TKD is a martial art..... period!!!!

Manny

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That's it! TKD is a Korean Martial Art! some people likes the sport side that was generated as evolution of this martial art and some people don't. The same is with Judo (olimpic sport too) and Shotokan karate Do and even Chinese Wu-Shu just to name some Martial Arts.

I think we must draw a line beetwen both things, in one side we had TaeKwonDo and in the other we have Sport TaeKwonDo (kyorugi and poomsae competitions), and yes both can coexist.

My friend Daniel once told me -Shotokan karate is a very sportive martial art too-, and in some ways it's like TKD,- it has at least too organizations the JKA end the ISKF and most of the Shotokan Karate training is aimed to competition, that's what he said to me.

I really don't like so much the WTF/Olimpic Sparring, I love to use equaly hands and feet, my idea of TKD is more than just kicks to the air or to the palchaguis, however that's my way of thinking and there will be detractores of TKD always, so I must forget the bad words that people not knowing TKD made.

Manny
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Same coin, two sides. Separate side, but the same coin. Heads and tails are distinct on a coin, so in that regard, they are different, something that I have maintained in many of these discussions.

But they are still one coin, an opinion that I would not have expressed a year ago (thank you Puunui).

Daniel
 

dancingalone

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Same coin, two sides. Separate side, but the same coin. Heads and tails are distinct on a coin, so in that regard, they are different, something that I have maintained in many of these discussions.

But they are still one coin, an opinion that I would not have expressed a year ago (thank you Puunui).

Daniel

Hmm, I skimmed through those threads and likely missed the brunt of the discussion. Could you summarize how you reconcile the fact that sometimes what we do in sport is antithetical to what is done in traditional TKD and vice versa?
 

Daniel Sullivan

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Hmm, I skimmed through those threads and likely missed the brunt of the discussion.

Here's the thread in question: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92215

Could you summarize how you reconcile the fact that sometimes what we do in sport is antithetical to what is done in traditional TKD and vice versa?
I maintain that the two are different, and still do, though there is enough overlap between them to make them parts of a unified whole. A year ago, I probably would not have said that. I'd say read through the conversation. Aside from the nature of a tournament in any art being necesarilly different and in some cases, antithetical to, real world self defense, some of what I thought of as specifically antithetical, after careful consideration, are not quite as antithetical as I had originally thought.

Daniel
 

KarateMomUSA

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TKD is what you make of it. Hopefully you will find a good school with a talented instructor who will best guide you to where you wish to go. That to me has always been the hard part, finding a good school that matches your desires.
 

granfire

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That's it! TKD is a Korean Martial Art! some people likes the sport side that was generated as evolution of this martial art and some people don't. The same is with Judo (olimpic sport too) and Shotokan karate Do and even Chinese Wu-Shu just to name some Martial Arts.

I think we must draw a line beetwen both things, in one side we had TaeKwonDo and in the other we have Sport TaeKwonDo (kyorugi and poomsae competitions), and yes both can coexist.

My friend Daniel once told me -Shotokan karate is a very sportive martial art too-, and in some ways it's like TKD,- it has at least too organizations the JKA end the ISKF and most of the Shotokan Karate training is aimed to competition, that's what he said to me.

I really don't like so much the WTF/Olimpic Sparring, I love to use equaly hands and feet, my idea of TKD is more than just kicks to the air or to the palchaguis, however that's my way of thinking and there will be detractores of TKD always, so I must forget the bad words that people not knowing TKD made.

Manny

I would sure be interested to hear the story that prompted this post.
 

dancingalone

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Thanks.

I maintain that the two are different, and still do, though there is enough overlap between them to make them parts of a unified whole. A year ago, I probably would not have said that. I'd say read through the conversation. Aside from the nature of a tournament in any art being necesarilly different and in some cases, antithetical to, real world self defense, some of what I thought of as specifically antithetical, after careful consideration, are not quite as antithetical as I had originally thought.

I also see an overlap but I do not believe they are different sides of the same coin. The technical goals are too apart IMO.

This sums up my thoughts.


tkd.gif
 
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Manny

Manny

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TKD is what you make of it. Hopefully you will find a good school with a talented instructor who will best guide you to where you wish to go. That to me has always been the hard part, finding a good school that matches your desires.

I must agree. It's hard to find a good teacher/sambonim and it's twice harder finding a good teacher that matches one's goals/desires.

