The Wing Chun fighting stance explained

Kung Fu Wang

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He looks like someone who never dealt with round punches.
This is the problem when people only look MA from his own MA style point of view.

- WC guys fight against WC guys.
- TKD guys fight against TKD guys.
- Wrestlers fight against wrestlers.
- Judo guys fight against Judo guys.
- ...

The chance that you will have to fight against someone from your own school is very small.

When we discuss grabbing, Taiji guys may say that they don't grab. Since their opponent may grab on them, they still have to train how to deal with it.

The problem is if your teacher only has trained one MA system, how will he be able to teach you dealing with other MA systems?
 
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drop bear

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If they compete. Most do not. Its a reasonable assumption that those who dont compete are less capable than those who do, but it doesnt set an objective standard for competence.

You are either basing it on something or basing it on nothing.

People who compete are more capable than those who don't.

It is a system that works.
 

JowGaWolf

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Every time that we discuss WC chain punches, I like to put up this clip.



In order for your opponent to punch through your side doors,

- his right arm has to go through the left side of your left arm, and
- his left arm has to go through the right side of your right arm.

This will give you a perfect opportunity to separate his arms away from his head. You can then occupy his front door.

IMO, the WC system may only emphasize the center line theory as a striking art. It doesn't address the "front door control" from the throwing art point of view.

Here is an example when a wrestler controls his opponent's front door. When your arm can separate your opponent's arms away from his head, you will have many advantages.

This only works if you don't punch. If you punch with that hand then you give up that ability to do this.
My comment is in reference into the opportunity for someone to put me in at head lock. Also hooks don't travel horizontally. If you get a diagonal hook that comes at an angle then you won't have that opportunity.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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This only works if you don't punch. If you punch with that hand then you give up that ability to do this.
My comment is in reference into the opportunity for someone to put me in at head lock. Also hooks don't travel horizontally. If you get a diagonal hook that comes at an angle then you won't have that opportunity.
Agree! to fully test the

- "anti-grappling", you have to find a good grappler.
- "anti-striking", you have to find a good striker.

People said that when you test

- "anti-grappling", you have to mimic a good grappler.
- "anti-striking", you have to mimic a good striker.

But IMO, if you can mimic a good grappler (or striker), you are already a good grappler (or striker).

Can you mimic yourself as float like a butterfly, sting like a bee? I truly don't think I can.
 
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JowGaWolf

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Agree! to fully test the

- "anti-grappling", you have to find a good grappler.
- "anti-striking", you have to find a good striker.

People said that when you test

- "anti-grappling", you have to mimic a good grappler.
- "anti-striking", you have to mimic a good striker.

But IMO, if you can mimic a good grappler (or striker), you are already a good grappler (or striker).

yep. it's a common mistake.

This looks like a bee, but it will never attack like a bee and it will never have a bee's strategy
Hoverfly.jpg


This is a bee, so if you have to test something that will be used deal with a bee attack then. You gotta find the real thing. It may not be the most skilled bee in the hive, but it's still a bee. If I want to test my skills against a grappler then I need to find a grappler. But so may school do like you stated. Mimic.
yellow-jacket-in-greenville.jpg
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 

Kung Fu Wang

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If you get a diagonal hook that comes at an angle then you won't have that opportunity.
The following clip is similar to the WC

- left Tan Shou with right punch, followed by
- right Tan Shou with left punch.

- Your opponent uses right hook punch at you.
- You use left hand to block his right punching arm, use right hand to push on his right shoulder. (This is similar to WC Left Tan Shou with right face punch).
- This will let your right side door complete open.
- When your opponent uses left hook punch at your right, you use right arm to wrap his left arm (This is similar to WC right Tan Shou with left face punch), and ...

What do you think about the successful rate of this move? Do you think this training has any combat value?

 
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Gerry Seymour

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You are either basing it on something or basing it on nothing.

People who compete are more capable than those who don't.

It is a system that works.
Not completely competing is not 矇quivalent to basing it on nothing.

People who are going to compete probably typically push themselves to a higher level of functional competence. That certainly seems true of some forms of competition.
 

JowGaWolf

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What do you think about the successful rate of this move? Do you think this training has any combat value?
Do be honest I have no idea. Maybe against a long hook hook that is similar to what is shown, but a shorter hook will probably get through. The problem with hooks is that they can be like a pick axe
images

Even if you block the arm of the pick axe you will still get the metal. Hook punches are like this. If the hook is long then that will be you best choice for trying that move. I also know know what is the follow up move when the person tries to back out. For example, if a person feels that their arm is caught then their natural reaction may be to duck and pull backwards in order to free their arm. If that happens then it may take away your opportunity to grab the head.

Hard to say you would have to try it with a variety of hook punches.
 

Tez3

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yep. it's a common mistake.

This looks like a bee, but it will never attack like a bee and it will never have a bee's strategy
Hoverfly.jpg


This is a bee, so if you have to test something that will be used deal with a bee attack then. You gotta find the real thing. It may not be the most skilled bee in the hive, but it's still a bee. If I want to test my skills against a grappler then I need to find a grappler. But so may school do like you stated. Mimic.
yellow-jacket-in-greenville.jpg
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]


Neither of them are bees, the one you said was a bee is a wasp.
 

