Training methodologies of Karate

[Dirty Dog]

Don't run a school with contract students. I offer personal training and instructor seminars to people who seek my experience. I come from a self defense background where the large majority of respected individuals in my profession agree with my line of thinking. If it offends you because I don't have 10,000 post here my apologies.

It's always entertaining when people post unsupported grandiose claims and expect us to just blindly accept them as fact. Come on. Anyone with "countless" students (and that's just the ones from other schools) musty be incredibly well know. Why so reluctant to provide examples of your glory?

 

[K-man]

K-Man

Most of the professionals I have worked with indeed have TMA backgrounds. Now as seasoned self defense specialist Kata is simply not apart of the equation and that is for good reason. I'm sorry but it's the truth and by no means have I been trying to disrespect anyone that believes in it. You wont see any respected self defense instructor teaching flying kicks either. The tactical side of self defense training comes from any of a number of traditional martial arts sans the fluff that is simply impractical.

As a teacher of reality based self defence I can tell you that kata has a huge place in self defence ... if you understand it. A computer is useless to a monkey. That doesn't mean a computer is useless. Knowing how to fly an aircraft is not going to make me a fighter pilot as I have not the training to use it that way. That doesn't make the aircraft useless in combat. Knowing the movement of kata alone is totally useless for self defence. That doesn't make it "fluff". I have a policy. If anyone can show me something I teach that can't be used for self defence I'll throw it out. I already did that when I swapped from sport based karate to Okinawan karate a few years back.

As Kong Soo Do said, it all depends on how it is taught. Okinawan karate has no high kicks. In fact Krav teaches higher kicks than Goju. So we don't have flying kicks either. Does that mean anything? In Krav we teach 360 defence. In karate I have exactly the same defence straight out of kata. Amazing? Not really. All good systems are based on instinctive response so we see similarities between Krav, Karate, Systema, Muay Thai and Aikido. Aikido? I bet you reckon that is useless for SD also.
:asian:

 

[ballen0351]

Hmmmm I've used my Karate quite a few times in the last 14 years of police work. I must have been doing wrong since according to all these experts kata doesn't work

 

[RTKDCMB]

For many, and I'd say most schools, kata is a cookie-cutter, class filler that an instructor uses to get a student to the next level. It has little depth and very little practical application.

I'd like to see some statistics or a study to support your claim that most schools use kata as a cookie-cutter class filler.

 

[SteveNC]

Guys there is really no need to keep piling on and being so "defensive". You believe in your kata I get the message. As a SD tool I think it's a complete waste of time to be polite as I can about it but I certainly wont refer to any of you as "ignorant" or "uninformed" Apparently in your circle it's a different story (Which is great) but in mine I see the failures of how karate and many other TMA's are being taught to people. Those teaching and promoting SD are performing a disservice to the folks (around my area) paying them so the only thing that I can come up with after the series of internet lectures I have gotten from a few of you is that these teachers must be "ignorant" and "uninformed" like myself.

I guess I shouldn't complain because the karate people are sending business my way in droves. Some of you obviously don't like and/or agree with my reasons why but that's to be expected for sure.

 

[alexis101]

Lots of thoughts about karate opcorn:
Such a great community of martial artists :highfive:

 

[Flying Crane]

looks to me like steveNC is being offered an education. But will he accept it...?

 

[K-man]

Guys there is really no need to keep piling on and being so "defensive". You believe in your kata I get the message. As a SD tool I think it's a complete waste of time to be polite as I can about it but I certainly wont refer to any of you as "ignorant" or "uninformed" Apparently in your circle it's a different story (Which is great) but in mine I see the failures of how karate and many other TMA's are being taught to people. Those teaching and promoting SD are performing a disservice to the folks (around my area) paying them so the only thing that I can come up with after the series of internet lectures I have gotten from a few of you is that these teachers must be "ignorant" and "uninformed" like myself.

I guess I shouldn't complain because the karate people are sending business my way in droves. Some of you obviously don't like and/or agree with my reasons why but that's to be expected for sure.

So you get our message but we are wrong because you think it is a waste of time. You just can't help yourself can you? "Complete waste of time" and "those teaching and promoting SD are performing a disservice".

When did you actually see kata being taught as a fighting system? I'm not talking about the pretty forms you see in competition, I'm talking about the close combat system that is very close to the Krav that you claim as one of your arts. We all see 'failures' in the way certain things are taught but most martial art is not taught as reality based self defence. Much of it is sport based and I would argue that sport is totally different to SD.

I have seen a lot of so-called self defence experts teaching low percentage stuff too. For all I know you could be one of them. All you have told us so far is "I am right and you are wrong". The only thing I have seen you post that is close to the truth is where you say "these teachers must be "ignorant" and "uninformed" like myself". Your words, not mine. I just said it was poor instruction.

