The Wing Chun fighting stance explained

[Headhunter]

I eagerly await the day I see some classical kung fu like Wing Chun used in a MMA context successfully. Until then, it's hard to take much of what they say (in terms of fighting theory) seriously.

Not everything is about Mma you know. Probably about 90% of people who do martial arts don't give a crap about Mma at all

 

[Hanzou]

Not everything is about Mma you know. Probably about 90% of people who do martial arts don't give a crap about Mma at all

Probably.

Despite that, MMA and NHBs are some of the best fight labs that we have.

If someone is saying that the Wing Chun fighting stance and guard is equal to the standard kickboxing stance and guard, we should be seeing professional fighters using it instead of the standard kickboxer variety.

We don't. There's a reason for that.

 

[KPM]

Probably.

Despite that, MMA and NHBs are some of the best fight labs that we have.

If someone is saying that the Wing Chun fighting stance and guard is equal to the standard kickboxing stance and guard, we should be seeing professional fighters using it instead of the standard kickboxer variety.

We don't. There's a reason for that.

I've become fairly convinced over the years that Wing Chun was intended to be more of an "ambush" or "self defense" method than a "squaring off" and "fighting/sparring" method. Its what you do when you find an attacker right in your face by surprise. Then the stance and the guard starts to make a bit more sense. The close-range emphasis and near total lack of a long range game starts to make more sense. Dismal failures in sparring with someone that knows what they are doing start to make more sense.

 

[Hanzou]

I've become fairly convinced over the years that Wing Chun was intended to be more of an "ambush" or "self defense" method than a "squaring off" and "fighting/sparring" method. Its what you do when you find an attacker right in your face by surprise. Then the stance and the guard starts to make a bit more sense. The close-range emphasis and near total lack of a long range game starts to make more sense. Dismal failures in sparring with someone that knows what they are doing start to make more sense.

That's definitely an interesting theory, and it makes sense given how WC operates. I'd be interested in seeing if WC practicioners share that view.

 

[DaveB]

Probably.

Despite that, MMA and NHBs are some of the best fight labs that we have.

If someone is saying that the Wing Chun fighting stance and guard is equal to the standard kickboxing stance and guard, we should be seeing professional fighters using it instead of the standard kickboxer variety.

We don't. There's a reason for that.

Yes, there is. People do what they know. Only the exceptional few innovate, and then only in directions that they know to do so.

My contention is that the classical bare knuckle guard (also seen used by old time karateka) is a different but not inferior method. So if MMA folk learn one way to fight that doesn't use x method, they won't spontaneously develop x that they don't understand.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes, there is. People do what they know. Only the exceptional few innovate, and then only in directions that they know to do so.

My contention is that the classical bare knuckle guard (also seen used by old time karateka) is a different but not inferior method. So if MMA folk learn one way to fight that doesn't use x method, they won't spontaneously develop x that they don't understand.

I disagree. In the realm of professional fighting, people do what works within context of the rules. MMA guys especially are looking for any possible advantage in the fight game, and they don't have time to mess with less effective tactics. Take Alan Orr for example; his entire gym is supposedly based off of using WC tactics in MMA. The problem is that if you look at him and his fighters, their striking and stance looks indistinguishable from the striking found in other MMA fighters.

The older methods are definitely inferior. Modern fighters across the board would destroy fighters from a century ago. Hell, modern fighters would destroy fighters from 20 years ago. Like all things fighting evolves, fighters get better and martial arts should evolve alongside them.

 

[Martial D]

I don't really see much out of what Alan Orr does that resembles Wing Chun. Looks like standard MMA striking and grappling to me. He even uses the boxing guard.

If someone had never done BJJ, would you expect them to recognize the why/how of positions, transitions, and submissions?

 

[DaveB]

I don't dispute either the evolution of fighting or the superiority of modern fighters.

But knowledge doesn't just blossom out of thin air. Fighters go to a gym and get taught one way to do things.

If they are never taught an extended centre guard or how to use it they will not just magically start doing it. Nor are they likely to spend the time and energy retraining themselves for a method they don't understand; especially if they are swayed by wing chun beatdown videos.

I'm sure if a few guys started using the chun guard and dominated in MMA other fighters would pick it up, but coming up with it and training in such a way as to make use of it, that's not happening.

 

[Hanzou]

If someone had never done BJJ, would you expect them to recognize the why/how of positions, transitions, and submissions?

You don't need to actually do an art to recognize its stances and techniques. Orr doesn't use the WC guard or stances because he knows that it is a disadvantage in MMA.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't dispute either the evolution of fighting or the superiority of modern fighters.

But knowledge doesn't just blossom out of thin air. Fighters go to a gym and get taught one way to do things.

If they are never taught an extended centre guard or how to use it they will not just magically start doing it. Nor are they likely to spend the time and energy retraining themselves for a method they don't understand; especially if they are swayed by wing chun beatdown videos.

