Training methodologies of Karate

[mccainvb]

Hi friends

I am a karate practitioner and would like to know about other arts and would like to share my views on karate. I have been searching through various websites in different countries. I wish to lean different http://senseitejsinghbahadur.in/ training methodologies of various arts and how these arts have been developed. Why there has been e distance between arts as still they are all close to each other on their concept.

 

[SteveNC]

Nothing against Karate if you are looking for a connection to an ancient art that is no longer taught with any form of relevance to todays society, especially when they market themselves as self defense schools. Karate can be fun and rewarding but the owners of these schools often serve up a bogus mission statement to get people to sign that contract.

 

[Chris Parker]

Nothing against Karate if you are looking for a connection to an ancient art that is no longer taught with any form of relevance to todays society, especially when they market themselves as self defense schools. Karate can be fun and rewarding but the owners of these schools often serve up a bogus mission statement to get people to sign that contract.

Just a word of caution, Steve, the rules you agreed to when you signed up here are very much against things like art bashing and the like... there's nothing in the OP about modern self defence, applicability or anything else, so this comment can be taken as being an attack, and is fairly out of context, unwelcome, and (if I'm to be blunt) inaccurate in a few ways. Oh, and karate is hardly that "ancient", when all's said and done... especially compared with some of my stuff...

With regards to the OP, what you're asking is fairly vague... I'm not really sure what it is you're asking, or saying (when you talk about arts being "close to each other on their concepts")....

 

[SteveNC]

Chris I wasn't bashing karate. If I said anything negative it was in regards to karate "schools" and my comment on self defense was in relation to the mission statement in the link provided which I have found to be misleading. But thanks for the word of caution.

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay. You might want to look a little more tactfully at the delivery, in future... telling people that their art is "an ancient art that is no longer taught with any form of relevance" can get you in trouble... especially as there are quite a large number of schools who do indeed endeavour to be very relevant to todays society and needs.

 

[K-man]

Hi friends

I am a karate practitioner and would like to know about other arts and would like to share my views on karate. I have been searching through various websites in different countries. I wish to lean different http://senseitejsinghbahadur.in/ training methodologies of various arts and how these arts have been developed. Why there has been e distance between arts as still they are all close to each other on their concept.

Welcome to MT. :wavey:

I'm a little confused as you say you are a karate practitioner, you list your primary art as judo and you post a link to an Okinawan Goju site in India. As Chris said, the post from SteveNC is totally disrespectful of karate and is very inaccurate. To say karate is taught with no relevance to today's society could not be further from the truth in any school I have seen, and that even includes the poor ones. In fact, I say to all my students, if we train anything that you can't use in a pub fight I will throw it out of the syllabus. The site you referred to has poorly written paragraphs where English is obviously not the first language but it does convey sentiment with which I agree. Okinawan karate is the closest you will find to the original karate practised a hundred years ago. Karate has changed over time especially in Japan where it now is more a sport than reality based self defence. Even so, I believe anyone training any firm of karate will develop the skills necessary to defend themselves should the need arise.

As to the differences between the arts. It is probably that they have developed in different countries to deal with the conditions in the country of origin. Muay Thai from Thailand developed from the local boxing. The Philippino martial arts are weapon based, Chinese are more complex through what is basically Kung fu and so on. The Okinawans blended Kung fu with their local Te to produce Karate, the Japanese modified Jujutsu to produce Judo and Aikido, the Brazilians developed Judo into BJJ, the Israelis blended Muay Thai with boxing and BJJ to produce Krav Maga and so on.