JowGaWolf

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Neither of them are bees, the one you said was a bee is a wasp.
Tez corrects me once again. Change Bee to Wasp
 
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Hanzou

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He looks like someone who never dealt with round punches (as KFW pointed out, that's a visible weakness in the traditional guard). He might have done a bit better if he could have gotten inside, but he wasn't equipped to make that move from as far away as was necessary to overcome those long arms.

This is an area where an overly-limited view of WC probably makes weaknesses into gaps. And when you add the reach advantage, nearly all weaknesses become even weaker.

That's sort of my point; WC is supposedly designed to deal with these situations and it has failed in that purpose consistently. What does that say about the system in question's strengths are actually glaring weaknesses.
 

JowGaWolf

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That's sort of my point; WC is supposedly designed to deal with these situations and it has failed in that purpose consistently. What does that say about the system in question's strengths are actually glaring weaknesses.
I think what you are talking about is an exaggeration of Wing Chun fans and not the reality of it. You have to separate the two. Even professional fighters sometimes have difficulty in getting on the inside. I've sparred and have had real street fights against someone with longer limbs and I don't ever remember it being easy. I also remember understanding clearly the disadvantage I was in. There was not magic bullet, to get me inside. Just a lot of footwork.

The only real problem with Wing Chun is with the students who make the assumptions that an opponent is going to punch like Wing Chun Class mates. If you are a Wing Chun student, non wing chun students don't spar like this.

If you are a Wing Chun Student then this is what you have to be able to apply your Wing Chun to.

It's not the system. It's the student in the second video is getting better Wing Chun application training.

In terms of fighting someone with a longer reach. I've been unfortunate to be smaller than most people I spar against, since starting martial arts so I had no choice but to learn. But this isn't the norm for most people. Most schools wouldn't even match up students with that much of a disadvantage as what they Wing Chun guy had with reach.
 

Gerry Seymour

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That's sort of my point; WC is supposedly designed to deal with these situations and it has failed in that purpose consistently. What does that say about the system in question's strengths are actually glaring weaknesses.
I don't have any experience with WC to draw from, but what I've seen looks like it could work as part of a complete package. I don't know if some styles of WC have that complete package.

It's probably less efficient than a boxing approach, but "less effective" isn't the same as "ineffective". I'd need to experience sparring with some WC folks to get a better feel. I missed one of my chances when one of our MT brethern was in the area this year - we got into discussing and playing with other areas and never got around to sparring.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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WC is a CMA system. All CMA has both striking art and grappling art. Boxing is a 100% striking art. Should a WC guy think about how to use his grappling skill to deal with his opponent's striking skill?

Should a WC guy think about how to obtain a clinch instead of thinking about how to exchange punches with his boxer opponent?

For example, to use WC

- Tan Shou to set up arm wrap. The left Tan Shou and right punch, right Tan Shou and left punch is a good combo to be used in the grappling art.
- Fu Shou to set up a reverse head lock (guillotine).
- Bon Shou to hide your head during clinch.
- ...

IMO, the future direction of the WC system is not to move toward 100% striking art but to enhance the grappling art within the WC system. The same logic should also apply to the other CMA systems such as Taiji, XingYi, long fist, preying mantis, Baji, ...
 
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drop bear

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That's sort of my point; WC is supposedly designed to deal with these situations and it has failed in that purpose consistently. What does that say about the system in question's strengths are actually glaring weaknesses.

It requires a certain type of fighter as well. Which is the bit I don't like.

Mike Tyson pressure fights so therefore I can.

I mean that sounds right doesn't it?


One of the other issues there is people look at fighters like Tyson and think that is just an awesome way to bash a guy. Who would want to be a boring counter fighter?

But to actually do it is a different story.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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IMO, WC is not the only MA system that may have problem to deal with boxing. Almost all CMA systems also have this problem.

We should use kicking and grappling to deal with boxing. We should not use punching to deal with boxing.

 

Gerry Seymour

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IMO, WC is not the only MA system that may have problem to deal with boxing. Almost all CMA systems also have this problem.

We should use kicking and grappling to deal with boxing. We should not use punching to deal with boxing.

One of my instructors was a golden gloves boxer before he got into JMA, and had to use his ability as a LEO (as an aside, he also taught DT). He often said, "If they want to box, I'll grapple. If they want to grapple, I'll box." This, from a guy who in his mid-60's was still stepping into the ring with new academy trainees to show he could out-box them.
 

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IMO, WC is not the only MA system that may have problem to deal with boxing. Almost all CMA systems also have this problem.

We should use kicking and grappling to deal with boxing. We should not use punching to deal with boxing.

In general, IMO western boxing is the pinnacle of development in striking arts. So you learn to play their game if you want to be successful striking with them, or you don't play their game at all....as John notes. Put a good Boxer against a good Wing Chun guy (or any TCMA) and they both have the same amount of training, and I'll put my money on the Boxer every time.
 

Tez3

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Tez corrects me once again. Change Bee to Wasp

Both bees and wasps are very useful creatures, there are many different species of both however due to actions of certain governments ( and Presidents) bees may die out and then we are going to be very very sorry. Wasps are also useful though people seem to hate them.
flat,800x800,075,f.u1.jpg
 

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