questions about TKD

[Daniel Sullivan]

If you're talking about "olympic sparring-oriented" or acrobactic kicks, I agree with you.

Yes. The school was an all around taekwondo school and the curriculum included high kicks and WTF sparring. I don't know what their program is like at this point.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

For me sport tkd has helped to gaing more students indide dojangs and the widspread of TKD all over the world, this is the good side, but also has watered down the traditional way of doing or teaching tkd aka martial art/self defense, this is the bad side of the story.

What has changed in the self defense portion of the curriculum?

Also, I would like to note that shihap kyorugi (WTF sparring) is a traditional part of Kukki taekwondo, the current form of which has been around since 1972. Taegeuk pumsae and "WTF sparring" have both been a part of Kukki taekwondo since 1973. That is forty years. Given that taekwondo as an art is rougly 68 years old (counting from 1945) and that the name, taekwondo, wasn't coined until 1955, and wasn't completely standardized until about 1973, modern taekwondo arguably is traditional Kukki taekwondo.

Keep in mind that traditional doesn't mean old; it simply means that it is the way it has been done for the longest period of time.

Now, the daycare center, black belt clubs, and the more commercialized schools are not traditional, though unless thing change in the next ten to twenty years, it will be.

My master tend to focus more on kicking drills and sport tkd (WTF Style) and some poomsae, I tend to focus on the martial side of TKD and this is for me: a) Basics, b)Poomsae c)Aplications (one step and three step sparring)/ Self defense (Ho shi Sul) d)Vocabulary and hystory of TKD, etc.

Is your hoshisul TKD based or is it culled from hapkido?

Basically of my 8 students, 6 take lessons with my master and with me so they are getting th kicking drills and the clasic TKD ther other two students are a marron belt who is an exjidokwaner likemyself that likeas a lot the old the other is a blue belt that I forge myself.

I teach kicking drills too but not making a huge emphasis on it, my kicking drills are simple and straight you know... the kicks that we use in a self defense scenario like peet chagui, ap chagui, ti chagui and in some cases dolyo chagui and ax kicks but.... forget about tornado kicks or high jumping hook kicks ala Van Dame.

I prefer a more practical kicking set myself as well. I've never been a big fan of tornado kicks or jumping kicks either. I think they're cool in a sport or tournament setting, and very athletic, but I don't care for them in practical use.

 

[Manny]

My Ho-si-sul is based in a lot of things, not only in TKD but in some hapkido moves, some kenpo moves and some judo sweeps and aikido evasions and control of the oponent. When I was younger in Jido Kwan headquarters in my town we had some hapikido moves. I have done some research in the internet and books about self defense and I have been aply them in my own self defense plan.

I am not a self defense expert, I am not a master or grandmaster I am just a regular guy who loves to know how to defende myself and take control of the bad things, that's all, and like to pass the knowledge I have to others.

Manny

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My Ho-si-sul is based in a lot of things, not only in TKD but in some hapkido moves, some kenpo moves and some judo sweeps and aikido evasions and control of the oponent. When I was younger in Jido Kwan headquarters in my town we had some hapikido moves. I have done some research in the internet and books about self defense and I have been aply them in my own self defense plan.

Nothing wrong with that. I was just curious as to whether your school's hoshinsul was entirely sourced from the pumsae or if were entirely sourced from elsewhere. Sounds like a good program.

I am not a self defense expert, I am not a master or grandmaster I am just a regular guy who loves to know how to defende myself and take control of the bad things, that's all, and like to pass the knowledge I have to others.

Sounds like your students are in good hands with you.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I have used kicks in the few situations where I have had to defend myself since high school. Both times it was the same kick; knee level side kick. One was against a would be mugger with a knife. Both times it was simply the opening that presented itself and both times, the attackers ended up on the ground and I quickly extracated myself from the situation.

Kicks have their place in self defense, but I firmly believe that in self defense applications, kicking above waist level is highly unadvisable.

Regarding people kicking me, I have not had anybody attempt kicking me since elementary school (dojang and tournament excepted of course).

I highlighted part of your quote because it makes an excellent point. Some thoughts on this; most anything can occassionally work sometimes. A refined motor skilled kick aka a high flashy kick can work given the right set of circumstances. But it isn't a high % movement by any stretch. Whereas a low kick (such as your example to knee-level) is more gross motor, quicker, harder to defend against and generally much more effective. And it can indeed flow into a more substantial movement/technique. I think the examples that you and I have offered give a fairly reliable indication that kicking, of any type, isn't very common outside of trainng for the most part. More common would be the standard sucker-punch, clinch or swinging from the rafters.

Doesn't mean we should train in kicking (as well as defense against a kick). Only that the % of time dedicated to it should directly reflect the venue of training.

Edited to add: It would be interesting if some competitions allowed the grabbing of the foot/leg in order to defeat an incoming kick. Just a thought.

 

[Gorilla]

Kong Soo Do....WKF/NKF karate allows just that....along with sweeps and throws and multiple hand techniques. GOOGLE RAFAEL AGHAYEV or look up some of his fights on YouTube! Fun to watch!