So although training methodologies might vary, there is a lot of overlap between the different martial arts and of course some of them have developed principally as martial sports. At the end of the day the objective is to strike, kick, knee, elbow or choke your opponent or apply some form of control on him as in locks and holds. All of the methods of doing that are present in any properly taught reality based martial art.
:asian:

 

[SteveNC]

Perhaps I should do a better job of explaining my thoughts on Karate, self defense and THE WAY THEY ARE TAUGHT where I live. I would venture to guess that 8 out of every 10 people that comes to me for self defense advice or training came from a Karate or TKD establishment that harped about teaching them self defense. Some of these folks have "black belts" and when I asses their skill level from a tactical standpoint it is downright embarrassing to say the least not to mention the fact that most have little to no knowledge of self awareness and avoidance education (The most important aspects of self defense). They spend countless hours doing Kata and board breaking which in my humble opinion is a complete and utter waste of time from a self defense POV. The reason these folks come to me is in their own words "To learn self defense" because they were sold a bill of goods.

Again I have nothing against Karate "The Art" and I have all the admiration in the world for anybody that practices Karate or any TMA to better themselves and their lives but people who sign a contract expecting to learn self defense are more often than not left disappointed. I am fine with people disagreeing with me and fully expect it but NO I am not disrespecting Karate.

 

[Flying Crane]

I am fine with people disagreeing with me and fully expect it but NO I am not disrespecting Karate.

it may be that your intention is to not disrespect karate, but what you are saying and how you are saying is does come across as disrespectful.

 

[EddieCyrax]

Perhaps I should do a better job of explaining my thoughts on Karate, self defense and THE WAY THEY ARE TAUGHT where I live. I would venture to guess that 8 out of every 10 people that comes to me for self defense advice or training came from a Karate or TKD establishment that harped about teaching them self defense. Some of these folks have "black belts" and when I asses their skill level from a tactical standpoint it is downright embarrassing to say the least not to mention the fact that most have little to no knowledge of self awareness and avoidance education (The most important aspects of self defense). They spend countless hours doing Kata and board breaking which in my humble opinion is a complete and utter waste of time from a self defense POV. The reason these folks come to me is in their own words "To learn self defense" because they were sold a bill of goods.

Again I have nothing against Karate "The Art" and I have all the admiration in the world for anybody that practices Karate or any TMA to better themselves and their lives but people who sign a contract expecting to learn self defense are more often than not left disappointed. I am fine with people disagreeing with me and fully expect it but NO I am not disrespecting Karate.

People join MA for varying reasons, many of which either are not required by their instructors (sadly) or personally willing to put in the time to understand the training methods and learning to apply them. Your disreqard for the practice of kata and board breaking shows your lack of understanding in the use of these tools/drills. These drills are not the end-all application to MA where they are practiced. They are designed to educate the practicioner on body mechanics, strike structure, focus, etc. Again these are tools that only represent a piece of ones training. These learnings should be incorporated within their self defense, sparring, other aspects of training. Have you ever lifted free weights at a gym? There is a proper way to do this with proper focus on body alignment to reduce the chance of injury and increase efficiency of effort. Kata's and board breaking are similar. They teach efficiency and body mechanics. These mechanics need to be applied in all the other aspects of ones training.

It sounds like you have already developed a strong bias to how things "should be", to realistically provide you information on how I or others might approach their training.

For that I am sorry for you.

 

[SteveNC]

People join MA for varying reasons, many of which either are not required by their instructors (sadly) or personally willing to put in the time to understand the training methods and learning to apply them. Your disreqard for the practice of kata and board breaking shows your lack of understanding in the use of these tools/drills. These drills are not the end-all application to MA where they are practiced. They are designed to educate the practicioner on body mechanics, strike structure, focus, etc. Again these are tools that only represent a piece of ones training. These learnings should be incorporated within their self defense, sparring, other aspects of training. Have you ever lifted free weights at a gym? There is a proper way to do this with proper focus on body alignment to reduce the chance of injury and increase efficiency of effort. Kata's and board breaking are similar. They teach efficiency and body mechanics. These mechanics need to be applied in all the other aspects of ones training.

It sounds like you have already developed a strong bias to how things "should be", to realistically provide you information on how I or others might approach their training.