Manny
 

puunui

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Hmm, I skimmed through those threads and likely missed the brunt of the discussion. Could you summarize how you reconcile the fact that sometimes what we do in sport is antithetical to what is done in traditional TKD and vice versa?


Different situations require different responses. If you are in a headlock, then you would respond differently than if someone were grabbing your wrist. If you are in a situation where head punches and no leg kicks are not allowed, you will respond differently than if you were in a situation where head punches, leg kicks and anything else are allowed. We are not carpenters with only a claw hammer to work with.
 

puunui

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I must agree. It's hard to find a good teacher/sambonim and it's twice harder finding a good teacher that matches one's goals/desires.


You know the old saying, when the student is ready, the teacher appears. I really believe that.
 

dancingalone

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Different situations require different responses. If you are in a headlock, then you would respond differently than if someone were grabbing your wrist. If you are in a situation where head punches and no leg kicks are not allowed, you will respond differently than if you were in a situation where head punches, leg kicks and anything else are allowed. We are not carpenters with only a claw hammer to work with.

I'll give an illustration of why I think sport and traditional are separate worlds.

Recently I was practicing with a mixed group of martial artists. There are some sambo/judo/BJJ people in the group so we frequently do some rolling and submission wrestling at the end of the session. I found myself on top of another guy going for ude garami, an armlock, which I finally acquired after some difficulty. But if we were really fighting, I'd imagine I'd be raining down elbows or hammer fists instead. And in fact, this is a drill I teach from time to time at my dojo which is how to finish a fight with strikes when you find yourself on the ground on top on an attacker.

It is understood that both situations are just practice or drills. You're working with a friend and you obviously won't be hurting each another. But only in one situation was I intentionally prolonging the encounter due to a rule set that required a submission for victory.

This isn't saying that the sport side isn't valuable. I verified to myself after all that I could utilize ude garami against a struggling opponent, so there is a lot of utility there in sport application, and I could see why sports competition can be a good auxiliary to traditional self-defense training.

But I don't see the two as Castor and Pollux or Yin and Yang. Those would be more like the dualistic different faces to the same coin Daniel mentioned above. To me, they are more like the Earth and Mars. Yes, there are with some characteristics in common, but they are still distinctly different planets.
 

puunui

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But I don't see the two as Castor and Pollux or Yin and Yang. Those would be more like the dualistic different faces to the same coin Daniel mentioned above. To me, they are more like the Earth and Mars. Yes, there are with some characteristics in common, but they are still distinctly different planets.


Or it is the same planet, except where you are is snowing, and where I am it's raining, and still another place it's sunny, all on the same planet. Or it might be daytime where you are right now, which requires a different response to something by someone where it is night. Or you are asian, and sitting next to you is a black man, a white woman and an indian child. Different, or are you all human? You and I are both in the US Army, you are a special forces operative, I am the army clerk that processes your paycheck. Are we both soldiers?
 

dancingalone

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You and I are both in the US Army, you are a special forces operative, I am the army clerk that processes your paycheck. Are we both soldiers?

I think we answered this one recently, at least with regard to the word 'warrior' instead of 'soldier'. Most said no.

I can accept that the distinction between sport and traditional training is a personal one. To me, the chasm between the two is rather large - others may not find the same, particularly if they already incorporate a high degree of sport training inside their syllabus.
 

puunui

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I can accept that the distinction between sport and traditional training is a personal one. To me, the chasm between the two is rather large - others may not find the same, particularly if they already incorporate a high degree of sport training inside their syllabus.

You might be correct, but that doesn't mean that the "sport" guy and the "traditional" guy, doing different training, with different focus, are not both Taekwondoin.
 

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TKD is a martial art as much as any other system. If you want to use TKD as self defense find an instructor who can teach you this or figure it out. If you want to do competition/sport TKD then do the same for that.
 

Carol

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I see it more as Alpine (downhill) skiing, vs. Nordic (cross-country) skiing.

They are different applications of similar principles.

Both are skiers.

Both use skis, but Nordic skis tend to be longer and narrower than Alpine skis.

Both skiers use ski boots, but Nordic boots are light and tend to resemble walking boots, where Alpine boots are heavy and rigidly immobilize the ankle to prevent injury.

Both skis have bindings, but Nordic bindings tend to only clamp at the toe, leaving the skiers heel to raise in a natural fashion as they move. Alpine binding firmly clamp toe and heel to the ski, to prevent injury and facilitate higher speeds.

