The Wing Chun fighting stance explained

[DaveB]

You are suggesting that because there is one branch of culture that leads to martial art mediocrity. That their isn't more elements that also contribute.

So you may not find the level of athleticism in training.

You may not have the talent pool or level of individual competence.

And you may have a system that is not efficient.

You can't suggest your system works because of a failure in other areas of development. That is silly.

I'm suggesting that you need to rule out other factors before you place blame on the one spot.

Earth-shattering concept, I know!

 

[DaveB]

I mean ok. Let's look at this simply.

If someone has a school with ten great fighters an two duds it is probably those two individuals just are not very good.

If someone has a school and nobody can fight. It is probably the teacher.

If there are multiple schools with multiple teachers. It is probably the system.

The larger a sample size we look at the less likely it is to be the individual.

Or am I missing something.

It's not for reasons previously discussed, but ok let's say that's true.

Show me.

Not the 3 or 4 vids on YouTube. Show me school after school where no one can fight to a level appropriate for their training in one style. Show me this large sample size???

Because if such a study existed where each student in a multitude of schools was tested on fighting appropriate to training (and yes you do need that part), I wouldn't be arguing against it. But you are suggesting evidence that doesn't exist but which you assume is there based on a few YouTube clips.

You've made my point for me. The work required to make your claim has not been done so we can't make the claim.

Simple. Logic.

 

[drop bear]

It's not for reasons previously discussed, but ok let's say that's true.

Show me.

Not the 3 or 4 vids on YouTube. Show me school after school where no one can fight to a level appropriate for their training in one style. Show me this large sample size???

Because if such a study existed where each student in a multitude of schools was tested on fighting appropriate to training (and yes you do need that part), I wouldn't be arguing against it. But you are suggesting evidence that doesn't exist but which you assume is there based on a few YouTube clips.

You've made my point for me. The work required to make your claim has not been done so we can't make the claim.

Simple. Logic.

Well. We have mma. Where we can see schools success.

 

[Hanzou]

It's not for reasons previously discussed, but ok let's say that's true.

Show me.

Not the 3 or 4 vids on YouTube. Show me school after school where no one can fight to a level appropriate for their training in one style. Show me this large sample size???

Because if such a study existed where each student in a multitude of schools was tested on fighting appropriate to training (and yes you do need that part), I wouldn't be arguing against it. But you are suggesting evidence that doesn't exist but which you assume is there based on a few YouTube clips.

You've made my point for me. The work required to make your claim has not been done so we can't make the claim.

Simple. Logic.

So again, why do professional fighters avoid using the WC guard and WC in general even when they market themselves as WC fighters?

 

[Martial D]

You don't need to actually do an art to recognize its stances and techniques. Orr doesn't use the WC guard or stances because he knows that it is a disadvantage in MMA.

Well no. Machida and Wonderboy don't do katas in the cage either.

 

[DaveB]

So again, why do professional fighters avoid using the WC guard and WC in general even when they market themselves as WC fighters?

Do they not?

 

[Hanzou]

Well no. Machida and Wonderboy don't do katas in the cage either.

Yes, for the exact same reason. When I did karate there was a definite disconnect between what we were training and how we actually fight. I can only imagine a similar disconnect exists within WC as well.

 

[Hanzou]

Do they not?

That isn't a fight video.

It should also be noted that the Iron Wolves gym isn't exactly lighting the MMA world on fire.

 

[Martial D]

Except its not been proven an ineffective method. Again, if the chun guard is ineffective because people got beaten while using it, then the boxing guard is doubly ineffective as many more people lost using it. Those boxers lost because they were punched, so clearly their guard failed.

Come on people, think critically before we all end up living on rafts, its not that hard. Look at the problem and just consider the causes that got you there. And don't stop at the first one.

Wing chun guy loses fight NOT= Wing chun sucks OR elements that (in your untrained eye) make Chun suck.

WHY? Because individual's train to win fights and a better opponent does NOT= a better style. No rocket science involved.

Drop Bear asked if any chun guys have fought anybody good using the chun guard.
The question he should have asked is have we seen any chun fighters with comparable training to their MMA opponents?

Strength, speed, stamina, number of punches thrown, number defended, time sparring etc etc etc

That is the only question that matters and until it's been answered in the affirmative we can't even begin to examine fighting style.

Wing chun and it's various components may all be useless but right now it is not even remotely proven.

Please FLG think deeper.

So wait. Your argument is that all the testing and trials that have come before now involving people using classical WC don't count? There is already a lot of data in. It's all pretty one sided.

Here's the thing..styles only ''work" when they are tailored to the actual conditions of two human beings Fighting..which is a fairly specific set.

You can't expect to bend the reality of what a fight is to conform to your style. That's backwards.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't write off WC..quite the opposite in fact. I think it's a gold mine of useful principles and techniques, driven by solid concept.

And this, in my eyes, is the problem with 'most' modern WC. Too many people have forgotten (grandmasters included) that it is a concept driven fighting system rather than a set of immutable and specific moves and positions.

 

[Martial D]

Yes, for the exact same reason. When I did karate there was a definite disconnect between what we were training and how we actually fight. I can only imagine a similar disconnect exists within WC as well.

It sure does, at least from the perspective of a 20+ year WC guy that trains with MMA guys.

I threw out the classic stance and guard ages ago. That's about when it started working

 

[Hanzou]

It sure does, at least from the perspective of a 20+ year WC guy that trains with MMA guys.

I threw out the classic stance and guard ages ago. That's about when it started working

As you should. You simply can't expect a martial concept from hundreds of years ago to work in a modern context when fighting has evolved. This is why saying that the WC guard is equal to the ever-evolving Boxer guard is a laughable proposition.

 

[wckf92]

Interesting discussion so far.
I am assuming you all are talking about the "classical/typical/traditional" WC guard where most WC'ers stand there like a statue trying their best to imitate Donnie Yen in the YM movies?

Do the WC'ers here feel that is the ONLY WC "guard"?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do the WC'ers here feel that is the ONLY WC "guard"?

I will say yes - the dropping elbow is at the center of your chest. As fat as I know, no other MA stile use that guard.

 

[wckf92]

I will say yes - the dropping elbow is at the center of your chest. As fat as I know, no other MA stile use that guard.

You actually think (or can actually execute/place) your elbow at the center of your chest??? Holy cow!!! Impressive!

 

[PiedmontChun]

Interesting discussion so far.
I am assuming you all are talking about the "classical/typical/traditional" WC guard where most WC'ers stand there like a statue trying their best to imitate Donnie Yen in the YM movies?

Do the WC'ers here feel that is the ONLY WC "guard"?

You hit the nail on the head with that last sentence. The WC guard is moveable and adaptable, contrary to some preconceptions.

In WC training, strikes are often kept to the neck / chest / below, and the guard might be kept a bit lower in keeping with that. In legitimate sparring, which should be done, strikes to head might be fair game depending on the school. The guard adapts and might be higher, but elbows still in, because that's an important aspect of the guard where you protect the centerline from the inside outward. And hands still open versus closed fist, for many reasons. Also, what if you are sparring a taller / shorter person? Again, the guard adapts.

In a hypothetical defense situation, I'm not going to square up with a guy and using an obvious guard like a kung fu movie. When I see some "Wing Chun versus Blank system" video on YouTube with a guy shuffling around in a super narrow stance and super rigid hands pointed forward in front of him, I cringe and feel like they have already lost. Its like they have a great starter toolbox, but have not figured out how to make the tools work for them versus being bound by them. And I don't say that from some position of expertise or authority, because I am certainly not.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You actually think (or can actually execute/place) your elbow at the center of your chest??? Holy cow!!! Impressive!

I don't like to place my elbow at my center line. I don't mind to move my both elbows away from my center as long as my hands can seal up the center. My opponent's punch has to pass my wrist gate before reaching to my elbow gate.

The guard adapts and might be higher, but elbows still in, because that's an important aspect of the guard where you protect the centerline from the inside outward. And hands still open versus closed fist, for many reasons.

You don't need "elbows in" to protect your center line. If you keep fists in but elbows out, it can protect your head better. For example the WC Bong Shou can be used to protect your head nicely.

You can keep 2 loose fists instead of open hands.

 

[Hanzou]

In a hypothetical defense situation, I'm not going to square up with a guy and using an obvious guard like a kung fu movie. When I see some "Wing Chun versus Blank system" video on YouTube with a guy shuffling around in a super narrow stance and super rigid hands pointed forward in front of him, I cringe and feel like they have already lost. Its like they have a great starter toolbox, but have not figured out how to make the tools work for them versus being bound by them. And I don't say that from some position of expertise or authority, because I am certainly not.

It should be noted that a lot of the guys in those videos are Wing Chun instructors.

Here's one such example:

 

[DaveB]

Yes, for the exact same reason. When I did karate there was a definite disconnect between what we were training and how we actually fight. I can only imagine a similar disconnect exists within WC as well.

Hmmm, so your saying the training might impact on the fighting??

It sure does, at least from the perspective of a 20+ year WC guy that trains with MMA guys.

I threw out the classic stance and guard ages ago. That's about when it started working

What was it about the extended guard that didn't work for you?

Have you also dropped blocking?

 

[DaveB]

It should be noted that a lot of the guys in those videos are Wing Chun instructors.

Here's one such example:

I give up, our species is doomed.

 

[Hanzou]

Hmmm, so your saying the training might impact on the fighting??

Of course.

WHAT your system is teaching is also important.