For that I am sorry for you.

Board breaking and Kata teach efficiency? At what point in a persons training does breaking a little board or performing synchronized movements actually help a person defend themselves? Week 2? Year 2? Year 3 or 4? If I pounced on you out of nowhere and began raining upon you palm strikes, elbows, and kicks to your shin where does Kata come into play to help you? How about multiple attackers? Like I mentioned before I have countless numbers of people come to me from Karate schools frustrated at the fact that they have just spent 5 years of wasted time and money because their goal was to gain confidence in defending themselves within a reasonable timeframe.

 

[Flying Crane]

Board breaking and Kata teach efficiency? At what point in a persons training does breaking a little board or performing synchronized movements actually help a person defend themselves? Week 2? Year 2? Year 3 or 4? If I pounced on you out of nowhere and began raining upon you palm strikes, elbows, and kicks to your shin where does Kata come into play to help you? How about multiple attackers? Like I mentioned before I have countless numbers of people come to me from Karate schools frustrated at the fact that they have just spent 5 years of wasted time and money because their goal was to gain confidence in defending themselves within a reasonable timeframe.

sounds like you don't like kata. That's OK, you don't have to do it. Kata is not necessary to gain combative skills. If you do not like kata, then don't do it and don't apologize for not doing it.

But other people understand how kata can be a very effective tool in developing combative skills. So we do it.

If you think that showing up here and telling us all how kata is a waste of time is going to get us to suddenly see the light and recognize your brilliance and stop doing kata, you won't get any traction here.

There are many skilled, highly experienced people here who might be willing to have a discussion with you, and help educate you on kata. That doesn't mean you need to start liking kata and it doesn't mean you need to start doing kata. It just means giving you an education on something that you appear to not understand. But you need to be open to receiving that education. If not, then discussion with you is pointless.

Lots of people come here and make statements like you are making here. We've seen this discussion unfold many times here. If you are not open to being educated, then I personally am happy to let you remain ignorant. If you choose to remain ignorance in the face of an education, then that is your choice. Willful and deliberate ignorance.

so make your choice.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Board breaking and Kata teach efficiency? At what point in a persons training does breaking a little board or performing synchronized movements actually help a person defend themselves? Week 2? Year 2? Year 3 or 4? If I pounced on you out of nowhere and began raining upon you palm strikes, elbows, and kicks to your shin where does Kata come into play to help you? How about multiple attackers? Like I mentioned before I have countless numbers of people come to me from Karate schools frustrated at the fact that they have just spent 5 years of wasted time and money because their goal was to gain confidence in defending themselves within a reasonable timeframe.

"Countless"? Really? Must be one HUGE school, then. What's the name of it, again? I'm sure with "countless" students (and that's just the ones who came from other schools) we'll be able to find some video examples of your excellence, right?

 

[SteveNC]

sounds like you don't like kata. That's OK, you don't have to do it. Kata is not necessary to gain combative skills. If you do not like kata, then don't do it and don't apologize for not doing it.

But other people understand how kata can be a very effective tool in developing combative skills. So we do it.

If you think that showing up here and telling us all how kata is a waste of time is going to get us to suddenly see the light and recognize your brilliance and stop doing kata, you won't get any traction here.

There are many skilled, highly experienced people here who might be willing to have a discussion with you, and help educate you on kata. That doesn't mean you need to start liking kata and it doesn't mean you need to start doing kata. It just means giving you an education on something that you appear to not understand. But you need to be open to receiving that education. If not, then discussion with you is pointless.

Lots of people come here and make statements like you are making here. We've seen this discussion unfold many times here. If you are not open to being educated, then I personally am happy to let you remain ignorant. If you choose to remain ignorance in the face of an education, then that is your choice. Willful and deliberate ignorance.

so make your choice.