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Kong Soo Do....WKF/NKF karate allows just that....along with sweeps and throws and multiple hand techniques. GOOGLE RAFAEL AGHAYEV or look up some of his fights on YouTube! Fun to watch!

That would be interesting to watch. IIRC you are also familar with venues that use a more strict sparring model i.e. KKW and such where one is not allowed to grab/sweep/tackle etc. How do the kicks compare between these venues? Are they about the same or are they different in frequency and/or technique if/when one is allowed to really use the kick against the kicker?

 

[Manny]

It will be interesting to have two styles of kyorugi inside dogang, a) wtf style and b) some kind of kyorugy using grabs,sweeps,take downs,etc.

Manny

 

[Rumy73]

Saddly this is true more than not. All one can say is that before joining any school you much watch for a while. I have seen many come in and watch classes quite a few times before they walk into our office to join or ask more questions. You need to watch and to ask questions before joining an school. You questions should be base around what you want out of your training. You should see what you want when you watch. That is all I can say.

A novice or the parents of novice probably have know idea of what they are looking at even if the could watch a 100 classes. Schools are not going to point out limitations with their curriculum. They are going to be vague at best. They are in business people. That all being said, the reality is that the type of TKD used in the Olympics is what is predominant. Kicking is the core of it all. Kicking that is high, fast and fancy at that. Because of this reality TKD is predominantly practiced by youth. Old styles of TKD and the allied styles of TSD and SBD better complement the body across the aging process.

 

[Gnarlie]

A novice or the parents of novice probably have know idea of what they are looking at even if the could watch a 100 classes. Schools are not going to point out limitations with their curriculum. They are going to be vague at best. They are in business people. That all being said, the reality is that the type of TKD used in the Olympics is what is predominant. Kicking is the core of it all. Kicking that is high, fast and fancy at that. Because of this reality TKD is predominantly practiced by youth. Old styles of TKD and the allied styles of TSD and SBD better complement the body across the aging process.

Not necessarily. The syllabus at the core of KKW Taekwondo does demand kicks but not high or fancy ones; it is certainly possible to progress in the art without them being high or fancy. Fancy kicking is an optional extra for sporty types to play with.

Most schools I've visited have the KKW syllabus as a foundation with a sport sparring layer over the top. Those who find sport sparring difficult due to age or flexibility issues are not forced into anything, and in my experience still enjoy learning from the game.

As a side note, has anybody else here examined what happens when the kicks in the KKW poomsae are directed low, as shin kicks or sweeps? The example of the target crescent followed by target elbow near the end of Taegeuk Chil Jang works well.


Gnarlie

 

[Gorilla]

That would be interesting to watch. IIRC you are also familar with venues that use a more strict sparring model i.e. KKW and such where one is not allowed to grab/sweep/tackle etc. How do the kicks compare between these venues? Are they about the same or are they different in frequency and/or technique if/when one is allowed to really use the kick against the kicker?

Frequency of kicks and the types of techs are different....the sweeps and take downs along with the punches change how you kick and the frequency also! The rules and strategy take away the spinning kicks! If you rely on kicking to much you will get caught you will get swept...my kids compete at a high level in both Tkd and Karate and it has made them more well rounded in martial arts...they do judo cross training to help with the Karate...and that has that has increased their overall skills also!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I highlighted part of your quote because it makes an excellent point. Some thoughts on this; most anything can occassionally work sometimes. A refined motor skilled kick aka a high flashy kick can work given the right set of circumstances. But it isn't a high % movement by any stretch. Whereas a low kick (such as your example to knee-level) is more gross motor, quicker, harder to defend against and generally much more effective. And it can indeed flow into a more substantial movement/technique. I think the examples that you and I have offered give a fairly reliable indication that kicking, of any type, isn't very common outside of trainng for the most part. More common would be the standard sucker-punch, clinch or swinging from the rafters.

Kicking is like anything else; if you rely on meat and potatoes techniques, you can get a lot of mileage out of them. If you rely on flashy, supposedly advanced techniques, you have a higher failure rate. Flashy techniques, including high kicks, against a determined and unrestrained opponent who means to do you harm are far too risky in my opinion.

As for commonality of kicks, I suspect that an attacker is more likely to kick you after your on the ground, and may have friends joining in, than they are to kick in the initial altercation. Based on personal observation, kicking as an opener is more common in grade school, though even then, you're usually looking at low kicks; shins, knees, groin and waist.

Doesn't mean we should train in kicking (as well as defense against a kick). Only that the % of time dedicated to it should directly reflect the venue of training.

Do you mean "Doesn't mean we shouldn't train in kicking"? If that is what you mean, then I agree, though I personally favor a more well rounded regimen of training rather than one based on liklihood of use.

Edited to add: It would be interesting if some competitions allowed the grabbing of the foot/leg in order to defeat an incoming kick. Just a thought.

Pro hapkido rules do allow this. Those are the rules that my group uses in sparring and which we used in the last two HKD schools where I trained.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It will be interesting to have two styles of kyorugi inside dogang, a) wtf style and b) some kind of kyorugy using grabs,sweeps,take downs,etc.

Manny

We did that at the last two schools where I have trained.