I'm sure if a few guys started using the chun guard and dominated in MMA other fighters would pick it up, but coming up with it and training in such a way as to make use of it, that's not happening.

The problem is that the few guys who did use the chun guard got smashed in MMA. So until what you describe happens, stating that the Chun guard is equal to proven methods like the boxing or even muay thai guard is a dubious statement.

Hence the difference between modern styles and traditional styles. If WC was a modern style, they would dump an ineffective guard and adopt an effective guard.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The problem is that the few guys who did use the chun guard got smashed in MMA.

I assume you are talking about the WC guard like this, One arm almost extend and another hand is next to the elbow joint. IMO, if the back hand can move to the wrist area (similar to the rhino guard), the back hand will almost have the same reach as the front hand, that will solve 1 long arm and 1 short arm problem.

This traditional WC guard can protect the chest area more that the head area. It's not like the boxing guard, or the rhino guard that you can hide your head behind it. So when your opponent attacks your head like a mad man, this traditional WC guard won't do you much good.

There are only limited number of effective guards:

1. Boxing guard that both hands are close to your head. You protect both sides but leave your center open.
2. WC guard that has 1 hand near by your opponent and 1 hand close to yourself. You protect your center but leave both sides open.
3. Rhino guard that has both hands near by your opponent and you can hide your head behind it. You protect your center, at the same time you also protect both sides.

 

[Hanzou]

I assume you are talking about the WC guard like this, One arm almost extend and another hand is next to the elbow joint. IMO, if the back hand can move to the wrist area (similar to the rhino guard), the back hand will almost have the same reach as the front hand, that will solve 1 long arm and 1 short arm problem.

This traditional WC guard can protect the chest area more that the head area. It's not like the boxing guard, or the rhino guard that you can hide your head behind it. So when your opponent attacks your head like a mad man, this traditional WC guard won't do you much good.

There are only limited number of effective guards:

1. Boxing guard that both hands are close to your head. You protect both sides but leave your center open.
2. WC guard that has 1 hand near by your opponent and 1 hand close to yourself. You protect your center but leave both sides open.
3. Rhino guard that has both hands near by your opponent and you can hide your head behind it. You protect your center, at the same time you also protect both sides.

Yeah that's the one. While the boxing guard certainly has flaws, it's modified form in competitive MA has proven its effectiveness. Additionally boxing's attributes (footwork, clench, evasiveness, simplicity) help sure up any holes in the guard itself.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yeah that's the one. While the boxing guard certainly has flaws, it's modified form in competitive MA has proven its effectiveness. Additionally boxing's attributes (footwork, clench, evasiveness, simplicity) help sure up any holes in the guard itself.

Agree! The boxing mobility footwork has fixed the weakness of the boxing guard (expose the center). Also to expose the center is a good way to invite your opponent to punch between your arms so you can interrupt his punch with hooks from both sides. This is why I have always believed that the hook punch is the best counter for the straight punch.

May be to add the hook punch into the WC system is the best solution. But the WC guard is not suitable for double hooks.

 

[drop bear]

I don't dispute either the evolution of fighting or the superiority of modern fighters.

But knowledge doesn't just blossom out of thin air. Fighters go to a gym and get taught one way to do things.

If they are never taught an extended centre guard or how to use it they will not just magically start doing it. Nor are they likely to spend the time and energy retraining themselves for a method they don't understand; especially if they are swayed by wing chun beatdown videos.

I'm sure if a few guys started using the chun guard and dominated in MMA other fighters would pick it up, but coming up with it and training in such a way as to make use of it, that's not happening.

That is not really how a MMA gym works

 

[DaveB]

The problem is that the few guys who did use the chun guard got smashed in MMA. So until what you describe happens, stating that the Chun guard is equal to proven methods like the boxing or even muay thai guard is a dubious statement.

Hence the difference between modern styles and traditional styles. If WC was a modern style, they would dump an ineffective guard and adopt an effective guard.

Except its not been proven an ineffective method. Again, if the chun guard is ineffective because people got beaten while using it, then the boxing guard is doubly ineffective as many more people lost using it. Those boxers lost because they were punched, so clearly their guard failed.

Come on people, think critically before we all end up living on rafts, its not that hard. Look at the problem and just consider the causes that got you there. And don't stop at the first one.

Wing chun guy loses fight NOT= Wing chun sucks OR elements that (in your untrained eye) make Chun suck.

WHY? Because individual's train to win fights and a better opponent does NOT= a better style. No rocket science involved.

Drop Bear asked if any chun guys have fought anybody good using the chun guard.
The question he should have asked is have we seen any chun fighters with comparable training to their MMA opponents?

Strength, speed, stamina, number of punches thrown, number defended, time sparring etc etc etc

That is the only question that matters and until it's been answered in the affirmative we can't even begin to examine fighting style.

Wing chun and it's various components may all be useless but right now it is not even remotely proven.