As to "piling it on" and "being defensive". Please remind me, who came onto this thread and took a cheap shot at karate to establish his credentials?

Originally Posted by SteveNC

Nothing against Karate if you are looking for a connection to an ancient art that is no longer taught with any form of relevance to todays society, especially when they market themselves as self defense schools. Karate can be fun and rewarding but the owners of these schools often serve up a bogus mission statement to get people to sign that contract.

and

Originally Posted by SteveNC

Perhaps I should do a better job of explaining my thoughts on Karate, self defense and THE WAY THEY ARE TAUGHT where I live. I would venture to guess that 8 out of every 10 people that comes to me for self defense advice or training came from a Karate or TKD establishment that harped about teaching them self defense. Some of these folks have "black belts" and when I asses their skill level from a tactical standpoint it is downright embarrassing to say the least not to mention the fact that most have little to no knowledge of self awareness and avoidance education (The most important aspects of self defense). They spend countless hours doing Kata and board breaking which in my humble opinion is a complete and utter waste of time from a self defense POV. The reason these folks come to me is in their own words "To learn self defense" because they were sold a bill of goods.


Again I have nothing against Karate "The Art" and I have all the admiration in the world for anybody that practices Karate or any TMA to better themselves and their lives but people who sign a contract expecting to learn self defense are more often than not left disappointed. I am fine with people disagreeing with me and fully expect it but NO I am not disrespecting Karate.

Mmm! Seems it was you! Good job it's fine for people to disagree with you.

 

[SteveNC]

K-Man

Not once have I said "I was right" and anybody else "HERE" was wrong about anything. I stated my opinions on how karate and other TMA's "IN MY AREA" are taught poorly while they claim to teach people self defense. I have seen the results so I'm not sure what is so hard for you to understand about that. I'm sure you are aware that I'm not the only self defense advocate in the world who thinks TMA's and their use of kata are a complete waste of time? This is something you are aware of I assume? As far as there being self defense experts teaching low percentage stuff I couldn't agree more. In fact some of the stuff I see is downright embarrassing in my opinion. Most of my clients need to be taught self defense for their jobs and quickly and I provide that to them. They don't have time to play around with kata dances as some of them call it (Their words). The cheap shots at karate as you call them come directly from the people coming to me FROM KARATE. I don't see it as a cheap shot at all

 

[Zero]

Don't run a school with contract students. I offer personal training and instructor seminars to people who seek my experience. I come from a self defense background where the large majority of respected individuals in my profession agree with my line of thinking. If it offends you because I don't have 10,000 post here my apologies.

SteveNC, can you let us know what this self defense background of yours is?

What exactly is it that you teach now and have studied previously, is it RBSD or something else? From what foundations did you commence your self defense teachings? It would be helpful to know what your background is and where you have obtained your experience from so your comments can be put in context.

Regards

 

[Zero]

K-Man

Most of the professionals I have worked with indeed have TMA backgrounds. Now as seasoned self defense specialist Kata is simply not apart of the equation and that is for good reason. I'm sorry but it's the truth and by no means have I been trying to disrespect anyone that believes in it. You wont see any respected self defense instructor teaching flying kicks either. The tactical side of self defense training comes from any of a number of traditional martial arts sans the fluff that is simply impractical.

The thing is that kata contains so much that is not "fluff" as you put it. You do appear to have a dangerously closed mind, which may well in turn limit your own and your students' capabilities in certain SD or "real world" scenarios.

I am not the greatest proponent of kata myself, I have always focused on kumite and contact tournaments and never been drawn to kata on a competivie basis; likewise, outside of competition, I do not think kata is necessarily the only means of learning and maintaining and honing the repository of skills and techniques karate or other styles contain. That said, I do recognise the value of kata and that it can be utilised for just this (and feel I have some understanding of its true intent and application, it is more than just doing mindless "sequences" of moves and is very much appropriate at teaching the skills for multiple attackers). I have also trained with several practitioners that have competed at the highest levels, these are great fighters, and are also highly experience LEOs or involved in SD (one is a police officer and that has also worked in the cells and holding pens, the other has his own succesful SD business which trains bouncers, security guards) and they hold kata in high regard and practice kata to this day, these are skilled, formidable and intelligent individuals so I am not sure kata can just be rubbished as having no practical application...

 

[SteveNC]

SteveNC, can you let us know what this self defense background of yours is?

What exactly is it that you teach now and have studied previously, is it RBSD or something else? From what foundations did you commence your self defense teachings? It would be helpful to know what your background is and where you have obtained your experience from so your comments can be put in context.

Regards

I have been training for over 20 years (I am 43). The foundation for what I do started when I was in the marine corps (20 years). I gained a passion for combatives through my military occupation and the last 4 years of my career I was a LINE Instructor. I was heavily involved in different styles of Boxing, Judo, Krav Maga with other guys in the military so self defense has been apart of my everyday life for my entire adult life. Having been deployed much of that time I have been around quit a bit of violence. Obviously I don't come from a TMA background but I have been around scores of people who have been failed by TMA instructors. I'm not bashing karate just how it is taught within the context of self defense and apparently what I think is just normal banter is seen by some as highly offensive. Certainly didn't intend to rile people up

 

[K-man]

K-Man

Not once have I said "I was right" and anybody else "HERE" was wrong about anything. I stated my opinions on how karate and other TMA's "IN MY AREA" are taught poorly while they claim to teach people self defense. I have seen the results so I'm not sure what is so hard for you to understand about that.

I can live with that.

I'm sure you are aware that I'm not the only self defense advocate in the world who thinks TMA's and their use of kata are a complete waste of time? This is something you are aware of I assume?

Of course I am aware of that and what I have said is that kata without bunkai has no role in self defence. What you and many like you fail to understand is that kata are actual fighting systems designed solely for self defence. I agree with you that they are rarely taught that way but the fact that a student is not being taught how to use kata is not the fault of the kata, it is the fault of the instructor. I don't understand quantum physics. That doesn't make it any less real or relevant. You don't understand kata. Again that doesn't make it "fluff" as you described it. You can say anything you like about the lack of quality instruction in your area but don't attack the underlying martial art. I teach reality based martial art. I teach Krav and I teach Goju Karate. They are both practical fighting systems. Like you, I have picked the best of Systema to add to my teaching.

As far as there being self defense experts teaching low percentage stuff I couldn't agree more. In fact some of the stuff I see is downright embarrassing in my opinion. Most of my clients need to be taught self defense for their jobs and quickly and I provide that to them.

And if I had that brief I wouldn't be teaching them karate either because it takes longer to get to a level of proficiency. But I would question the effectiveness of any self defence instruction starting from scratch and taught in a short period. That is a discussion for another thread.

They don't have time to play around with kata dances as some of them call it (Their words).

They might be the words of others, but your repeating them makes the words yours. If you don't agree with them you wouldn't say them and from your earlier posts it is obvious that it is your sentiment.

The cheap shots at karate as you call them come directly from the people coming to me FROM KARATE. I don't see it as a cheap shot at all

Then why post it at all if you don't agree with it? They didn't join MT and say karate is "an ancient art that is no longer taught with any form of relevance to todays society". They didn't say "they spend countless hours doing Kata and board breaking which in my humble opinion is a complete and utter waste of time from a self defense POV". They are your words and your words alone.

There are threads where you can assert that training is less than optimal, some of us call them McDojos. That is a reflection of the teaching and management. That's fine, but in this case you are bagging something that you have not only never been taught but have obviously never seen. Karate without kata is not karate and if kata is not useful why was it passed down in families for generations as a jealously guarded secret?

 

[SteveNC]

K-Man

Fair enough. I know when to let something go and this is obviously one of those times. I'll know for the future where "not" to go

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I'd like to see some statistics or a study to support your claim that most schools use kata as a cookie-cutter class filler.

Sure. Most 'karate' (and by extension TKD) schools are sport focused these days. I don't think anyone would disagree with that? And the normal process in these types of schools are to learn a kata/form and advance to the next colored belt (or even Dan grade). There may be some variance between schools, but that is the general pattern. This would normally put a new form every two or three months give or take. It has to be cookie-cutter-one-size-fits-all as a couple of months is not enough time to really learn a kata/form. Now, let me state that yes, one can learn the movements rather quickly. That in no way, shape or form means they understand the movements beyond a peripheral block/punch/kick methodology. And for a sport school that is completely fine. They aren't looking for, nor do they need the information that is further contained in the kata/form. So a cookie-cutter kata/form fits in just fine. But it is a class filler in the same sense as learning a dance in a dance studio.

A simple test you may find interesting when visiting another school (or your own as I don't recall what type of school you attend), is to ask about various movements and their meaning. For example, in a karate or TKD school simply ask why they chamber the hands on the hip when doing various line drills. They certainly don't 'fight' that way (read sparring and competition), yet they train this way in line drills, step drills and kata/forms. You may get answers such as, 'that's just the way we do it' or 'we're chambering for another punch or whatever'. This let's you know the kata/form isn't being trained properly (from the perspective of SD or with it's original intent). Thus it is just a bunch of movements strung together to be learned in class to fill up training time and be 'traditional'.

This is why folks like SteveNC get a bad taste and misinformation/misconception about kata. This is why I use the term 'most' as most are sport and don't use/need principles in the form beyond the window dressing. As many of use know though, kata/forms provide a wealth of information beyond the window dressing that is absolutely viable in real world altercations.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

K-Man

Fair enough. I know when to let something go and this is obviously one of those times. I'll know for the future where "not" to go

Steve, let me throw out another option to consider. Rather than 'no going there' I would suggest you 'definitely go there' and find out the 'where and why' of what we're saying. You may never need kata in what you're doing but a better understanding of kata, from those that use it and face real world situations, may benefit you in the long run. Put us to the test. Why do we feel the way we feel? And is there any possible benefit to you as a result? BTW, many of the arts you study...so do I. And I've found tremendous value in kata for the real world.

Give it a go and see where it leads you.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I stated my opinions on how karate and other TMA's "IN MY AREA" are taught poorly while they claim to teach people self defense. I have seen the results so I'm not sure what is so hard for you to understand about that.

Being taught poorly could be just a localized phenomenon or perhaps a lack of information or understanding or your part.

I'm sure you are aware that I'm not the only self defense advocate in the world who thinks TMA's and their use of kata are a complete waste of time? This is something you are aware of I assume? As far as there being self defense experts teaching low percentage stuff I couldn't agree more. In fact some of the stuff I see is downright embarrassing in my opinion.

If you think kata are a waste of time then they will be a waste of time - for you. If you can't see the value in them for self defence then that is because of your lack of understanding of them. Doing a martial art that does not contain kata is your personal choice, people need to train in an art that that makes sense to them.

Most of my clients need to be taught self defense for their jobs and quickly and I provide that to them. They don't have time to play around with kata dances as some of them call it (Their words).

If your clients need to come to you to learn self defence in a short course and call kata dances then they are obviously not experienced enough to be a credible source of information or to have an informed opinion on the value of kata in self defence training.

 

[SteveNC]

Steve, let me throw out another option to consider. Rather than 'no going there' I would suggest you 'definitely go there' and find out the 'where and why' of what we're saying. You may never need kata in what you're doing but a better understanding of kata, from those that use it and face real world situations, may benefit you in the long run. Put us to the test. Why do we feel the way we feel? And is there any possible benefit to you as a result? BTW, many of the arts you study...so do I. And I've found tremendous value in kata for the real world.

Give it a go and see where it leads you.

I think there are a few here that think I am trying to prove, disprove or convince somebody of something regarding karate, kata and self defense and really I'm not. I was simply offering "my opinion" on karate training methods in regards to SELF DEFENSE. I have enough real world experience with many levels of hard core violence to feel comfortable stating my opinion on this or believe me I wouldn't offer it up. Not saying my way is the only way or the best way and I'm sure there will come a time here when somebody bashes my way which I'm fine with. I am not arrogant as to think I can't learn anything from other people on here but kata theory isn't one of them I can assure you. There is no way for you to open up my mind on this topic because my responses would be misunderstood and wouldn't be well received. If you want to show me how it benefits YOU go for it

 

[SteveNC]

Being taught poorly could be just a localized phenomenon or perhaps a lack of information or understanding or your part.



If you think kata are a waste of time then they will be a waste of time - for you. If you can't see the value in them for self defence then that is because of your lack of understanding of them. Doing a martial art that does not contain kata is your personal choice, people need to train in an art that that makes sense to them.



If your clients need to come to you to learn self defence in a short course and call kata dances then they are obviously not experienced enough to be a credible source of information or to have an informed opinion on the value of kata in self defence training.

The large majority of my clients are security professionals who can't afford to sit in a horse stance for a year and have an instructor drill them on proper kata forms in hopes that when/if they are faced with a bad situation they can handle the tactical side with confidence. I have had guys come to me with blackbelts that were so unprepared to defend themselves physically AND mentally that I had to ask these questions to understand why. I am far more expensive than a monthly rate at a TMA school so something obviously wasn't/isn't working for these folks don't you think? Were they bad TMA students? perhaps. Not credible or not experienced enough to form an opinion on the effectiveness of what they were being taught? Nope. I'm not dealing with teenagers or people looking to get in shape and get in touch with their inner self.

 

[ballen0351]

The large majority of my clients are security professionals who can't afford to sit in a horse stance for a year and have an instructor drill them on proper kata forms in hopes that when/if they are faced with a bad situation they can handle the tactical side with confidence. I have had guys come to me with blackbelts that were so unprepared to defend themselves physically AND mentally that I had to ask these questions to understand why. I am far more expensive than a monthly rate at a TMA school so something obviously wasn't/isn't working for these folks don't you think? Were they bad TMA students? perhaps. Not credible or not experienced enough to form an opinion on the effectiveness of what they were being taught? Nope. I'm not dealing with teenagers or people looking to get in shape and get in touch with their inner self.

anyone that would call a kata a dance no matter what color belt they are wearing is not able to make an opinion. I've got the same LINE training as you as well as Police Defensive tactics and Goju Ryu karate. I've used more Goju in 14 years of police work then anything else. You don't like kata because you don't understand kata. Everythiing found in LINE training is found in Kara.