Both skiers use poles, but Nordic poles tend to be lightweight poles geared more for long treks, whereas Alpine poles tend to be stronger and capable of sustaining the forces of a skier rocketing down the hill.

While the two are both skiing, the applications are different. Nordic skiing may not be for the adrernaline junkie who loves the speed and perilous control of flying downhill. Alpine skiing may not be for the wanderer that likes to tour the countryside.

Also, there are some fundamentals that are shared between the two...yet there is also a good deal of material that is different. The training focus is often different. Nordic skiers tend to focus more on endurance, Alpine skiers focus more on speed and power. As the skier's ability improves, the differences between the two types of skiing become more prominent, as the technical goals become further apart -- even though many are built on the same or similar fundamentals..

Naturally many skiers have their preference -- often strongly so -- as to which they like better.

But in the end...both Nordic and Alpine skiing serve their given applications quite nicely. And they are both performed by pople who are skiers, outdoors(wo)men, and athletic. Perhaps most important of all: under the lessons, challenges, injuries, and disciplines -- it is a lot of fun. If you're not having fun out there, it may be time to try something else. :)
 

ralphmcpherson

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I see it more as Alpine (downhill) skiing, vs. Nordic (cross-country) skiing.

They are different applications of similar principles.

Both are skiers.

Both use skis, but Nordic skis tend to be longer and narrower than Alpine skis.

Both skiers use ski boots, but Nordic boots are light and tend to resemble walking boots, where Alpine boots are heavy and rigidly immobilize the ankle to prevent injury.

Both skis have bindings, but Nordic bindings tend to only clamp at the toe, leaving the skiers heel to raise in a natural fashion as they move. Alpine binding firmly clamp toe and heel to the ski, to prevent injury and facilitate higher speeds.

Both skiers use poles, but Nordic poles tend to be lightweight poles geared more for long treks, whereas Alpine poles tend to be stronger and capable of sustaining the forces of a skier rocketing down the hill.

While the two are both skiing, the applications are different. Nordic skiing may not be for the adrernaline junkie who loves the speed and perilous control of flying downhill. Alpine skiing may not be for the wanderer that likes to tour the countryside.

Also, there are some fundamentals that are shared between the two...yet there is also a good deal of material that is different. The training focus is often different. Nordic skiers tend to focus more on endurance, Alpine skiers focus more on speed and power. As the skier's ability improves, the differences between the two types of skiing become more prominent, as the technical goals become further apart -- even though many are built on the same or similar fundamentals..

Naturally many skiers have their preference -- often strongly so -- as to which they like better.

But in the end...both Nordic and Alpine skiing serve their given applications quite nicely. And they are both performed by pople who are skiers, outdoors(wo)men, and athletic. Perhaps most important of all: under the lessons, challenges, injuries, and disciplines -- it is a lot of fun. If you're not having fun out there, it may be time to try something else. :)
Well said carol. Over here many people use the analogy of test cricket as opposed to one day cricket. They still use a bat and ball and a set of stumps, but that is where the similarity ends. Not many players can be successful at both forms of the game because the aproach is so different. I know if I hand picked the best tkdist I could find from my club and took them down to a local WTF sparring comp I have no doubt that the person from my club would get their *** kicked and the same would happen if I got a WTF sparrer and took them for a visit where I train. They both do tkd, but their approach is totally different because one is geared toward sport and the other toward the martial side of the art. I really have no problem with this and believe they can co-exist, but I also believe they should have separate names if for no other reason than to help avoid confusion in the general public. As Ive said before, I was at a local school fete recently and the local kukki club was doing a demo there. Neither my daughter or myself (we both do tkd) recognised a single thing they did, it was completely foreign to us. I could vaguely recognise koryo form but with the short stances etc it was barely recognisable. I remember watching the tkd at the last olympics with my daughter (who was then a 7 year old blue belt) and after watching a few fights she turned and said "this looks fun, which martial art is is this?". The 3 biggest tkd clubs in my area (all of which have over 3000 members) do not do kukki style, so it just gets a bit confusing with so many "branches" all calling themself 'tkd'.
 

Cirdan

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I think that in most places where both traditional Karate and the sports side are taught, it is made clear that the two are completely different worlds. TKDists I`ve spoken to tend to have a different view and argue they are much the same.

Anyway it doesn`t matter what you call it, just be mindful about what you are doing.
 
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