Please FLG think deeper.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The

- boxing guard is used to punch through your opponent's side doors (outside arms).
- WC guard is used to punch through your opponent's front door (between arms).

Both guards are suitable for different purposes. The question is whether you understand the weakness of your guard and seal up the hole that you have created.

IMO, if a WC guy has not fought against a boxer, he problem won't expect right hook, left hook that come through both sides of his center line.

 

[Hanzou]

Except its not been proven an ineffective method. Again, if the chun guard is ineffective because people got beaten while using it, then the boxing guard is doubly ineffective as many more people lost using it. Those boxers lost because they were punched, so clearly their guard failed.

The difference is that the boxing guard was defeated by other boxing guards. Essentially, a person using boxing got beat by another person using boxing. When that happens, that's the individual, not the guard itself.

In the case of the WC guard, we have multiple examples of people using it against the boxer guard and failing miserably due to inherent weaknesses within the guard itself, and the system of techniques surrounding it. Again, how do we know that it is ineffective? Because professional Wing Chun fighters dont even use it. Hell, when the Chinese developed Sanda the used western boxing over their native martial arts for a reason. Professional fighting is a results driven industry, not a theory based industry.

Come on people, think critically before we all end up living on rafts, its not that hard. Look at the problem and just consider the causes that got you there. And don't stop at the first one.

Wing chun guy loses fight NOT= Wing chun sucks OR elements that (in your untrained eye) make Chun suck.

Yeah, nobody said Wing Chun sucks. I simply said that the guard they use is archiac and not equal to the modern boxing guard that just about every professional fighter uses.

People do martial arts for different reasons. If you want to learn WC, that's fine. However, if someone asked me what the best and most effective striking art to take was, I couldn't in good faith suggest WC to them.

WHY? Because individual's train to win fights and a better opponent does NOT= a better style. No rocket science involved.

It isnt only about winning fights, it's about what people who fight for a living utilize as well. Clearly the two are related though; If some WC exponent emerged on the scene and was ripping professional fighters apart with Wing Chun, there would be no argument. Since that has NEVER happened, and appears that it will NEVER happen, we're having this discussion.

 

[DaveB]

The difference is that the boxing guard was defeated by other boxing guards. Essentially, a person using boxing got beat by another person using boxing. When that happens, that's the individual, not the guard itself.

In the case of the WC guard, we have multiple examples of people using it against the boxer guard and failing miserably due to inherent weaknesses within the guard itself, and the system of techniques surrounding it. Again, how do we know that it is ineffective? Because professional Wing Chun fighters dont even use it. Hell, when the Chinese developed Sanda the used western boxing over their native martial arts for a reason. Professional fighting is a results driven industry, not a theory based industry.



Yeah, nobody said Wing Chun sucks. I simply said that the guard they use is archiac and not equal to the modern boxing guard that just about every professional fighter uses.

People do martial arts for different reasons. If you want to learn WC, that's fine. However, if someone asked me what the best and most effective striking art to take was, I couldn't in good faith suggest WC to them.



It isnt only about winning fights, it's about what people who fight for a living utilize as well. Clearly the two are related though; If some WC exponent emerged on the scene and was ripping professional fighters apart with Wing Chun, there would be no argument. Since that has NEVER happened, and appears that it will NEVER happen, we're having this discussion.

 

[drop bear]

Except its not been proven an ineffective method. Again, if the chun guard is ineffective because people got beaten while using it, then the boxing guard is doubly ineffective as many more people lost using it. Those boxers lost because they were punched, so clearly their guard failed.

Come on people, think critically before we all end up living on rafts, its not that hard. Look at the problem and just consider the causes that got you there. And don't stop at the first one.

Wing chun guy loses fight NOT= Wing chun sucks OR elements that (in your untrained eye) make Chun suck.

WHY? Because individual's train to win fights and a better opponent does NOT= a better style. No rocket science involved.

Drop Bear asked if any chun guys have fought anybody good using the chun guard.
The question he should have asked is have we seen any chun fighters with comparable training to their MMA opponents?

Strength, speed, stamina, number of punches thrown, number defended, time sparring etc etc etc

That is the only question that matters and until it's been answered in the affirmative we can't even begin to examine fighting style.

Wing chun and it's various components may all be useless but right now it is not even remotely proven.

Please FLG think deeper.

You are suggesting that because there is one branch of culture that leads to martial art mediocrity. That their isn't more elements that also contribute.

So you may not find the level of athleticism in training.

You may not have the talent pool or level of individual competence.

And you may have a system that is not efficient.

You can't suggest your system works because of a failure in other areas of development. That is silly.

 

[drop bear]

I mean ok. Let's look at this simply.

If someone has a school with ten great fighters an two duds it is probably those two individuals just are not very good.

If someone has a school and nobody can fight. It is probably the teacher.

If there are multiple schools with multiple teachers. It is probably the system.

The larger a sample size we look at the less likely it is to be the individual.

Or am I missing something.