Not trying to convince anybody of anything or trying to stop you from doing kata just stating my personal opinion. That's Ok isn't it? No reason to take it personal

 

[SteveNC]

"Countless"? Really? Must be one HUGE school, then. What's the name of it, again? I'm sure with "countless" students (and that's just the ones who came from other schools) we'll be able to find some video examples of your excellence, right?

Don't run a school with contract students. I offer personal training and instructor seminars to people who seek my experience. I come from a self defense background where the large majority of respected individuals in my profession agree with my line of thinking. If it offends you because I don't have 10,000 post here my apologies.

 

[K-man]

Board breaking and Kata teach efficiency? At what point in a persons training does breaking a little board or performing synchronized movements actually help a person defend themselves? Week 2? Year 2? Year 3 or 4? If I pounced on you out of nowhere and began raining upon you palm strikes, elbows, and kicks to your shin where does Kata come into play to help you? How about multiple attackers? Like I mentioned before I have countless numbers of people come to me from Karate schools frustrated at the fact that they have just spent 5 years of wasted time and money because their goal was to gain confidence in defending themselves within a reasonable timeframe.

I must confess we don't do much in the way of breaking boards. I did a bit of that when I was teaching kids because it gets them to strike through a target, the opposite to sport sparring that teaches you to pull your punch.

As for kata, you have demonstrated not only bias but ignorance. If I was running a bar I would have to know how to mix drinks and open packets of peanuts and chips. I have no need to know how to produce gourmet meals. But if I could produce those meals my business would possibly be better. I certainly wouldn't be saying "learning to cook properly is a waste of time". Krav is like opening the bag of chips, effective if you're hungry. Karate is like walking up to the buffet, far more satisfying and just as effective in satisfying your hunger. If I had to teach someone self defence skills in a short period I would be relying on my Krav background. If I had more time I would use my karate. There is very little in Krav that is not in traditional karate and what isn't in the karate I teach anyway. Kata are fighting systems, not 'synchronised movements'. I teach them as such from the very beginning. The kata itself is just the beginning. It contains the basic information. The bunkai contains the application. How long it takes to be useful depends on the individual. You could start to use it within a few months. How long does it take to be able to use Krav? I would say about the same time. After 12 months Krav guy will possibly be more effective than karate guy. After 5 years Karate guy should be way ahead of the Krav guy. What you are describing is poor instruction.

If you pounce on me out of nowhere my first reaction from karate, as in Krav, will be to protect virtually instinctively. The next is no different in either. Enter and hit. In Krav we still train combinations and these are sequences. You might control an arm, go for a head shot, come in with several knees and when your attacker bends strike to the side or back of the neck and take him down. Kata teaches the same thing. The difference is that if that sequence is not effective in stopping your attacker, Krav guy has to start again. Karate guy using kata has the next move mapped out for him. Plan A fails, plan B follows straight on. If it is not being taught that way blame the instructor, not the kata.

Multiple attackers are different. Kata is not designed for multiple attackers although it can be used to a limited extent in that situation. I much prefer the Systema approach to multiple attackers and that is what I teach my karate guys, once again from day one.

I would suggest that your 5 year karate guy coming to you lamenting the time wasted would be the same coming to me. The difference would be, I would work on his basic skills, show him the kata application and have him up to speed in a very short while. It appears from your comments of five years wasted, that you reinforce that feeling of failure and take him back to step one.

Don't run a school with contract students. I offer personal training and instructor seminars to people who seek my experience. I come from a self defense background where the large majority of respected individuals in my profession agree with my line of thinking. If it offends you because I don't have 10,000 post here my apologies.

