c5Yk&desktop_uri=/watch?v=pfa5lD1c5Yk

Overall I don't think it matters as long as you can grip the floor for stability and you can protect the groin.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

Moving from punching range , chi sau range and then to close range trapping techniques and back out again is just a method we use to work on both sets of reflexes in the one session . The vision reflexes before contact , and then the tactile reflexes once contact has been made.

Kman , in the Wing Chun chi sau we have a concept called "forward force" or sometimes known as "springy force" basically it's a soft subtle force directed from the shoulders and elbows.
Essentially it make our arms spring loaded , it is always "on" , so if there is no counter force from the opponent our arms will automatically strike forward to the center.
It means that our brain doesn't have to waste valuable seconds trying to find gaps , our arms will find them on their own.

Do you have this concept in your version of chi sau?

My version of 'Chi Sau' is not really Chi Sau. It is a type of training I developed having seen Chi Sau and recognising how it contained a lot of the movements we had in our Kakie. If you saw me doing it you would recognise in a flash that I was not doing proper Chi Sau but it is the same sticky hands concept. One of my guys came to me from WC and basically he came because he felt comfortable in the way we were training from this particular exercise. So, I am familiar with what you are calling 'spring force'. I felt it when training with him. I have also felt it from a Tai Chi guy. In both cases they exerted quite a bit of pressure from my perspective, almost as if they where trying to maintaining centre line, if that makes sense. In what I do my forward hand is not as far from the body, my elbow is close to the ribs, and I am much softer. If I push against their arm I feel resistance, they press against mine and I am no longer there as basically I am blending with their movement.

As to the part relating to the reflexes. Same exactly. I call it a sensitivity drill. Outside of contact range I am aware of movement that precedes an attack but once inside I am relying 100% on 'feel'. We often practise with eyes closed, sometimes just with one hand.

If I had to pick the most valuable training tool available to martial artists, I would say 'Sticky Hands'.
:asian:

 

[Kong Soo Do]

A few examples of Uechi Ryu/Pangainoon Sanchin kata:

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Here is an example of bunkai from Abernethy Sensei:

 

[K-man]

A few examples of Uechi Ryu/Pangainoon Sanchin kata:

Yes, there's a lot in common with Goju and Uechi Ryu. Even the names ... Pangainoon (half hard half soft) and Goju (hard and soft) suggest that they will contain similar concepts.

Here is an example of bunkai from Abernethy Sensei:

I have a lot of Iain's material but haven't had the pleasure of training with him yet. He was in Australia a few years ago but from memory I was overseas at that time. He is one of the people who opened my eyes to kata application. The first was George Dillman. I borrowed a friend's copy of Dillman's Naihanchi DVD and was totally blown away. When I started looking around and found Iain Abernethy. Finally I found Masaji Taira and I've been privileged to have trained with him quite a bit since.

I tried to find some video of Dillman's bunkai without success.

Here is the training we are now practising;

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FqTgZ9y3za0&desktop_uri=/watch?v=FqTgZ9y3za0

:asian:

 

[mook jong man]

My version of 'Chi Sau' is not really Chi Sau. It is a type of training I developed having seen Chi Sau and recognising how it contained a lot of the movements we had in our Kakie. If you saw me doing it you would recognise in a flash that I was not doing proper Chi Sau but it is the same sticky hands concept. One of my guys came to me from WC and basically he came because he felt comfortable in the way we were training from this particular exercise. So, I am familiar with what you are calling 'spring force'. I felt it when training with him. I have also felt it from a Tai Chi guy. In both cases they exerted quite a bit of pressure from my perspective, almost as if they where trying to maintaining centre line, if that makes sense. In what I do my forward hand is not as far from the body, my elbow is close to the ribs, and I am much softer. If I push against their arm I feel resistance, they press against mine and I am no longer there as basically I am blending with their movement.

As to the part relating to the reflexes. Same exactly. I call it a sensitivity drill. Outside of contact range I am aware of movement that precedes an attack but once inside I am relying 100% on 'feel'. We often practise with eyes closed, sometimes just with one hand.

If I had to pick the most valuable training tool available to martial artists, I would say 'Sticky Hands'.
:asian:

Without derailing the thread any further and turning it into a Wing Chun thread.
The people you trained with probably were exerting too much force in the form of strength , people think that " forward force " is a muscular thing , which it isn't
It has to be a very slight flowing pressure , it was explained to me a by one of my seniors that it is the same amount of pressure that you use when leaning your elbow on a table , or sticking your finger into someones chest.

Too much force is counter productive and tenses up the muscles , when the muscles are tense in chi sau they cannot change direction fast enough to deal with the movements of the opponent , the tense muscles also provide a direct conduit to your body for the manipulation of your balance.
Nothing a Wing Chun guy likes better than somebody with tense arms.

So your definitely on the right track staying soft and relaxed in your chi sau K-man.
An exercise to check if your students are staying relaxed and using proper "springy force" is when you are in contact with their arms , give them a a quick random jolt through your arms.
If their structure is nice and relaxed with proper "forward force " they should be able to absorb quite a bit of that energy down through their arms and into their stance.
If they are using tense , muscular force , they will be shoved back some distance.

Ok that's enough from me gentlemen , back to the Karate.

 

[geezer]

...One of my guys came to me from WC and basically he came because he felt comfortable in the way we were training from this particular exercise. So, I am familiar with what you are calling 'spring force'. I felt it when training with him. I have also felt it from a Tai Chi guy. In both cases they exerted quite a bit of pressure from my perspective, almost as if they where trying to maintaining centre line, if that makes sense...
:asian:

If you cross bridges with some more WC/VT/VT people you will find that different groups vary greatly on how much pressure they exert. Some are very soft and yielding, and they never use force to take the centerline, rather they flow with and/or around you like water to occupy the center.

What is characteristic of good WC is that, no matter how soft and subtle, there is constant forward spring, from arms, to body, to stance and steps. There should be no retracting or withdrawing of energy. The forward flow of energy should be consistent and relentless like water flowing downhill. Your hands are always seeking an opening or "hole" to flow through and strike center. Our objective is not to stick and "chase hands," but to flow through any hole in our opponent's defenses and to strike.

By contrast in then the kakie clip below I see a lot of pulling or withdrawing energy. and sticking for it's own sake. It is indeed similar to WC chi-sau on many levels, but I sense that it's overall objective is quite different.