I can't believe so many respected individuals would agree with you as most people I know in that field have a martial art background. The fact that you haven't is not your fault but it is your loss.
:asian:

Oh! I don't have 10,000 posts either but I guess I might get there one day. (I also don't have contract students. I teach for just enough to cover the costs. )

 

[SteveNC]

K-Man

Most of the professionals I have worked with indeed have TMA backgrounds. Now as seasoned self defense specialist Kata is simply not apart of the equation and that is for good reason. I'm sorry but it's the truth and by no means have I been trying to disrespect anyone that believes in it. You wont see any respected self defense instructor teaching flying kicks either. The tactical side of self defense training comes from any of a number of traditional martial arts sans the fluff that is simply impractical.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

SteveNC,

I can appreciate where you're coming from with many of your comments. What I would like you to consider is that you're broad-brush stroking 'Karate' as a whole based upon personal experiences. Now, nothing at all wrong with personal experience and indeed it is what shapes our perspective. One of the reasons for this board, and others, is to expand that personal experience with that of others. Using Karate (and you can toss in TKD or any other art if you'd like);

They can be a complete waste of ones time, effort and money. Or they can be exactly what one is looking for, for a specific purpose/goal. Karate can have a sport element to it, or it can be a system of self-defense that works in the real world. Depends on the instructor, their experience and their training.

Let's use kata as an example. For many, and I'd say most schools, kata is a cookie-cutter, class filler that an instructor uses to get a student to the next level. It has little depth and very little practical application. However, there ARE schools in which kata (the same kata in fact) are catalogs of excellent, real world applicable fighting methods/strategies/principle/techniques. The masters of old often felt that only a very few (and in some cases only one) kata were actually needed for a life time of study. Kata contain, in addition to the strikes & kicks one normally associates with 'Karate', training in locks, throws, chokes, balance displacement, cavity pressing, misplacing the tendon/ligament/bone etc. From a standing, grappling or ground position.

All depends upon how it is taught...and if it is what the student wants. Those wishing sport arts don't need this type of training. Those that wish the fight to be over in seconds do need this type of training (in addition to avoiding the fight in the first place). The training can be specific, focused and scenario based on real world altercations. And kata is just one highly effective tool used in Karate.

I've been using 'Karate' for real world self defense for over three decades. It boils down to what you're looking for, how it is taught and how serious you train.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

K-Man

Most of the professionals I have worked with indeed have TMA backgrounds. Now as seasoned self defense specialist Kata is simply not apart of the equation and that is for good reason. I'm sorry but it's the truth and by no means have I been trying to disrespect anyone that believes in it. You wont see any respected self defense instructor teaching flying kicks either. The tactical side of self defense training comes from any of a number of traditional martial arts sans the fluff that is simply impractical.

As one of the resident SD guys on the board, and again touching on my above post...no flying kicks are taught. But kata definitely is taught. It is a premier tool if the instructor knows how to correctly use it/teach it. Sadly, most do not. It most definitely is not in the 'fluff' category.

 

[SteveNC]

As one of the resident SD guys on the board, and again touching on my above post...no flying kicks are taught. But kata definitely is taught. It is a premier tool if the instructor knows how to correctly use it/teach it. Sadly, most do not. It most definitely is not in the 'fluff' category.

Fair enough we will just have to agree to disagree. If you believe in kata that's good enough for me

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Fair enough we will just have to agree to disagree. If you believe in kata that's good enough for me

At one time, many years ago, I thought kata was a waste of time. A complete waste of time. My goals were purely self defense, and in some cases they were offense based. And kata wasn't helping with those goals. What I came to realize though was that it wasn't that the kata in-and-of-themselves were devoid or deficient, rather it was the instructor(s). And that isn't meant to be a slam against any of my instructors. I've been extremely fortunate to have trained with many that most will never have the opportunity to train with. And they were phenomenal at real world self defense. Some of the very best in the business. But then I had the opportunity to study kata from a very different perspective and it changed the entire way I train and teach. I discovered that all of the valuable SD training that I'd received over the years was contained in karate kata. I just never realized it was there until my perspective and training changed.

Bottom line is if one wants real world self defense, they only need to examine karate kata from the correct perspective. Thanks to the internet, that ability is readily available. If you have any interest at all, shoot me a PM.
:asian: